Session 3.01 and 3.07 - Season Overview
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
Brian Dimmick
Active Member
I don't think Fingolfin's host will be as focused on Morgoth on their arrival in Middle Earth. Of course they hate him because he destroyed the Trees, but the theft of the Silmaril won't resonate with them int he same way as the Feanorians, and they may not feel the same sense of betrayal since fewer of them bought into what Morgoth was selling in Valinor. The Feanorians are going to Middle Earth to pick a fight with Morgoth, while Fingolfin and company, who are going because they don't have a choice post-Mandos, might just want to see some new country and start a realm. (Especially after crossing the Helcaraxe, they probably aren't looking for a fight anytime soon).
The Noldor (both camps) should be surprised to find Middle Earth so dominated by Morgoth. Of course they have some sense that it is his territory, but their memory of it from Cuivienen and the journey is of a beautiful place relatively unmarred by Morgoth's servants (yes, some of them disappeared in Cuivienen but they don't really know why, and they journeyed through a land that has just been cleaned up by the Valar). So while they will be aware that Morgoth is out there somewhere, before they get to Middle Earth they aren't expecting an immediate war. I imagine Fingolfin still harboring a lot of anger against the Feanorians, but with the desire for a fight somewhat cooled by the struggle and exhaustion of the crossing.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I do agree that keeping Fingolfin & Co's focus on Fëanor raises dramatic tension about what is going to happen when the two companies meet, but let's not forget that the first thing Fingolfin does is rush up and beat on the doors of Angband.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
The distance between the Kinslaying and the Curse is being caused by us leaving the A plot for several episodes. Integrating the two stories fixes both the beat dissonance problem, the Kinslaying-too-early problem, and the Curse-too-late problem.
Just my two cents here, but I was looking at the frame, and there's one item that stands out to me. We're putting Denethor's death after Feanor's, but Denethor dies during the first battle of Beleriand, and Feanor the second. I'm a tad confused about that.
Also, well, I don't know much focus you guys gave Denethor until this point, but even so, Feanor is infinitely the more significant character. So, even if we're taking creative license with the order of events, which is all well and good, I would still think Feanor should come after, as the more impactful event.
Also, well, I don't know much focus you guys gave Denethor until this point, but even so, Feanor is infinitely the more significant character. So, even if we're taking creative license with the order of events, which is all well and good, I would still think Feanor should come after, as the more impactful event.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Brian Dimmick
Active Member
Good point--I did forget. Playing up the tension with the Feanorians does help the story; we just need to be convincing in changing everyone's mind and making peace (which is a Season 4 issue I think).
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
Just to get a gauge on it. How much screen time are we thinking the actual event "Kinslaying" will take? 7 minutes? 18 minutes? 25 minutes? More?
The actual event "Doom of Mandos" is like 3 minutes or less - it's the stuff around it that takes time. But there's as much, or more, stuff around the Kinslaying.
Narratively, as bookmarks in the story (and even I think in the amount of printed text - the Kinslaying is described... sparingly in the PubSil), the events are broadly equivalent. But practically, the former will need so much more real estate.
The actual event "Doom of Mandos" is like 3 minutes or less - it's the stuff around it that takes time. But there's as much, or more, stuff around the Kinslaying.
Narratively, as bookmarks in the story (and even I think in the amount of printed text - the Kinslaying is described... sparingly in the PubSil), the events are broadly equivalent. But practically, the former will need so much more real estate.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I agree with all of this. The Kinslaying is made even more tense by what comes before. Now, I don't want to get into mapping out the actual scenes of the Kinslaying yet, but yes, it is a larger event than the Curse.
I think a fundamental question here is whether you blend your storylines, or devote one episode to the A-plot, and another string of episodes to the B-plot, and only start to merge them when the characters are on the same continent.
Obviously, there has been a strong inclination towards keeping the stories separate. One reason is likely because of how Tolkien handles it in the text. But I remember a comparison to Game of Thrones at some point (which I don't watch), and a preference being stated (I think by Dave?) for letting one story play out rather than a '15 minutes with each group' approach to an episode where you bounce around to all of your storylines.
