Session 3.02 - Season 3 Frame

Discussion in 'Episode Questions' started by MithLuin, Jul 14, 2017.

  1. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    Now that we have hammered out the basic outline of the Season 3 episodes, we are ready to move on to the Frame story.

    Our frame will need to be able to tie in with our Season 3 themes - pride, fall, fate, and ends/means decisions

    One prior suggestion had been to focus on a teenage Aragorn in Rivendell, learning to be a Ranger. Keep in mind that the frame for Season 5 is a 20 year old Aragorn, and he's not going to be 'meeting Arwen' for all 13 episodes of that Season, so there would likely be a lot of overlap in content.

    So, if anyone has any other suggestions for a Season 3 Frame, bring them up now!


    Season 1 and 2 Frames were discussed here: https://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?threads/frame-narrative.23/
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2017
  2. amysrevenge

    amysrevenge Active Member

    The other factor is time-hopping the frames relative to each other. The two so far happened to be sequential (was 50/50 haha). Do we keep moving forward with subsequent frames, or do we jump around?
     
  3. amysrevenge

    amysrevenge Active Member

    Like, maybe this season would be well suited to young Isildur in Numenor.
     
  4. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    No we are intentionally moving sequentially, so all Frames are late Third Age/eventually 4th Age.
     
  5. Brian Dimmick

    Brian Dimmick Member

    One idea would be to focus on some of the White Council members. The actual White Council meeting doesn’t happen until 2953, which is too late chronologically, but there could be some conversations about the changes in the world post Five Armies, and about the need to convene the Council (I’m sure these logistical arrangements take years…) It could parallel the main story in the sense that things are starting to get darker in the Third Age (Five Armies and optimistic forecasts of peace notwithstanding) and there is a lot of uncertainty and disagreement about what to do. But unlike the main story, where none of the Noldor have any idea how bad things could get because of the choices they are making, the older, wiser Third Age characters would.

    It would be an interesting time to introduce Saruman. He would have his own ideas on what is happening in the world and whether the White Council needs to do anything about it. I’m not sure who else to bring in—I don’t think we need everyone to show up. But Galadriel would certainly be interesting, given her interest in matters at hand in the main story. Also not sure geographically where this would happen, but maybe Saruman and/or Galadriel have a reason to come to Rivendell?

    I don’t know that this constitutes the whole frame, as it could end up being a lot of standing around and talking. On the other hand, with so much action in the main story, we may not need a whole lot going on in the frame, and we might cut back on frame screen time generally. There might be some episodes in the season (Kinslaying, for example) where the frame would just be a distraction.

    Just floating an idea…
     
  6. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    No, I think it would be good to make use of the White Council earlier rather than later. They were involved in the (off-screen) destruction of Dol Guldor, so they're obviously active, and we could see some of their dynamic now to set things in place for later.

    Both Elrond and Galadriel played prominent roles in the Frame of Seasons 1 and 2, respectively, so adding Saruman in now might 'fit.' Gandalf has not yet been introduced, well not really, anyway. He was in Rivendell in Season 1, when Thorin's company passed through and with Bilbo's return. Galadriel has let it be known (in LotR) that Gandalf is her favorite and she doesn't really like Saruman, so I doubt Saruman would be a guest in Lothlorien.

    I think Rivendell is a wonderful location for the Frame story, because Rivendell is symbolic of Lore and the perfect connection to history in Third Age Middle Earth. I mean, the library of Minas Tirith might have some relevant documents, but Elrond is living history. And if Galadriel doesn't like Saruman, but he's the leader of the White Council, that implies that Elrond *does* like and trust the guy. He may have reservations, sure, but there should be genuine respect there (which explains the genuine regret Elrond expresses when Gandalf brings news of Saruman's fall).

