Session 3.01 and 3.07 - Season Overview

Why does it have to take 3 episodes to cross the sea by ship? It wouldn't have taken them more than may be a month, tops. Probably less than that.
 
I agree it should take them four or five weeks. But you can’t really translate weeks or years into episodes. If we did, Fingolfin would arrive from the Helcaraxë crossing after three seasons or something (not a calculation but a rough estimate). The point of the three episodes is to give the feeling that it takes time. If they leave at the end of an episode and arrive in the next, we get the feeling that it was an easy and rather short journey. But it’s the biggest sea there is? And in season two we worked on the feeling of distance between Valinor and Middle-earth. So a short trip would feel weird.
That being said, if we at the same time show a lot of time passing in Middle-earth, a crossing in two episodes could work. That would give us more room to make the Helcaraxë crossing longer.
 
It is the point where the sea is narrowest, and they are in ships. I think it's fair to show it being easy for them -- the contrast of a safe, easy, fast trip for the Feanorians vs. the horrible, arduous, terrifying, miserable, traumatic, sloooowww crossing of the Ice which perhaps a quarter of Fingolfin's folk didn't even survive.
 
Non-instantaneous does not mean dragged out for three episodes!

I mostly meant that we have to show at least one scene of them at sea, in between the departure and arrival, so it doesn't feel like you could throw a stone from Valinor to Beleriand. Or, if they depart in one episode, and arrive in the next, that's fine. I agree that the crossing should seem quick and painless in contrast to the Helcaraxë.

I am not opposed to using a vision or dream to show Fingolfin the burning of the ships. I think that can be a very useful plot device. My opposition is to this vision being a premonition. I would want him to have the vision *after* the event has happened (or potentially in real time). The viewer should know about the Shipburning, know that Fëanor isn't coming back, before Fingolfin figures that out.

The decision of whether or not to kill Amrod in the Shipburning has not been definitively made, as we haven't gotten to that episode yet, but certainly a lot of people support it and it does make the scene more meaningful. It has come up, and the Execs seem fine with it. We will see when we get there, but chances are very good we're using that version of the story. No harm in conservatively putting a question mark on his death at this point, but the plan is to use it.



The decision to leave the Noldor storyline hanging while we return to Beleriand has been made. So, yes, we're just dropping the Noldor in the beginning of Episode 3, and not returning to them until the Doom of Mandos. The viewers can assume that nothing much has happened with them in the gap.
 
Haakon said:
Ok I probably won’t have time to look at this today but perhaps tomorrow. One problem that we have to solve that I can see right away though is What about Helcaraxë? With a compressed timeline, the long crossing (what is it in the book, ten years?) won’t work. I see a risk of diminishing it.
Click to expand...
I can't find the post I wanted to reply to, so here's a semi-relevant quote. Somebody (Haerangil?) had said that there appears to be something goofy going on in the Annals of Aman after from the Doom of Mandos to the Rising of the Sun, and I reviewed the Annals last night. It does look like Tolkien, while writing the annals, had soon forgotten that he made one Year of the Trees equal almost 10 solar years. So he recorded long stretches of time during which:
  • The Noldor prepare their departure, then march and sail north though Araman, for a total of ~25-29 years. Apparently ~9 years were preparation and Kinslaying.
  • Fingolfin's host wandered around northern Araman looking for another crossing for ~19-22 years, then spent ~9-10 years crossing the Helkaraxe. The majority survived.
  • Maedhros was hung on Thangorodrim for 33-34 years without dying of starvation, thirst, or cold.
  • The Valar sat at moot in Mahanaxar from the Darkening of Valinor until "the Valar learned that the Noldor had indeed passed out of Aman and were come back into Middle-earth" -- if that refers only to Feanor's host (as is most likely), the Valar sat in moot for ~25-29 years, and spent ~20-21 years creating the Sun and Moon. If it refers to Fingolfin's host setting foot on the Helkaraxe (less likely, since their crossing overlaps the creation of the Sun and Moon) they sat in moot for ~47 years!
I was willing to accept the first three, more or less, as indications of the hugeness of Aman, the slow way Elves do nearly everything, and the mind-boggling hardiness of Calaquendi.

