Session 3.01 and 3.07 - Season Overview

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Episode 8 Ship-Burning. Beginning of the Helcaraxë passage.
Episode 9 Attack on Beleriand. Attack on the Havens. Death of Denethor.
Perhaps the attack should begin earlier. It should be a big affair and start before the Noldor arrive.
 
I really don't see Mando's Prophecy of the North (and departure of Finarfin) filling up a whole episode, or the Burning of the Ships (and return of Finarfin to Valinor) getting it's own entire episode, for that matter. I think those plot points would fit together just fine into a single episode, with plenty of breathing room even then. Or, if they're to be separated, use the rest of the time in those episodes to further the action in the First Battle of Beleriand.

I agree with Xagzan and Nicholas Palazzo that Denethor's death needs to be moved up ahead of Feanor's. I think the First Battle and the Second Battle are being treated too concurrently, as if they're two fronts of the same offensive movement, when they're quite separate in the book. The First Battle as described in the Silmarillion consisted of a west front and east front. Thingol and Denethor took on the eastern army and utterly defeated them, though with heavy loss to the green elves. The dwarves of Mount Dolmed mopped up the retreating orcs, with only very few orcs escaping. After Tingol got back to Doriath, he heard the bad tidings from the western front, where Cirdan had been driven back and besieged at the havens. Thingol then summoned his people to congregate in Neldoreth and Region, and Melian put up the Girdle at that point.

According to the Grey Annals, it's not until seven years later (by the later reckoning of the sun) that Feanor shows up in Lammoth. The Silmarillion doesn't give the timeline, and for our purposes, it almost certainly shouldn't be happening YEARS later, anyway, but clearly some time has passed before the Second Battle begins. At that point, the forces besieging Cirdan are drawn back to the north to fight Feanor, while fresh armies come from Angband, and all but a "handful of leaves" are left of the orcs after ten days of fighting.

In our timeline, we basically have some limited orc incursions occurring in Doriath, repelled without much trouble, though it sounds like the western front of the First Battle is also going on at this time. Then Feanor shows up and we have the Second Battle followed by his death. THEN we have the eastern front of the First Battle occurring? We don't necessarily have to follow book chronology, I know, but I feel Feanor's death is happening far too soon in the current outline. He's kind of a primary protagonist this season, can't we hang on to him until the second to last episode or so?

Just one more thing. I don't think anyone has mentioned Telchar yet, but he definitely needs to make an appearance when Thingol calls on the dwarves to forge weapons.


So, this is something I was trying to point out in the session. Fëanor does not die in battle. He is mortally wounded. He seems to live on for quite a while. His sons drive back the balrogs and the Noldor make an orderly retreat up into the mountains. I think that we would be better off having him wounded in one episode, and dying in the next.
 
I agree that Fëanor going down in a flurry of balrog whips after his companions have died is one of those moments TV shows like to cut away from for suspense purposes.

And even if we see the cavalry arrive in the form of his sons saving him....starting the next episode with the retreat carrying his badly wounded body works. Because his death scene should be a quiet moment, removed from the battle field. He's going to make them all re-swear the Oath and then his body bursts into flames and he dies. I mean....

One thing I liked about the Beleriand plotline as mapped out is that it has a steady progression and a back-and-forth between the good guys and the villains. I think that if we choose to integrate the Noldor and Beleriand plotlines a bit more or move up Denethor's death, we should still preserve that.

Episode 13 should definitely contain the first glimpse of the Sun and the march of Fingolfin's host to the gate of Angband. So, the first half of the episode should be Maedhros' capture and the downward spiral of that. But the set-up should all be in Episode 12 (the offer to parley, and the debate where they decide what to do).
 
I agree that Fëanor going down in a flurry of balrog whips after his companions have died is one of those moments TV shows like to cut away from for suspense purposes.

And even if we see the cavalry arrive in the form of his sons saving him....starting the next episode with the retreat carrying his badly wounded body works. Because his death scene should be a quiet moment, removed from the battle field. He's going to make them all re-swear the Oath and then his body bursts into flames and he dies. I mean....

One thing I liked about the Beleriand plotline as mapped out is that it has a steady progression and a back-and-forth between the good guys and the villains. I think that if we choose to integrate the Noldor and Beleriand plotlines a bit more or move up Denethor's death, we should still preserve that.