It can be done either way. In a film, the storylines would definitely be integrated. In TV shows, people are concerned about individual episodes making sense on their own. Someone who hasn't watched the show for awhile (but is caught up on the storyline) should be able to sit down and watch an episode and get into it.
We have 5 different geographically separated groups to keep track of, plus the Frame. So, it's going to be busy no matter how you do it.
Noldor (Fëanoreans)
Noldor (Host of Fingolfin)
Sindar/Green Elves/Dwarves
Valar (and Finarfin and the wives left behind in Valinor)
Villains
A single episode where we have all of those groups in different locations and bounce back and forth between them all would likely feel schizophrenic. So, they have to take turns anyway. The only question is when you start integrating the Noldor and Beleriand storylines. Typically, shows abandon their season-long arcs somewhere in the middle. They set up the premise in the early episodes of the season, and they work towards the resolution in the final episodes, but there can be episodes in the middle that are more stand-alone, focused on more minor issues. But typical shows are very much more episodic than ours.
I understand that it would feel weird to abandon the Noldor after the Kinslaying to go hang out with Thingol. That would feel like a completely unrelated shift. But the set-up at the end of Season 2 was the 'Two Crowns' scene, so switching to Beleriand is very much focusing on...what is the enemy of the Noldor up to? We introduce the Beleriand story as Beleriand under siege from the orcs of Angband. It's Morgoth preparing to rule the world, with the audience knowing that the Noldor are on their way.
Obviously, there has been a strong inclination towards keeping the stories separate. One reason is likely because of how Tolkien handles it in the text. But I remember a comparison to Game of Thrones at some point (which I don't watch), and a preference being stated (I think by Dave?) for letting one story play out rather than a '15 minutes with each group' approach to an episode where you bounce around to all of your storylines.
It can be done either way. In a film, the storylines would definitely be integrated. In TV shows, people are concerned about individual episodes making sense on their own. Someone who hasn't watched the show for awhile (but is caught up on the storyline) should be able to sit down and watch an episode and get into it.
We have 5 different geographically separated groups to keep track of, plus the Frame. So, it's going to be busy no matter how you do it.
Noldor (Fëanoreans)
Noldor (Host of Fingolfin)
Sindar/Green Elves/Dwarves
Valar (and Finarfin and the wives left behind in Valinor)
Villains
A single episode where we have all of those groups in different locations and bounce back and forth between them all would likely feel schizophrenic. So, they have to take turns anyway. The only question is when you start integrating the Noldor and Beleriand storylines. Typically, shows abandon their season-long arcs somewhere in the middle. They set up the premise in the early episodes of the season, and they work towards the resolution in the final episodes, but there can be episodes in the middle that are more stand-alone, focused on more minor issues. But typical shows are very much more episodic than ours.
I understand that it would feel weird to abandon the Noldor after the Kinslaying to go hang out with Thingol. That would feel like a completely unrelated shift. But the set-up at the end of Season 2 was the 'Two Crowns' scene, so switching to Beleriand is very much focusing on...what is the enemy of the Noldor up to? We introduce the Beleriand story as Beleriand under siege from the orcs of Angband. It's Morgoth preparing to rule the world, with the audience knowing that the Noldor are on their way.
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Ray Burns
Active Member
Ah, it's good to be back.
The need to bring the audience up to speed on what's been happening in Beleriand is going to be difficult, regardless of how it is handled. I think this is the one time where we have the frame do the heavy lifting and implicitly say "but before we continue with the Noldor, let us first return to Beleriand and discover that has happened since the Three Kindreds passed over the Sea". We're going to leave the Noldor 'hanging', but that's not necessarily a bad thing. We know that the march of the Noldor took some time (years even), so we can show/not show that passage of time by using the Beleriand break.