But that last one is.... um... well it puts Entmoots to shame. The Valar "were not idle" and perhaps spent much of their time and energy pushing the remaining taints of Morgoth and Ungoliante out of Aman. But still.... taking that long to create the Sun and Moon is epic. But if it took them that long to agree on what to do? Yes they were reviewing the entire Ainulindale and discussing everything very carefully, realizing they'd make big mistakes and not wanting to make more. Scientific committees can take years to conduct and discuss research and come to conclusions and recommendations about very difficult topics. But 25 years is a long time.


So... I'll drop my objections to compressing the timeline somewhat, and/or making Fingolfin start on the Helkaraxe sooner rather than later, for this adaptation.
 
Last edited:
Haakon said:
Well what can I say? I dislike the solution for the reasons I mentioned. :)
Click to expand...


Well, yeah... I need to start being more foresighted in the way that I object to non-linear story-telling in the future. Had I brought up this problem back when I was fighting to keep us in Beleriand for all of S02, we might not have had it at all.

And they think I'm joking about trying to push B&L back to S06...
 
Oh, I know you're not joking about that. I have...concerns...about the 450 year long Season 4 we have planned. And the Execs continue to joke about 'Of Beleriand and its Realms' being an uneventful stretch of text.

Things that have to happen after Season 3 (which ends with the rising of the sun) and the beginning of the Beren/Luthien story:

Fingon rescues Maedhros
Maedhros acknowledges Fingolfin as High King
Yes, yes, the Noldor establish some realms...
Romance/Marriage of Galadriel and Celeborn (and anyone else we need to have kids before the wars)
Feast of Reuniting
Dagor Aglareb
Thingol finds out about the Kinslaying
Daeron's interest in Luthien and her blowing him off
Finrod and Turgon have their dreams from Ulmo to build secret fortresses - Nargothrond and Gondolin
Oh hi there Glaurung
Caranthir meets dwarves
Finrod meets Men
Aredhel leaves Gondolin, meets Eol, has Maeglin, and the two of them go back to Gondolin
Romance/Non-marriage of Aegnor and Andreth
Haleth's battle with the orcs - she meets Caranthir; leads her people through Nan Dungortheb
Hador in Dor Lomin
Battle of Sudden Flame
Barahir saves Finrod in the retreat
Death of Fingolfin


Here's the snippet from the Annals that covers First Age 5-455:

5 Fingon rescues Maedhros and the Noldor are reunited.
7 Sons of Fëanor leave Mithrim.
20 Fingolfin holds the Feast of Reuniting
52 Finrod begins to build Nargothrond
53 Turgon discovers the site of Gondolin
60 Dagor Aglareb. Morgoth invades Beleriand and is defeated.
64 Turgon begins the building of Gondolin
67 Thingol bans Quenya from Doriath
102 Nargothrond is completed
116 Gondolin is completed
150 Caranthir makes contact with the Dwarves
155 Morgoth attempts to attack Hithlum and is driven off
260 Glaurung invades Ard-galen and is repelled by Fingon (2)
310 Finrod meets Bëor (7)
312 Haladin enter Beleriand
313 People of Marach enter Beleriand
316 Aredhel encounters Eöl
320 Birth of Maeglin
355 Death of Bëor
369 Bereg leads some of the Edain back to the East
375 Haleth becomes chief of the Haladin
376 Haladin settle in Estolad
390 Haladin leave Estolad
400 Aredhel and Maeglin ride to Gondolin. Deaths of Aredhel and Eöl.
410 Boromir of the House of Bëor becomes lord of Ladros in Dorthonion
416 Fingolfin gives Dorlómin to Hador
420 Death of Haleth
432 Birth of Beren
441 Birth of Húrin
443 Birth of Morwen
444 Birth of Huor
455 Dagor Bragollach. Deaths of Angrod and Aegnor.
456 Death of Fingolfin
 
And the Athrabeth happens.
And the Noldor rebuild Brithombar and Eglarest.
And if the audience should care about how old the Dragon-Helm is instead of just declaring it an heirloom of Hador in a later chapter, you would need to bring it up. (This is really minor though.)

(I would quibble that Luthien is more gentle to her best friend Daeron than "blowing him off" but they're going to have to stay "just friends.")
 