    Also...this is a season that focuses on the Noldor. Who is the leader of the remnant of Noldor in Middle Earth at this time? Elrond. There are Noldor in Rivendell (and the Wandering Companies like Gildor's group outside of Rivendell). Galadriel herself may *be* a Noldo and an eyewitness to these events, but her people are not. Rivendell, on the other hand.... It fits. Also, Elrond was raised by Maglor (composer of the Noldolante), so is there really any better touchstone for the events surrounding the fall of the Noldor?

    So, if we did include some White Council stuff, what would it be? Saruman can't let slip that he's searching the Gladden Fields, but they have to be concerned about Sauron's return to Mordor at this point.
     
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  7. Brian Dimmick

    Brian Dimmick Member

    Saruman wuldn’t reveal what he is actually doing, but he could make clear through his answers to Elrond that he is hiding something. There is no reason for any of the characters or the audience to think it relates to the Ring, but it should be implied that Saruman is making his own plans and doesn’t fully respect or trust the others. Those who should be united in opposition to Sauron are possibly working at cross purposes out of pride. We should see Saruman’s good qualities—he has a long way to fall yet—but there is an arrogance and distrust about him that should come through.

    I would avoid bringing in Gandalf at this stage. He will immediately draw the focus of an audience familiar with the LotR/Hobbit books or films, as he is such a major character. And we want to establish that Saruman really is the leader of the White Council, and bringing in Gandalf too early could undermine that.
     
  8. Haakon

    Haakon Well-Known Member

    I agree that Rivendell should be the base setting of this season's frame. Apart from using Elrond again, I want to build on what we've established already and combine young Estel with Arwen's brothers. Let's have him run away on his own and let's have the twins find him and teach him how to make it in the wild. We should see his first steps towards becoming a ranger and see more of the Elladan-Elrohir dynamics.
     
  9. amysrevenge

    amysrevenge Active Member

    The problem I have with Saruman is, movies notwithstanding, book-Saruman doesn't strike me as a fellow who would go to someone else's house to host his own Council meeting.
     
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  10. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    True - you do get the impression that if you want to talk with Saruman, you have to go to Isengard. But you don't really get the impression that Galadriel or Elrond leave their realms, either, and yet somehow, the White Council meets. Even with Radagast and Gandalf being the only 'travelling' members. So...I think we could make an exception and show Saruman visiting Rivendell, if we wanted to.

    Alternatively, we could show long-distance communication (osanwe-kenta), so Saruman (in Isengard) has a conversation with Elrond (in Rivendell).
     
  11. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    Is there another character in Rivendell (besides Estel) whom we'd want to focus the Frame of Season 3 on? Are we thinking of having a few episodes based around the White Council, or the whole season? I would want Glorfindel and the Dunedain to play a role in this season - who else?
     
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  12. Brian Dimmick

    Brian Dimmick Member

    I like the idea of using Glorfindel; he is someone whose story we could develop as the frame goes on. He wouldn't be out of place in scenes relating to the White Council business, and it would not seem unusual for him to travel in the same way it might for Elrond/Saruman.. But what would he be doing? We need to have some sort of event that Glorfindel can be involved in, and that may also get the attention of the White Council. An orc attack unusually close to Rivendell? Some ominous news from the Dunedain that Glorfindel goes to investigate?
     
  13. Marielle

    Marielle Well-Known Member

    Perhaps the twins? Estel could still be a major figure in the frame, but sometimes you learn better seeing someone else go through a crisis than by experiencing it yourself, yet I think that's an under-utilized trope in "coming of age" fiction. So Estel could still be growing into what we need in Season 5 (or 6, if Nick gets his way), and we could expand the world/cast further by emphasizing these other characters.
     
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  14. amysrevenge

    amysrevenge Active Member

    We could have Glorfindel as messenger (or higher than messenger) carrying messages between Isengard, Rivendell, Lothlorien and the Grey Havens (and Woodhall/Gildor? Meet Gandalf and/or Radagast on the road?). There might be a good way to aim the right chat between Glorfindel and the right White Council member to properly cast a given episode. Make the whole frame be Glorfindel. He's a rad dude...
     