When I was listening to the podcast, and the discussion of the end of Season 3 came up, this vision popped into my head. The armies of Fingolfin have marched to Angband and are banging on the doors. The hosts of Morgoth are dismayed that such a large host has appeared from seemingly nowhere and are dismayed but are about to mount an attack. We see Maedhros calling out for help, and then we see Fingon suddenly look disturbed and looking around as if hearing Maedhros just on the edge of hearing. Fingon is about to call out for silence, Morgoth is about to release his armies, Maedhros is about to call out one last time, and then the sun rises for the first time. The entire army of Fingolfin is struck dumb as they watch the sun rise and then cheer knowing that the Valar have done something. Morgoth's armies recoil from the light and retreat deep into Angband. Maedhros is also struck dumb as the sun rises... indeed, since he was at a higher place, he sees the sun first. So by the time he recovers and calls for help, it is too late and the armies of Fingolfin are making too much noise for even the keen ears of the Noldor to hear.
It probably won't work because of timing. But I thought I'd share.
The need to bring the audience up to speed on what's been happening in Beleriand is going to be difficult, regardless of how it is handled. I think this is the one time where we have the frame do the heavy lifting and implicitly say "but before we continue with the Noldor, let us first return to Beleriand and discover that has happened since the Three Kindreds passed over the Sea". We're going to leave the Noldor 'hanging', but that's not necessarily a bad thing. We know that the march of the Noldor took some time (years even), so we can show/not show that passage of time by using the Beleriand break.
When I was listening to the podcast, and the discussion of the end of Season 3 came up, this vision popped into my head. The armies of Fingolfin have marched to Angband and are banging on the doors. The hosts of Morgoth are dismayed that such a large host has appeared from seemingly nowhere and are dismayed but are about to mount an attack. We see Maedhros calling out for help, and then we see Fingon suddenly look disturbed and looking around as if hearing Maedhros just on the edge of hearing. Fingon is about to call out for silence, Morgoth is about to release his armies, Maedhros is about to call out one last time, and then the sun rises for the first time. The entire army of Fingolfin is struck dumb as they watch the sun rise and then cheer knowing that the Valar have done something. Morgoth's armies recoil from the light and retreat deep into Angband. Maedhros is also struck dumb as the sun rises... indeed, since he was at a higher place, he sees the sun first. So by the time he recovers and calls for help, it is too late and the armies of Fingolfin are making too much noise for even the keen ears of the Noldor to hear.
It probably won't work because of timing. But I thought I'd share.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
The integration of plotlines within an episode is fairly common in shows with a strong plot arc that tells a story over the course of a season. It can get a bit schizophrenic if it is done poorly, only spending a couple of minutes on each scene. I don't think that is necessarily the direction we need go in.
Also, as the hosts said during the script discussions of Season 2, this is not the kind of show that people will randomly catch an episode on TV. The "starting in the middle" viewer isn't really the audience we're focused on.
I agree that we have more leeway during the middle act(s) of the season. Personally, I would shoot for integration early and late season, to maintain structure, and loosening that midseason. We don't need to give each plot the same level of focus in every episode, either, but we shouldn't leave any of them for more than an episode or two. (The Valar being an exception to this, being as their apparent withdrawal from the story is literally their plotline for this season.)
Also, as the hosts said during the script discussions of Season 2, this is not the kind of show that people will randomly catch an episode on TV. The "starting in the middle" viewer isn't really the audience we're focused on.
I agree that we have more leeway during the middle act(s) of the season. Personally, I would shoot for integration early and late season, to maintain structure, and loosening that midseason. We don't need to give each plot the same level of focus in every episode, either, but we shouldn't leave any of them for more than an episode or two. (The Valar being an exception to this, being as their apparent withdrawal from the story is literally their plotline for this season.)
Agreed that we don't care about viewers starting right in the middle of Season 3 and going 'huh. I don't get it.' So not our problem. But an episode has to stand alone in the sense that there is some thread of story from beginning to end. We can't just do chunks of a bunch of different unrelated stories and call that an episode. There needs to be some ties and transitions between the storylines, and some cohesion and progression. Obviously you don't have to tie *everything* up in an ongoing story, but you have to have some sense of completeness.
