Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
I forgot today is Thursday.
Session 3.01 and 3.07 - Season Overview
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
I think Mim and the other Petty-Dwarves also dwelled in Nulukkizdim (Nargothrond) at this time, so they'd regroup there. Until the Eryd Luin Dwarves "gave" Nargothrond to Finrod.
Overall this is good! Thank you for writing it.
But this version, different from previous versions, has got some events out of their canonical order. You have put the Second Battle before/during the First Battle, instead of after the First Battle. And you have Maedhros captured after the first Moonrise, instead of during/before the crossing of the Ice.
This is the order these events happened in the Annals (in Years of the Trees, each being ~9.6 solar years long):
1250 Dwarves of the Blue Mountains entered Beleriand. Beginning of trade relations between Dwarves and Elves. Fëanor invented the tengwar.
1300 Menegroth delved. Daeron invented the cirth.
1320-1330 Orcs entered Beleriand. Arming of the Grey Elves.
1350 The Green Elves entered Ossiriand
1400 Unchaining of Melkor
1449-1450 Fëanor made the Silmarils
1450-1490 Melkor corrupted the Ñoldor
1490 Fëanor banished from Tirion, went to Formenos
1492 Morgoth appeared at Formenos, then entered Avathar
1495 Darkening of Valinor. Ungoliantë fled to Nan Dungortheb. Morgoth rebuilt Angband and raised up Thangorodrim. (After this time, the Entwives moved east across the Anduin and made new gardens near the south Vales.) Rebellion of the Ñoldor, Oath of Fëanor, Kinslaying.
1496 Doom of the Ñoldor. Finarfin and Rúmil turned back.
1497 First Battle of Beleriand and siege of the Havens. Denethor slain. Guest-Elves entered Doriath. Melian set her Girdle. Eöl moved to Nan Elmoth. The Dwarves left Beleriand.
1497 (~7 solar years later) Ñoldor reached the Helkaraksë. Fëanor abandoned Fingolfin. Burning of the ships, death of Amrod. First meeting of Grey Elves and Ñoldor. Dagor- nuin-Giliath. Fëanor slain. Capture of Maedhros.
1497-1500 The Valar made the Moon and Sun. Fingolfin's host "wandered long in misery".
1498 Morgoth hung Maedhros on Thangorodrim. The Fëanorians settled Lake Mithrim.
1500 Fingolfin’s host crossed the Helkaraksë. Death of Elenwë.
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You didn’t listen to the last session, I guess. I have done what I can about the order. Besides, this timeline has been left untouched since MithLuin posted it and I just made some touches because I simply don’t have time and energy to battle these problems more than I have.
Yeah it’s ok. We can work things out as we go.
Sorry, I am nowhere close to caught up on the audio sessions. I only started posting here a month ago? It will take me months or years to catch up on listening to all the sessions.
I'm quite disappointed that the execs aren't willing to fix the order of the first two battles.
I'm quite disappointed that the execs aren't willing to fix the order of the first two battles.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Why aren't they fixing the order?Sorry, I am nowhere close to caught up on the audio sessions. I only started posting here a month ago? It will take me months or years to catch up on listening to all the sessions.
I'm quite disappointed that the execs aren't willing to fix the order of the first two battles.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
So it takes 21 years to cross a semi-solid landmass of ice?
Ummm...they *are* willing to adjust the timeline of the battles, but they are putting the onus on us to make that work with storylines of the season. They have shifted the culminating event of the Beleriand storyline from the death of Denethor to the raising of the Girdle of Melian, so Denethor's death can be earlier.
So, anyone who wants to can take Haakon's rough outline above, and then tweak it so the battles are in the right place. Just don't...lose events in the mix.
So, anyone who wants to can take Haakon's rough outline above, and then tweak it so the battles are in the right place. Just don't...lose events in the mix.
So this is what I guess the outline is right now but I've added some comments:
- Rebellion of the Noldor. Funeral of Finwë, debate of the Noldor, Fëanor's Oath; Angband: Morgoth takes over the Orc Project and the raising of Thangorodrim
- The Kinslaying. Valar non-interference. Deaths of Olwë and Irimë. Noldor steal the ships and escape.
- Meanwhile in Beleriand. Uinen's storm. Beleriand in peacetime. Thingol's court, Círdan's havens, Sindar encounter orcs. Angband: Boldog introduced and Sauron sent to find Ungoliant.
- Khazad Ai Menu! Eöl's misanthropy (Talk about Nan Elmoth). First contact between Sindar and dwarves. Tentative alliance sought. Orc skirmish. (Thingol wants weapons) Angband: Sauron meets Shelob.