Again, i know i said it before... I would have liked the galadriel- celeborn romance better in valinor, it would have fit wirh galadriels longing for the sea and far lands. Now we have a subplot romance at thingol's court... Not a problem, but not my first choice either.

And i still would like to have a cuivienen- hildorien story next season... Recycling bits from the atheabeth and the tu- nuin storyline from lost tales..
 
Haha, yes, I was overstating Lúthien's desire to be 'just friends' with Daeron. But still, that does need to be in there.
Andreth I mentioned.

The dwarf storylines are something I'm curious about. After we've fleshed out the dwarf-elf relationships in Season 3, we won't just drop them in Season 4. No doubt they'll be part of the Eöl storyline, but what other roles do they play? TBD, I guess.

As for Celeborn, we had him as an elf at Cuivienen, and closer to Elwë than Olwë. So, it wasn't too surprising that he wound up as one of the Sindar in our story. He's the voice of someone who has never left Middle Earth. It is going to be weird to have him and Galadriel be a love-at-first-sight story, but, well, there you are.

I guess one season at a time, though.
 
MithLuin said:
It is going to be weird to have him and Galadriel be a love-at-first-sight story, but, well, there you are.
Click to expand...

I've been spending some of my spare time thinking about this exact thing (no recordable conclusions yet, just vague impressions). As a Celeborn "booster", at least in my heart, it's near and dear to me. One season at a time... But I think we might need to invest a bit of screen time in Celeborn today, in order to have him be worth attention later. To the point of maybe having him steal bits and pieces of story roles from other Sindar.
 
Faelivrin said:
And the Athrabeth happens.
And the Noldor rebuild Brithombar and Eglarest.
And if the audience should care about how old the Dragon-Helm is instead of just declaring it an heirloom of Hador in a later chapter, you would need to bring it up. (This is really minor though.)

(I would quibble that Luthien is more gentle to her best friend Daeron than "blowing him off" but they're going to have to stay "just friends.")
Click to expand...
And Daeron goes to the friendzone.
 
  1. Rebellion of the Noldor. Funeral of Finwë, debate of the Noldor, Fëanor's Oath;
  2. The Kinslaying. Valar non-interference. Deaths of Olwë and Irimë. Noldor steal the ships and escape.
  3. Meanwhile in Beleriand. Uinen's storm. Beleriand in peacetime. Thingol's court, Círdan's havens, Eöl's misanthropy. Eöl and Mîm. Sindar encounter orcs. Angband: Morgoth takes over the Orc Project and the raising of Thangorodrim. Boldog introduced and Sauron sent to find Ungoliant.
  4. Khazad Ai Menu! First contact between Sindar and dwarves. Tentative alliance sought. Orc skirmish, wolves roam. Sauron meets Shelob.
  5. Safe Haven. Mim ejected from Menegroth (moves to Amon Rudh) and construction begins. Eöl buys Nan Elmoth with Anglachel. Sauron learns that there is a hidden elven kingdom in Doriath.
  6. Distant cousins. Boldog sent south under Sauron's command. He moves south east of Doriath. (Eöl hides) Thingol goes to meet but is forced to retreat. Sauron moves south with werewolves and wolves along Sirion towards the Havens.
  7. Doom of Mandos. Return to Noldor in Araman. Finarfin turns back. Angband: Sauron sends werewolves against the Havens; Beleriand: Círdan's people retreat to their ships. Thingol retreat to Amon Ereb.
  8. Betrayal. Fëanor arrives in Middle Earth. Argument with Maedhros. Shipburning. Death of Amrod. Valinor:Finarfin is forgiven upon his return. Fingolfin (via vision or dream) realizes he's been abandoned. Beleriand:Fires seen by Círdan. Angband: Fires seen by Gothmog. Sauron sets his plan in motion.
  9. Dagor-nuin-Giliath. Fëanor's forces mow down the orcs and push back Gothmog. South Beleriand: Boldog's forces mow down Green Elves. Death of Denethor. Green elves and ents retreat to Ossiriand. Thingol retreat to Doriath. Valinor: Fingolfin sets out on the Helcaraxë.
  10. Ice Desert. The Crossing of the Helcaraxë. Beleriand: Doriath overrun by Shelob's spiders. Angband: Gothmog retreats, but Fëanor is surrounded by balrogs near the gates of Angband.
  11. Spirit of Fire. Death of Fëanor. Sons renew the Oath. Valinor: Making of the Sun and Moon. Auroras seen on the Helcaraxë. Death of Elenwë. Beleriand: Melian emerges from Menegroth and creates the Girdle to dispel the spiders.
  12. Arrivals. Rising of the Moon. Fingolfin arrives from the Helcaraxë. Círdan discovers the burnt ships. Sauron returns to Angband. Emissary from Angband offers to parlay with the Sons of Fëanor. Maedhros accepts, despite his brothers' protests.
  13. Despair and Hope. Capture of Maedhros. His brothers refuse terms for his release. Morgoth nails him to the cliff. Fingolfin reaches Mithrim. Rising of the Sun. Círdan's messenger reaches Thingol to tell him of the arrival of the Noldor.
 