Episode 13 should definitely contain the first glimpse of the Sun and the march of Fingolfin's host to the gate of Angband. So, the first half of the episode should be Maedhros' capture and the downward spiral of that. But the set-up should all be in Episode 12 (the offer to parley, and the debate where they decide what to do).


You know, Marie, I just saw the scene of the the sons of Fëanor pulling their wounded father from the battle in a way that gave me chills. Opening the episode with no introduction before we see short shots of the fight going in and out of focus with the sound slipping in and out with a heartbeat.

I would want to convey the sheer desperation and ferocity it would take all seven (or six) of them to drive away Gothmog! Truly one of the only great moments of true heroism we get from them all together, and I feel like we should convey their experience as best we can. We should see them gathered around him, shielding him with their blades and their bodies, even as he might wish he could have done for his own father.

I'm going to stop before I get even more sappy about this.
 
So.... I’ve been thinking about consolidating our Noldor/Beleriand problem at the beginning of the season, and came up with a brief outline for a tentative episode 1. This would touch on both storylines, with the general theme of pride (and generous heapings of overconfidence) as well as action and reaction to one's enemies.

Now, I must bring up the disclaimer that this is an extremely rough outline, done without much hashing out, and is likely riddled with implausible ideas and more than a just few instances of cliché. I confess I’m not the best at exceptional detail. Feel absolutely free to point out what may or may not work; I’m mainly sharing this just in case there’s at least one salvageable idea that may help in this whole dilemma. The events may even be too much to pack into a single episode, especially one where we want to make the Oath the Key Moment, and a few events do get shuffled around….but well…here it is:


0. Morgoth’s crowning in Angband, no words, foreboding dramatic music (Morgoth’s theme?), Silmarils gleaming, pained but devious/triumphant smile/grimace, cut to intro credits as music heightens (will be edited to be a little less cliché but that’s the main gist)..


-Intro credits-


1. Scene picks back up with the bad guys. Plans discussed, lackeys given the order for fortification of Thangorodrim. Morgoth prepares to wreak havoc on Beleriand with grim anticipation, stares at fires as work begins, this fire reflected in his eyes, which transitions to the fire in the torches at the Oath scene…..

2. Oath scene in full happens. Most important moment of episode. Everybody’s emotions are high. After Feanor’s speech and the Oath (and possibly right after the “Nay! Let us be gone!”), someone (random Noldo? More prominent character?) remarks “It’s time to go home/It’s about time we went home/something-along-the-lines-of-Middle-Earth-here-we-come!” ….which leads into…

3. Scene shifts to lush green forest/beautiful landscape, words at the bottom read “Beleriand”, then the respective year fades in underneath it (although we should probably find a way to avoid resorting to this, if possible). We find Melian, alone, sadly resting her hand on a tree/sitting in a garden, a tear running down her cheek. Thingol/Luthien(?) finds her and asks what’s the matter. She explains that the peace they’ve enjoyed for the past X amount of years will not endure. (Brief mention of their daughter, Luthien?) We see Thingol’s reaction. He decides something must be done.

4. We meet the Dwarves, with whom Thingol has already established a relationship at this point . Negotiations follow about Menegroth, Dwarves agree to teach the Sindar how to make weapons, etc.

5. Switch back to bad guys briefly?

6. An attack happens. It’s more serious than the other skirmishes that were happening before. Or the first attack this close to Doriath….(needs fleshing out)

7. ?


That’s all I have so far. Clearly an ending to tie this all together is missing. But in the meantime:


Connections/Main gist:


Feanor, Morgoth, and Thingol are focused on reacting to their respective enemies.


Thoughts (in no particular order):


· If this does end up being excessive for a single episode, it could end in the garden with Melian and "This peace will not last..." perhaps? Or if that’s too soon, the attack could be shifted up earlier and happen in the midst of Menegroth’s establishment in a kind of left-field play? Though I’m not particularly sold on either... (Edit: there definitely needs to at least be some conflict before the attack, otherwise the tension fizzes.)