- Safe Haven. Mim ejected from Menegroth and construction begins. Dwarves make weapons. Eöl and dwarves. Angband: Boldog sent south under Sauron's command. I think this might be moved to e6; we should show Sauron's scouts searching for Sindar who have disappeared.
- Distant Cousins. The Green Elves and Ents arrive in Beleriand. I think Sauron's military campaign should begin at this point, he should send orcs under Boldog south between Doriath and Blue Mts., which will eventually lead to battle at/around Amon Ereb. He will himself lead wolves and werewolves south to the west of Doriath. We can discuss of course how far they get this eisode and at which point in time they should encounter elves, but given the magnitude of the campaign and the previous lack of story in this episode, it could fit here.
- Doom of Mandos. Return to Noldor in Araman. Finarfin turns back Angband: Sauron sends werewolves against the Havens; Beleriand: Círdan's people retreat to their ships.
- Betrayal. Fëanor arrives in Middle Earth. Argument with Maedhros. Shipburning. Death of Amrod. Valinor: Finarfin is forgiven upon his return. Fingolfin (via vision or dream) realizes he's been abandoned. Beleriand: Fires seen by Círdan. Angband: Fires seen by Gothmog. Sauron sets his plan in motion. (What plan is this?)
- Dagor-nuin-Giliath. Fëanor's forces mow down the orcs and push back Gothmog. South Beleriand: Boldog's forces mow down Green Elves. Death of Denethor. Green elves and ents retreat to Ossiriand. Eöl, who has been fighting along with the Dwarves, buys Nan Elmoth with Anglachel. Valinor: Fingolfin sets out on the Helcaraxë. The internal order of this eisode is not decided on. Apparently Corey feels that the two battles can happen at roughly the same time. Maybe there's room for some more nudging of the two.
- Ice Desert. The Crossing of the Helcaraxë. Death. Beleriand: Doriath overrun by Shelob's spiders. Angband: Gothmog retreats, but Fëanor is surrounded by balrogs near the gates of Angband.
- Spirit of Fire. Death of Fëanor. Sons renew the Oath. Valinor: Making of the Sun and Moon. Auroras seen on the Helcaraxë. Death of Elenwë. Beleriand: Melian emerges from Menegroth and creates the Girdle to dispel the spiders.
- Arrivals. Rising of the Moon. Fingolfin arrives from the Helcaraxë. Círdan discovers the burnt ships. Sauron returns to Angband. Emissary from Angband offers to parlay with the Sons of Fëanor. Maedhros accepts, despite his brothers' protests.
- Despair and Hope. Capture of Maedhros. His brothers refuse terms for his release. Morgoth nails him to the cliff. Fingolfin reaches Mithrim. Rising of the Sun. Círdan's messenger reaches Thingol to tell him of the arrival of the Noldor.
Awesome! So I will suggest changes to the order of events in Haakon's outline to be closer to the books. Changes in bold (events moved to a different ep. are also in purple):
- Rebellion of the Noldor. Funeral of Finwë, debate of the Noldor, Fëanor's Oath; Angband: Morgoth takes over the Orc Project and the raising of Thangorodrim
- The Kinslaying. Valar non-interference. Deaths of Olwë and Irimë. Noldor steal the ships and escape.
- Meanwhile in Beleriand. Uinen's storm. Beleriand in peacetime. Thingol's court, Círdan's havens, Sindar encounter orcs. Angband: Boldog introduced and Sauron sent to find Ungoliant.
- Khazad Ai Menu! Eöl's misanthropy (Talk about Nan Elmoth). First contact between Sindar and dwarves. Tentative alliance sought. Orc skirmish. (Thingol wants weapons) Angband: Sauron meets Shelob and other Children of Ungoliant.
- Safe Haven. Mim and other Petty-Dwarves ejected from Menegroth and construction begins. Dwarves make weapons. Eöl and Dwarves.
- Distant Cousins. The Green Elves and Ents arrive in Beleriand. Angband: Boldog sent south under Sauron's command.
- Doom of Mandos. Return to Noldor in Araman. Finarfin turns back. Angband: Sauron sends werewolves against the Havens; Beleriand: Círdan's people retreat to their ships.
- Betrayal. Fëanor arrives in Middle Earth. Argument with Maedhros. Shipburning. Death of Amrod. Valinor: Finarfin is forgiven upon his return. Fingolfin (via vision or dream) realizes he's been abandoned. Beleriand: Fires seen by Círdan. Angband: Fires seen by Gothmog. Sauron sets his plan in motion.
- South Beleriand: Boldog's forces mow down Green Elves. Death of Denethor. Green elves and Ents retreat to Ossiriand. Dagor-nuin-Giliath. Fëanor's forces mow down the orcs and push back Gothmog. Eöl fights along with the Dwarves. Valinor: Fingolfin sets out on the Helcaraxë.
