Session 3.02 - Season 3 Frame

MithLuin said:
The Fell Winter will be introduced late in the first half of the Season. This is an ecological hardship, but also an opportunity for the incursion of evil creatures. There is speculation as to what has caused this harsh weather. The Dunedain might suspect a resurgence of the Witch-King in Angmar. What does Elrond think is going on? What do his sons think? Círdan knows the truth (because Ulmo would know what is behind this weather).
Click to expand...
Could we connect it, somehow, to the "rekindling" of Mount Doom? Sort of a volcanic winter?
 
Just thought of a moment I'd really like to see in the frame. While battling wolves on the frozen Brandywine, Estel accidentally discovers that Bilbo has a magic invisibility ring when Bilbo pops out of nowhere to save his life.
 
Marielle said:
Could we connect it, somehow, to the "rekindling" of Mount Doom? Sort of a volcanic winter?
Click to expand...

'Eighteen hundred and froze to death' is what happened in England (and New England) in the aftermath of a volcanic eruption.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/blast-from-the-past-65102374/

The April 1815 eruption of Mount Tambora (in the south Pacific) led to some unusually cold weather conditions in Europe in 1816. No one at the time really understood why it was happening, but it was a 'snow in July' type of situation. Granted, this was one of the largest volcanic eruptions ever - the entire mountain exploded. Everyone died. There was a similar brutal winter in 1601 in Europe that was also caused by a volcanic eruption (in Peru). It would be...interesting...to speculate that some of the desolation around Mount Doom was caused by a particularly large blast. And that would be Sauron's way of saying "I'm home" - waking the dormant volcano.


So, yeah, sure, I'm fine with that being the 'real' reason, and no one really being able to connect the two events.
 
Last edited:
amysrevenge said:
Just thought of a moment I'd really like to see in the frame. While battling wolves on the frozen Brandywine, Estel accidentally discovers that Bilbo has a magic invisibility ring when Bilbo pops out of nowhere to save his life.
Click to expand...
An interesting idea, but I'm afraid it might be showing the hand too early -- if not for our audience, then for our characters. I have a hard time imagining that a young Aragorn wouldn't mention sudden invisibility to Elrond, which would certainly raise his interest.

Anyway, I don't think I want Aragorn to take part in the final battle of the Frame. I want that somehow to be part of his penance, that he submits to a necessary but less glorious role in the drama.
 
I think we have a lot of things we can put into this Frame, so it will be a matter of judiciously choosing the stories that are most important - no filler.

Personally, I see no reason to go to Bree, but I mean, we could.
 
I included Bree because Corey mentioned a Butterbur cameo... but I can take it or leave it.

I do think we have to resist the urge to endlessly Easter egg, a la Star Wars prequels. We'll have plenty of time to bring in everyone's favorite sets and characters, so we really ought to focus on telling a good story each time, so that we have everyone in the right place at the right time -- both physically and mentally.
 
A good Easter egg should work even if the viewer doesn't get it. Meaning, the scene should make sense in its own right, and the characters should not be acting out-of-character or only bringing something up in a THIS WILL BE IMPORTANT LATER way. The scene has to fit where it occurs, even if it will make more sense later or with additional background knowledge. Legolas' "Crebain, from Dunland!" line is acceptable, because even if viewers don't know what crebain are or where Dunland is, it's clear he means, "Look, the birds!" and the viewers have enough clues to figure out that the birds are Saruman's spies.

Overly-pointed prequel-y Easter Eggs are more cringe-worthy. Like Thranduil telling Legolas to go find young Aragorn:

That sort of thing only works well if you're going for ridiculous slapstick humor, or in a situation where breaking the 4th wall is acceptable/expected.
(For an example, the stage production 'A Very Potter Musical' actually defines foreshadowing while doing it.)


Example of a TV show Easter Egg:
This scene makes sense in the context of this show alone, so if you've never seen the show it references, you wouldn't be lost or confused - you would just miss the underlying joke...being that Jeffrey Dean Morgan is the actor who played both John Winchester on Supernatural and Negan on The Walking Dead. That barbed-wire coated bat is Negan's weapon, and Dean Winchester says "Dad would love this thing." The camera draws your attention to it, so you know you're supposed to notice it, but it's not going to be important (or reappear) again on this show, so it's just a little Easter Egg.


We have had Bilbo and Estel meet already, so if Gandalf is assisting in the protect-the-Shire-from-wolves effort, then we could easily have a reason for Bilbo and Estel to meet again. And I do think we should reintroduce Bilbo, as we are going to need a Shire frame at some point, in order to stop doing all of the Aragorn frames indefinitely.