  15. Marielle

    Marielle Well-Known Member

    Perhaps... what are we planning on emphasizing as the theme of the Season? The thing that the First Age characters are experiencing/learning and the frame characters need to?

    The obvious answer is Feanor's pride, wrath, and downfall, but that might be almost too obvious. An alternative could be to play up Fingolfin's and Maedros' part in the story, as they struggle with anger, duty, etc. Both actively reject Feanor's attitude at the end, but we have a ways to go to get them there.

    A note on the idea of Estel-focus for the frame: in Session 2-01, Corey suggested a slightly full of himself Estel, who just thinks he's the bees' knees. I'm... not sure that works. Not because I think he's too awesome ever to be tempted by pride, but because he's a mortal surrounded by immortals. Arrogance isn't the easiest thing to maintain in an elven city as a young, relatively naive young man, I suspect.

    Elladan, however... he could be arrogant. Estel might hero-worship him, which would flatter him, but even more so he might have an attitude not dissimilar to Boromir's in the film... "by my sword are you kept safe", to rewrite a line from the Council of Elrond (film). He might disdain the idea of combating the darkness by means other than of arms -- not that he thinks that they secretly serve the Eye, but that they're weak and untrustworthy. The story of the futility of Feanor's attack, and the suffering his dismissal of others brings, could be tied into a moment of conscious for Elladan, in the end.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
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  16. Haakon

    Haakon Well-Known Member

    Yes, I would prefer Estel with the twins and Glorfindel rather than the White council (which I'd rather not see at all).
     
  17. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    We have started to introduce Elladan's darkness (or temptation towards being consumed by revenge, anyway) in the Season 2 Frame. Therefore, we should certainly follow up with that in Season 3. It's not going to be resolved yet, but we could certainly have him do something questionably over-the-top during the Shipburning episode.

    If Elladan and Elrohir are the focus of this Frame, teen!Estel and Glorfindel and Elrond would all tie in to the story.

    As for an overly confident and full of himself Aragorn...it could be bravado. There is a certain brand of insecurity that manifests itself in boasting and exaggerated confidence. A coming-of-age mortal may be intimidated by the elves he has been surrounded by his entire life...and still turn around and be an insufferable boasting idiot when he meets actual mortals. Most of the time, if a young man says something along the lines of 'Aren't I awesome?', it's because he's afraid you'll notice that he isn't, really. Typically, it's best to let it go (no need to call him out on it), so the elves could just overlook it or find it amusing. But another young person would be less likely to let it go...so if he meets young Dunedain who grew up in the Wild while he was raised in the safety of Rivendell, they might feel the need to point out how soft and coddled he's been.

    Not that I *want* to portray Aragorn as an insufferable boasting idiot of a teen, but a scene of false bravado where he gets knocked down a peg would not destroy his character. He's (eventually) going to be quite sure of himself, but he doesn't have to be at 15, when he doesn't even know he's the heir of Isildur.
     
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  18. Haakon

    Haakon Well-Known Member

    As I tried to imply above, I'd like to build on the feeling of being kept in a place more or less against his will with a growing knowledge of being different. He should have conflicts with Elrond and Gilraen (not necessarily typical teenage rebellion conflicts but in some form) and should try to explore the world outside of Rivendell. This could prove difficult and he should get help from the twins, who understand his situation at least to some degree and empathise. This running away will be a parallel to the exodus of the Noldor.
     
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  19. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    Yes - Estel wanting to leave Rivendell being a parallel to the Noldor wanting to leave Valinor could work well. I like that idea. I'm not sure what level of consequences I'm prepared for in the frame. It can't be so minor that the audience doesn't care, and yet at the same time, I don't exactly want teen!Aragorn to be traumatized by accidentally causing a village to be slaughtered and burned through his incompetence, either.
     
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  20. amysrevenge

    amysrevenge Active Member

    Ideally, Estel would face some choice similar to the Noldor, but choose correctly. Maybe at the cost of a short term loss of face or something.
     

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