- Ice Desert. The Crossing of the Helcaraxë. Death. Angband: Gothmog retreats, but Fëanor is surrounded by balrogs near the gates of Angband. Beleriand: Doriath overrun by Shelob's spiders.
- Spirit of Fire. Death of Fëanor. Sons renew the Oath and swear vengeance. Valinor: Making of the Sun and Moon. Auroras seen on the Helcaraxë. Death of Elenwë. Beleriand: Melian emerges from Menegroth and creates the Girdle to dispel the spiders.
- Arrivals. Emissary from Angband offers to parlay with the Sons of Fëanor. Maedhros accepts, despite his brothers' protests. Fingolfin arrives from the Helcaraxë. Rising of the Moon. Sauron returns to Angband. Eöl buys Nan Elmoth with Anglachel. Círdan discovers the burnt ships.
- Despair and Hope. Capture of Maedhros. His brothers refuse terms for his release. Morgoth chains him to the cliff. Fingolfin marches to Thangorodrim and then to Mithrim. Rising of the Sun. Círdan's messenger reaches Thingol to tell him of the arrival of the Noldor.
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Oops, I forgot that a very dramatic event has been left out so far:
This is, apparently, the explanation of lunar eclipses. Or maybe lunar phases, or both. Likewise, Tilion causes solar exclipses by getting too close to the Sun, and probably caused the first one fairly early on, during on of the "mingling of the lights" in the sky. I think the battle in Ilmen would be a potential time to introduce Eagles, as Tilion's allies, if you don't want them to come as a totally unexplained surprise when Fingon rescues Maedhros. I think I prefer the idea of Thorondor being utterly unexpected by the audience, though.
The Hiding of Valinor also seems not to be mentioned yet? Was it included in "Making of the Sun and Moon?" I think it ought to be in Season 3, so that Season 4 can concentrate entirely on Beleriandic history... it's already packed enough with 455 years.
Finally, did the execs decide whether Arakano and the battle that kills him will be included? I assume if he wasn't already a character in Season 2, then he doesn't exist.
Suggestions for trying to include the battle in Ilmen and the Hiding of Valinor, if they weren't already implied in Haakon's outline. This would need some major changes (all changes from Haakon's outline in bold):
11. Spirit of Fire. Death of Fëanor. Sons renew the Oath and swear vengeance. Emissary from Angband offers to parlay with the Sons of Fëanor. Maedhros accepts, despite his brothers' protests. Valinor: Making of the Sun and Moon. Auroras seen on the Helcaraxë. Death of Elenwë. Beleriand: Melian emerges from Menegroth and creates the Girdle to dispel the spiders
12. Despair and Hope. Sauron returns to Angband. Capture of Maedhros. His brothers refuse terms for his release. Morgoth chains him to the cliff. Fingolfin arrives from the Helcaraxë. Rising of the Moon. Eöl buys Nan Elmoth with Anglachel. Círdan discovers the burnt ships.
13. The Valar Act. Fingolfin marches to Thangorodrim and then to Mithrim. Rising of the Sun. Morgoth's spirits assail Tilion and are defeated. Hiding of Valinor, to fence the Exiles out forever. Círdan's messenger reaches Thingol to tell him of the arrival of the Noldor.
I feel like Cirdan's messengers might be be superfluous, since by 03.13 Thingol's scouts have surely noted that the orcs are mostly gone. Should it be moved back to the same episode where he finds the burnt ships? Finding them can't easily be earlier since Dago-nuin-Giliath has to come first, but he can find the burnt ships in the same episode Feanor dies. The advantage of delivering the message in 03.13 is to steer the audience's attention back to Beleriand in preparation for Season 4.
The Annals of Aman said:
This is, apparently, the explanation of lunar eclipses. Or maybe lunar phases, or both. Likewise, Tilion causes solar exclipses by getting too close to the Sun, and probably caused the first one fairly early on, during on of the "mingling of the lights" in the sky. I think the battle in Ilmen would be a potential time to introduce Eagles, as Tilion's allies, if you don't want them to come as a totally unexplained surprise when Fingon rescues Maedhros. I think I prefer the idea of Thorondor being utterly unexpected by the audience, though.
The Hiding of Valinor also seems not to be mentioned yet? Was it included in "Making of the Sun and Moon?" I think it ought to be in Season 3, so that Season 4 can concentrate entirely on Beleriandic history... it's already packed enough with 455 years.
Finally, did the execs decide whether Arakano and the battle that kills him will be included? I assume if he wasn't already a character in Season 2, then he doesn't exist.