· The introduction of the dwarves seems a bit cheated if we go this direction, and we lose some of that history if we somewhat start the Beleriand story “in media res”, however if there’s a way we can revisit that history in a later episode (which may be a challenge, considering everything else), we should aim for it. In keeping with the direction the hosts were leaning in, I figured starting in the middle of unsettled peace would be a suitable place to pick up in Beleriand without completely losing the tension from the Noldor storyline.


· Transitioning straight to the Oath scene may be a bit too sudden? Possibly the flame transitions to Feanor’s own torch as he carries it, heat and passion in his eyes, calling to the Noldor to gather?

· The Valar's non-reaction should probably go in there somewhere....


That's it for now. I'm still working on the logistics of things and may add more thoughts later, but that's pretty much the bare bones. Again, totally feel free to point out whatever works or doesn't work.

· We could also introduce some conflict in the negotiations over Menegroth and weapons. It definitely offers an opportunity for contrasting elvish/dwarvish pride in the works of their own hands, and having varying opinions on the designs, etc...
 
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So, this is something I was trying to point out in the session. Fëanor does not die in battle. He is mortally wounded. He seems to live on for quite a while. His sons drive back the balrogs and the Noldor make an orderly retreat up into the mountains. I think that we would be better off having him wounded in one episode, and dying in the next.

I have to admit to some reservations about this. Though they make the trek back to Mithrim, in the book the whole chain of events only take up a few lines. The emotional impact there is really confined to that small space, quick and concise.

If we start stretching it out or dividing it up over episodes, I think you risk diluting that impact. Heck, this might even be a case that warrants some creative license, where we condense it so that he does die near where he falls, to sort of mirror the rhythm the events have in the book, if not completely the accuracy. Because the longer it drags out, the more it becomes kind of "will he live" question of suspense, when that's really not a factor in the story.

And audiences are smart. Once he's mortally wounded, I think they'll be able to sense the correct outcome. To delay it, only then to confirm it anyway, I don't think viewers would be take too kindly to that.
 
I have to admit to some reservations about this. Though they make the trek back to Mithrim, in the book the whole chain of events only take up a few lines. The emotional impact there is really confined to that small space, quick and concise.

If we start stretching it out or dividing it up over episodes, I think you risk diluting that impact. Heck, this might even be a case that warrants some creative license, where we condense it so that he does die near where he falls, to sort of mirror the rhythm the events have in the book, if not completely the accuracy. Because the longer it drags out, the more it becomes kind of "will he live" question of suspense, when that's really not a factor in the story.

And audiences are smart. Once he's mortally wounded, I think they'll be able to sense the correct outcome. To delay it, only then to confirm it anyway, I don't think viewers would be take too kindly to that.

Oh, I'm definitely talking about having the wounding take place in one episode and the death happen in the next.
 
There will be a good chunk of the (hypothetical) audience who will think there is no *way* we are killing Fëanor. Fëanor's death is probably one of the biggest shocks in the story. You get all this build up of his mission for revenge, and here, in the very first real battle, when he hasn't even *seen* Morgoth yet, he just...dies?

So, YES, it will be a question of 'will he live?' when he's rescued from battle with serious wounds. We've known for a while that elves don't just die and have some magic powers and there's some serious healing available to them....maybe the wounds aren't mortal? He's the closest thing this show has to a main character at this point in the story, so he should seem 'safe' to some of the audience.

Of course, if we play it right, Fëanor's madness should be showing ever since he burned the ships. He's described as 'fey', and whether that means mad or fated to die is kinda irrelevant...it's both in a story like this. He's making rash decisions, not considering the consequences...from that point of view, his death should feel inevitable.

So, if all goes well, Fëanor's death is shocking, but not totally surprising. The audience will wrap their heads around it quickly enough, so we don't need to drag it out....but having him go down in battle as the final scene of one episode and have his death as the opening of the next is very much doable.


Also, to be fair, the entire book of the Silmarillion can be described as 'concise', because almost all of the stories are told in summary/outline rather than with any detail (with a couple exceptions). So, we can't make our choices based on how terse the text is...we have to consider what we want the impact of the scene to be and how to present that.
 
There will be a good chunk of the (hypothetical) audience who will think there is no *way* we are killing Fëanor. Fëanor's death is probably one of the biggest shocks in the story. You get all this build up of his mission for revenge, and here, in the very first real battle, when he hasn't even *seen* Morgoth yet, he just...dies?