I'm not saying that you or anyone else suggested otherwise. Just pointing out that there is a limit to how many of the storylines can be combined in a single episode.
I'm not saying that you or anyone else suggested otherwise. Just pointing out that there is a limit to how many of the storylines can be combined in a single episode.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
My point is that the stories we are telling can be related by theme and structure rather than by geographical location.
Just because the stories are not happening to the same people in the same place does not mean they can't be related.
Just because the stories are not happening to the same people in the same place does not mean they can't be related.
Agreed. I think the Villain storyline will be useful for tying together the Noldor and Beleriand storylines. And it is possible to interweave stories of wildly different tone, so we could have one storyline that's a full out battle switching to another storyline that is a few people standing around talking. It can be done. It's just....the more items you try to juggle, the more likely it is that you drop everything 
.
.The way I see it, it depends on how many plots you're juggling in the season. For example, GoT has had dozens of characters and just as many storylines for practically its whole run, so blending them all together in every episode works for it.
With the Silmarillion, at least in these early parts of the story, I do think you have a sufficient host of characters to possibly make that work (though perhaps not enough separate plots)
My main concern either way is for once we reach B&L and Turin and so on. Those stories by their very nature would compel a contracted focus to their main protagonists. In those cases, I don't know if it would be wise to jump around at all to any unrelated storylines, whether blending or every other episode. Otherwise we risk ending up with a Hobbit trilogy problem. Though I suppose that's a question for later, I'm just spitballing now.
Matt Duke
New Member
I really don't see Mando's Prophecy of the North (and departure of Finarfin) filling up a whole episode, or the Burning of the Ships (and return of Finarfin to Valinor) getting it's own entire episode, for that matter. I think those plot points would fit together just fine into a single episode, with plenty of breathing room even then. Or, if they're to be separated, use the rest of the time in those episodes to further the action in the First Battle of Beleriand.
I agree with Xagzan and Nicholas Palazzo that Denethor's death needs to be moved up ahead of Feanor's. I think the First Battle and the Second Battle are being treated too concurrently, as if they're two fronts of the same offensive movement, when they're quite separate in the book. The First Battle as described in the Silmarillion consisted of a west front and east front. Thingol and Denethor took on the eastern army and utterly defeated them, though with heavy loss to the green elves. The dwarves of Mount Dolmed mopped up the retreating orcs, with only very few orcs escaping. After Tingol got back to Doriath, he heard the bad tidings from the western front, where Cirdan had been driven back and besieged at the havens. Thingol then summoned his people to congregate in Neldoreth and Region, and Melian put up the Girdle at that point.
According to the Grey Annals, it's not until seven years later (by the later reckoning of the sun) that Feanor shows up in Lammoth. The Silmarillion doesn't give the timeline, and for our purposes, it almost certainly shouldn't be happening YEARS later, anyway, but clearly some time has passed before the Second Battle begins. At that point, the forces besieging Cirdan are drawn back to the north to fight Feanor, while fresh armies come from Angband, and all but a "handful of leaves" are left of the orcs after ten days of fighting.
In our timeline, we basically have some limited orc incursions occurring in Doriath, repelled without much trouble, though it sounds like the western front of the First Battle is also going on at this time. Then Feanor shows up and we have the Second Battle followed by his death. THEN we have the eastern front of the First Battle occurring? We don't necessarily have to follow book chronology, I know, but I feel Feanor's death is happening far too soon in the current outline. He's kind of a primary protagonist this season, can't we hang on to him until the second to last episode or so?
Just one more thing. I don't think anyone has mentioned Telchar yet, but he definitely needs to make an appearance when Thingol calls on the dwarves to forge weapons.