Last edited:
Haakon said:
  1. Rebellion of the Noldor. Funeral of Finwë, debate of the Noldor, Fëanor's Oath;
  2. The Kinslaying. Valar non-interference. Deaths of Olwë and Irimë. Noldor steal the ships and escape.
  3. Meanwhile in Beleriand. Uinen's storm. Beleriand in peacetime. Thingol's court, Círdan's havens, Eöl's misanthropy. Eöl and Mîm. Sindar encounter orcs. Angband: Morgoth takes over the Orc Project and the raising of Thangorodrim. Boldog introduced and Sauron sent to find Ungoliant.
  4. Khazad Ai Menu! First contact between Sindar and dwarves. Tentative alliance sought. Orc skirmish, wolves roam. Sauron meets Shelob.
  5. Safe Haven. Mim ejected from Menegroth (moves to Amon Rudh) and construction begins. Eöl buys Nan Elmoth with Anglachel. Sauron learns that there is a hidden elven kingdom in Doriath.
  6. Distant cousins. Boldog sent south under Sauron's command. Sauron moves south east of Doriath. (Eöl hides) Thingol goes to meet but is forced to retreat.
  7. Doom of Mandos. Return to Noldor in Araman. Finarfin turns back. Angband: Sauron sends werewolves against the Havens; Beleriand: Círdan's people retreat to their ships. Thingol retreat to Amon Ereb.
  8. Betrayal. Fëanor arrives in Middle Earth. Argument with Maedhros. Shipburning. Death of Amrod. Valinor:Finarfin is forgiven upon his return. Fingolfin (via vision or dream) realizes he's been abandoned. Beleriand:Fires seen by Círdan. Angband: Fires seen by Gothmog. Sauron sets his plan in motion.
  9. Dagor-nuin-Giliath. Fëanor's forces mow down the orcs and push back Gothmog. South Beleriand: Boldog's forces mow down Green Elves. Death of Denethor. Green elves and ents retreat to Ossiriand. Thingol retreat to Doriath. Valinor: Fingolfin sets out on the Helcaraxë.
  10. Ice Desert. The Crossing of the Helcaraxë. Beleriand: Doriath overrun by Shelob's spiders. Angband: Gothmog retreats, but Fëanor is surrounded by balrogs near the gates of Angband.
  11. Spirit of Fire. Death of Fëanor. Sons renew the Oath. Valinor: Making of the Sun and Moon. Auroras seen on the Helcaraxë. Death of Elenwë. Beleriand: Melian emerges from Menegroth and creates the Girdle to dispel the spiders.
  12. Arrivals. Rising of the Moon. Fingolfin arrives from the Helcaraxë. Círdan discovers the burnt ships. Sauron returns to Angband. Emissary from Angband offers to parlay with the Sons of Fëanor. Maedhros accepts, despite his brothers' protests.
  13. Despair and Hope. Capture of Maedhros. His brothers refuse terms for his release. Morgoth nails him to the cliff. Fingolfin reaches Mithrim. Rising of the Sun. Círdan's messenger reaches Thingol to tell him of the arrival of the Noldor.
Click to expand...
Ok I thought next session was next Friday. Anyway, I made some adjustments...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top