My only thing with this is, we're in a post-GoT world now. I know you said you don't watch it, so I don't know what spoilers you've seen over the show's run. But considering
Ned Stark, I don't think people will be that surprised by offing the seemingly main character.
 
I agree. I don't think audience members would automatically approach The Silmarillion with a GoT yardstick. There are stories that speak for themselves without necessarily adhering to the expectations brought about by another story's modus operandi. You just don't *quite* know what to expect until you've seen/read enough of the story to know what sort of patterns and trends to look out for. But I do see where you're coming from, Xagzan.
 
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You're right - Game of Thrones kills seemingly important characters all the time (right after they've used up their usefulness to the plotline, coincidentally). [I have read the books, and seen the first 8 episodes of Season 1.]

And...this is the Silmarillion. We're going to kill a lot of people, too. But in Season 1, we had *one* casualty, who reappeared almost instantly [Eonwë]. In Season 2, we lost some nameless elves to the Hunter, but the only real character deaths on screen were Míriel and Finwë. [And yes, those two stay dead.]

Starting in Season 3, the death toll increases. We're going to kill Olwë and one of the daughters of Finwë in the Kinslaying, most likely. We're going to lose Elenwë on the Ice. And we might even kill the youngest son of Fëanor in the ship burning. But those are all minor characters. In most shows, the major characters are safe because they have contracts to appear in every episode. You don't typically kill off your lead. You kill off your supporting characters to motivate your lead (or because someone is leaving the show). Tasha Yar, meet random tar monster.

The death of Fëanor on this show will be the 'anyone can die' moment. Sure, we're eventually going to kill Fingolfin, all of his children, and all but one of the Sons of Fëanor, too. But that's later. Until this happens...people might think that Fëanor and Fingolfin are 'safe'. Or at the very least, think that Fëanor is going to stick around long enough to carry out his revenge. Ending him abruptly like this should be a shock, if we're doing our storytelling well. People should be expecting his death in some form after the Kinslaying, Doom of Mandos, and Shipburning. I mean, he's made enough decisions that reek of 'this guy is going down' at that point. But this should still seem like, 'wait, what?' because Morgoth isn't even on screen when it happens.

[I don't know if we're including Mandos' "To me Fëanor will come soon," line after he corrects Manwë with "And yet remain evil," but even so, the concept of 'soon' to a Vala might make the audience think he has some more time left.]
 
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Yep, that's our logic - the Kinslaying can't be this nebulous 'elves kill elves' scene - we have to have specific characters fighting each other. So, most likely, we will have Fëanor personally kill Olwë. Irimë's death would be a good reason for Fingolfin to rush into battle without asking too many questions of who started what, so logistically, we'll probably need to do that.

We obviously haven't actually talked about that episode yet, so things may change when we get there, but that was at least some of the preliminary stuff.
 
I just finished listening to the podcast for this session.

I'm not a fan of compressing the timeline in the Beleriand story. This is Silm Film! We must indulge in the totality of everything Tolkien put in the story. That's why we're here.

I suggest separating the Beleriand story arc into two phases: an extended flashback showing what happened between the sundering of the elves and the return of Morgoth, and a phase coterminous with the events in the Noldor storyline.

We have a frame structure. Use it! (Tolkien did).

Here's my proposal for episodes 3-6:

3 – Meanwhile, in Beleriand

FULL EPISODE FLASHBACK: Return to Cirdan and the Teleri who are searching for Thingol and Melian. Cirdan founds his settlement. Teleri find Thingol and Melian and they decide to establish a kingdom in Doriath. Establish characters of Luthien, Daeron, Mablung, Beleg, etc. Discover caves of Menegroth. Sauron does trickery, but as discussed in season 2, his orcs are useless, so there aren't any orc raids yet.

4 – Khazad Ai Menu!

MOAR FLASHBACK: Make this episode centered on the relationship between the elves and the dwarves. The dwarves are discovered. They tell their story. They help Thingol redesign Menegroth. Good times are had by almost all! Sauron tricks someone into betraying Mim. Green elves arrive.