I agree with Xagzan and Nicholas Palazzo that Denethor's death needs to be moved up ahead of Feanor's. I think the First Battle and the Second Battle are being treated too concurrently, as if they're two fronts of the same offensive movement, when they're quite separate in the book. The First Battle as described in the Silmarillion consisted of a west front and east front. Thingol and Denethor took on the eastern army and utterly defeated them, though with heavy loss to the green elves. The dwarves of Mount Dolmed mopped up the retreating orcs, with only very few orcs escaping. After Tingol got back to Doriath, he heard the bad tidings from the western front, where Cirdan had been driven back and besieged at the havens. Thingol then summoned his people to congregate in Neldoreth and Region, and Melian put up the Girdle at that point.
According to the Grey Annals, it's not until seven years later (by the later reckoning of the sun) that Feanor shows up in Lammoth. The Silmarillion doesn't give the timeline, and for our purposes, it almost certainly shouldn't be happening YEARS later, anyway, but clearly some time has passed before the Second Battle begins. At that point, the forces besieging Cirdan are drawn back to the north to fight Feanor, while fresh armies come from Angband, and all but a "handful of leaves" are left of the orcs after ten days of fighting.
In our timeline, we basically have some limited orc incursions occurring in Doriath, repelled without much trouble, though it sounds like the western front of the First Battle is also going on at this time. Then Feanor shows up and we have the Second Battle followed by his death. THEN we have the eastern front of the First Battle occurring? We don't necessarily have to follow book chronology, I know, but I feel Feanor's death is happening far too soon in the current outline. He's kind of a primary protagonist this season, can't we hang on to him until the second to last episode or so?
Just one more thing. I don't think anyone has mentioned Telchar yet, but he definitely needs to make an appearance when Thingol calls on the dwarves to forge weapons.
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
We actually talked quite a bit about Dwarves here: https://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?threads/dwarves-s3-and-beyond.629/
I think when I have a minute I'm going to go back over that thread (and a couple of its contemporaries) to refresh myself on the eventual consensus(es).
I think when I have a minute I'm going to go back over that thread (and a couple of its contemporaries) to refresh myself on the eventual consensus(es).
Began sketching on a revision...
Episode 1 The Oath. Setting up the Frame situation.
Episode 2 Reactions to the Oath, choices among those who didn't take the Oath. Fëanor and Nerdanel. Visit to Angband.
Episode 3 Young Luthien. Appearance of Orcs in Beleriand. The Noldor feel the need for ships. The Kinslaying.
Episode 4 Alliance with Dwarves. Menegroth. Uinen's storm.
Episode 5 Green Elves. Ents. Making Beleriand stronger. Curse of Mandos.
Episode 6 Finarfin returns and is forgiven. Planning Moon and Sun?
Episode 7 Leaving Fingolfin behind.
Episode 8 Ship-Burning. Beginning of the Helcaraxë passage.
Episode 9 Attack on Beleriand. Attack on the Havens. Death of Denethor.
Episode 10 Death of Feanor. More on the Helcaraxë.
Episode 11 Deaths on the Helcaraxë
Episode 12 Fingolfin arrives. The Moon and the Sun.
Episode 13 Parley and capture of Maedhros
Episode 1 The Oath. Setting up the Frame situation.
Episode 2 Reactions to the Oath, choices among those who didn't take the Oath. Fëanor and Nerdanel. Visit to Angband.
Episode 3 Young Luthien. Appearance of Orcs in Beleriand. The Noldor feel the need for ships. The Kinslaying.
Episode 4 Alliance with Dwarves. Menegroth. Uinen's storm.
Episode 5 Green Elves. Ents. Making Beleriand stronger. Curse of Mandos.
Episode 6 Finarfin returns and is forgiven. Planning Moon and Sun?
Episode 7 Leaving Fingolfin behind.
Episode 8 Ship-Burning. Beginning of the Helcaraxë passage.
Episode 9 Attack on Beleriand. Attack on the Havens. Death of Denethor.
Episode 10 Death of Feanor. More on the Helcaraxë.
Episode 11 Deaths on the Helcaraxë
Episode 12 Fingolfin arrives. The Moon and the Sun.
Episode 13 Parley and capture of Maedhros
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