Suggestions for trying to include the battle in Ilmen and the Hiding of Valinor, if they weren't already implied in Haakon's outline. This would need some major changes (all changes from Haakon's outline in bold):
11. Spirit of Fire. Death of Fëanor. Sons renew the Oath and swear vengeance. Emissary from Angband offers to parlay with the Sons of Fëanor. Maedhros accepts, despite his brothers' protests. Valinor: Making of the Sun and Moon. Auroras seen on the Helcaraxë. Death of Elenwë. Beleriand: Melian emerges from Menegroth and creates the Girdle to dispel the spiders
12. Despair and Hope. Sauron returns to Angband. Capture of Maedhros. His brothers refuse terms for his release. Morgoth chains him to the cliff. Fingolfin arrives from the Helcaraxë. Rising of the Moon. Eöl buys Nan Elmoth with Anglachel. Círdan discovers the burnt ships.
13. The Valar Act. Fingolfin marches to Thangorodrim and then to Mithrim. Rising of the Sun. Morgoth's spirits assail Tilion and are defeated. Hiding of Valinor, to fence the Exiles out forever. Círdan's messenger reaches Thingol to tell him of the arrival of the Noldor.
I feel like Cirdan's messengers might be be superfluous, since by 03.13 Thingol's scouts have surely noted that the orcs are mostly gone. Should it be moved back to the same episode where he finds the burnt ships? Finding them can't easily be earlier since Dago-nuin-Giliath has to come first, but he can find the burnt ships in the same episode Feanor dies. The advantage of delivering the message in 03.13 is to steer the audience's attention back to Beleriand in preparation for Season 4.
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This is what I'm trying to say about the military campaign (roughly). In my mind, Boldog is in charge of the Eastern Host and Sauron, although he is commanding the whole army, is leading the Western Host. I'm not sure about the movements around Amon Ereb (of the Eastern Host and the Dwarves and Elves), because it looks like the Eastern Host isn't heading towards anything in particular, unless they are going for Denethor. I'd rather like to see the EH meet Thingol north of Amon Ereb (Thingol marches to meet the EH before they find a way into Doriath perhaps?) and force the elves to retreat to Amon Ereb where Denethor appears eucatastrophically but dies. Denethor's death along with the force of the Ents should give Thingol and the Dwarves opportunity to manage a pinch maneuver which will be successful enough to force the orcs to leave the battlefield. It should be an unclear win.
The Western Host should be moving fast and consist mostly of wolves and werewolves.
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
To me the map doesn't make much sense. It seems like the plan might have been to attack doriath by surrounding it from all sides, but the angband hosts were unsble to enter the forests and were divided again, the western host marching against the falas and the eastern host... No idea, against belegost and nogrod? Unless they were driven away by the sindar who were suddenly in the charge...
What do the books say?
What do the books say?
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Haerangil
Well-Known Member
After reading the summaries at wikipedia and tolkien gateway it seems to me that the angband hosts were not out to attack at all - at first!
They most likely wanted to occupy beleriand and therefore get a foothold, and maybe even fortify, estolad and sirion vale... The elves saw the danger and marched against both enemy camps, but in the east thingols host arrived too late, after denethor had already launched his attack had had been defeated. In the west the falathrim host was defeated and driven to the havens, which were then put under siege.
If small companies from both hosts attacked doriath - like shown on the map- it was to distract thingols forces, to gain time not to conquer.
But as you already mentioned... The girdle of melian is not yet activated and the sindar have vanished... The orcs would not know exactly where to find them - and the forests of doriath are huge!
They most likely wanted to occupy beleriand and therefore get a foothold, and maybe even fortify, estolad and sirion vale... The elves saw the danger and marched against both enemy camps, but in the east thingols host arrived too late, after denethor had already launched his attack had had been defeated. In the west the falathrim host was defeated and driven to the havens, which were then put under siege.
If small companies from both hosts attacked doriath - like shown on the map- it was to distract thingols forces, to gain time not to conquer.
But as you already mentioned... The girdle of melian is not yet activated and the sindar have vanished... The orcs would not know exactly where to find them - and the forests of doriath are huge!
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Yes as I said I just use it as a rough illustration, and what you're saying is exactly what I'm trying to get to. I think the Western Host marching to the Falas definitely makes sense. The Eastern Host ending up at Amon Ereb...takes some explanation that the map does not give.
I don't think the idea is to surround Doriath. First of all, the Sindar have disappeared at this point. Second of all, it doesn't make sense since the WH attacks the Falas. Oh now it seems you've written something...
I don't think the idea is to surround Doriath. First of all, the Sindar have disappeared at this point. Second of all, it doesn't make sense since the WH attacks the Falas. Oh now it seems you've written something...