5 –

FLASHBACK PART 3! Green elves tell their story (flashback includes Bombadil cameo--yes a flashback in a flashback!). Thingol give them Ossiriand as a homeland. Cirdan's city is really nice now. Mim attacks and is thrown out. Elves and friendly dwarves make weapons. At the end of the episode, everything goes dark and Morgoth returns to Middle Earth.

6 – Girdle of Melian

Now in real time with Noldor story: Morgoth's redesigned orcs attack. Spiders attack. Zombie bears and walruses attack. Heroic elves and dwarves (Beleg, Mablung, etc.) defend Doriath. Girdle goes up. Elf colonies outside Doriath suffer losses. Denethor isn't dead yet. Intertwine this episode with Noldor journey up the coast and Feanor's host at sea.

7 - Return to Noldor storyline
 
I just finished listening to the podcast for this session.

I'm not a fan of compressing the timeline in the Beleriand story. This is Silm Film! We must indulge in the totality of everything Tolkien put in the story. That's why we're here.

I suggest separating the Beleriand story arc into two phases: an extended flashback showing what happened between the sundering of the elves and the return of Morgoth, and a phase coterminous with the events in the Noldor storyline.

We have a frame structure. Use it! (Tolkien did).

Here's my proposal for episodes 3-6:

3 – Meanwhile, in Beleriand

FULL EPISODE FLASHBACK: Return to Cirdan and the Teleri who are searching for Thingol and Melian. Cirdan founds his settlement. Teleri find Thingol and Melian and they decide to establish a kingdom in Doriath. Establish characters of Luthien, Daeron, Mablung, Beleg, etc. Discover caves of Menegroth. Sauron does trickery, but as discussed in season 2, his orcs are useless, so there aren't any orc raids yet.

4 – Khazad Ai Menu!

MOAR FLASHBACK: Make this episode centered on the relationship between the elves and the dwarves. The dwarves are discovered. They tell their story. They help Thingol redesign Menegroth. Good times are had by almost all! Sauron tricks someone into betraying Mim. Green elves arrive.

5 –

FLASHBACK PART 3! Green elves tell their story (flashback includes Bombadil cameo--yes a flashback in a flashback!). Thingol give them Ossiriand as a homeland. Cirdan's city is really nice now. Mim attacks and is thrown out. Elves and friendly dwarves make weapons. At the end of the episode, everything goes dark and Morgoth returns to Middle Earth.

6 – Girdle of Melian

Now in real time with Noldor story: Morgoth's redesigned orcs attack. Spiders attack. Zombie bears and walruses attack. Heroic elves and dwarves (Beleg, Mablung, etc.) defend Doriath. Girdle goes up. Elf colonies outside Doriath suffer losses. Denethor isn't dead yet. Intertwine this episode with Noldor journey up the coast and Feanor's host at sea.

7 - Return to Noldor storyline


The fix for this problem would have been doing a separate Beleriand season, but this is where we are.

Doing whole episodes in flashback is something I would stay far away from. What we could do is have the question of whether the events were truly contemporaneous come up in the frame and answer it with a, "Do you want to hear this story or not?"


Doing episodes in flashback doesn't actually solve the issue unless you are calling it out, which gets tedious. Hanging a lampshade on what we are doing here gives a nod to the informed audience that we are purposefully being unreliable narrators for the purpose of storytelling, without creating as much confusion as we would calling out a flashback within the flashback.
 
The fix for this problem would have been doing a separate Beleriand season, but this is where we are.

Now that's an idea. Why not do a 3 or 4 episode mini-season 2.5? This sort of thing isn't unheard of in TV.

Doing whole episodes in flashback is something I would stay far away from. What we could do is have the question of whether the events were truly contemporaneous come up in the frame and answer it with a, "Do you want to hear this story or not?"


Doing episodes in flashback doesn't actually solve the issue unless you are calling it out, which gets tedious. Hanging a lampshade on what we are doing here gives a nod to the informed audience that we are purposefully being unreliable narrators for the purpose of storytelling, without creating as much confusion as we would calling out a flashback within the flashback.

I don't mean a flashback from the perspective of the characters in the Noldor storyline, but just a full treatment of the Beleriand storyline from the perspective of the frame, acknowledging that the events occur over many years leading up to the darkening of Valinor. This would work in the same way books III and IV work in The Lord of the Rings.
 
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