So, Bilbo having a magic ring that allows him to vanish is not something that we can really have Estel figure out right now, because that would be too much to explain and is irrelevant to his storyline. But, Bilbo *does* have a magic ring, and he's in the most dangerous situation he's been in since returning home, so of course he'd have it on him and would be able to use it. Having Bilbo just 'pop up' suddenly in a scene, and then pass it off as 'hobbits are very quiet on their feet' or 'I was a burglar, you know' would be enough to have the reference there for those who know the bigger story, but wouldn't interrupt the story being told here.
 
Last edited:
So....we need a name for Halbarad, Jr.

Any other suggestions for the frame before tomorrow?
 
Attempted a few others:

Halrodin
Baradir/Barathir
Thalordal
Horandir
Tharanbar
Benardhal
Halerand/Halerandin
 
Last edited:
Okay, if you're not in today's session, I'll make sure these are brought up! Thanks for so many choices :)
 
Well, I did add your suggestions to the comment box, Richol, but they were rather stuck on 'Hamilcar' (father of Hannibal of Carthage).
 
My audio towards the end got rather patchy, so I may have missed a couple of points, but here's what I got:

General mood at beginning:

Estel wants increasing freedom while his mom is growing more cautious

* Gilraen shouldn’t be possessive and over protective (need to find a balance so Estel's premise for leaving Rivendell is justified)

* Gilraen unsettled by Sauron’s return to Barad-Dur (Gives her reason to be a bit more uneasy [Sauron looking for Aragorn])

* Halbarad Jr. named Hamilcar


*Prancing Pony
- Butterbur’s grandfather (Titus?) running the inn
- Estel hasn’t earned the name of Strider yet, so Hamilcar calls him Trotter instead?


*Hamilcar’s Death
- Via wolf
- Too few people die, need more destruction?


Estel:
- Parallel with Feanor (natural leader, greatest of his people, natural born hero)
- What choices does Estel make?
- Faces some of the same decisions as Feanor but chooses differently


* Having Estel there at Bree for the action gives him the chance to make decisions anti-parallel to Feanor


Twins:
- Stay with Estel throughout
- The trio go on an odyssey of sorts
- Climaxes in defense of the Shire
- Estel doesn’t get to go home and recover?


* Elladan and Elrohir not the most cautious with Estel (the “cool, crazy uncles”)
- dialogue about going back vs. going further?
- Elladan encourages Estel, Elrohir more cautious



Battle of the Shire

Q: Should it be a battle or siege?

- Period of time when the land surrounding the Shire is incredibly dangerous

- Wolves will be invading in packs

- Estel “stationed” at the Shire

- Interaction between Estel and Bilbo

- Conflict with Hamilcar should be integrated into the struggle with the wolves

- Estel goaded into a moment of rashness that parallels the rashness that led Feanor to his death


* Estel’s realization that he would have died if not for Hamilcar a formative moment for him
* Estel not really going out on the hunting parties (teased incessantly by Hamilcar for this)
* Hamilcar is not aware of Estel’s importance
* Dunedain don’t know about Estel either (Halbarad instrumental in this)

Hamilcar and Estel:
- Hamilcar can’t stand Estel’s special treatment for no apparent reason.
- Hamilcar finds out about Estel's importance just after Estel is goaded and heads out to danger (Halbarad freaking out, maybe Hamilcar overhears conversation or Halbarad tells him directly?)
- Hamilcar dies knowing Estel is Chieftan
- Aragorn remembers Hamilcar's death when Boromir dies later


* Halbarad never uses the name of Chieftain
* The show hould explain why everyone believes Gilraen and Estel are dead (Word can’t get back to the enemy that they’re alive)
* Halbarad called Captain instead of Chieftain?



Causes of Fell Winter

*Volcanic eruption
- Massive eruption of Mt. Doom when Sauron returns?


Q: Just wolves invading?

- wolves and orcs? (wolves get through but orcs held back)

- Trolls from the North?

- Just wolves, but led by werewolf or wargs ?


Q: What role does Bilbo play?

- Not directly involved in hunting parties, not in the thick of the action

- Shadowing the Dunedain, Shirefolk not aware of his role

- Invasion is not a military operation on either end


*Gandalf & Dunedain surprised/impressed by Hobbit’s resistance (feature Horn call of Buckland)
- Hobbits band together in hunting parties


* Hamilcar killed by lead wolf /warg

*Gilraen’s parents cameo?

*Leave out Tharbad



Menegroth

-More aesthetic reasoning vs military

- Elves can do more with light (fully lit home vs. surrounding darkness)



Helceraxe

Q: Does Morgoth attack at all?


Noldor’s resistance to conditions:

Q: How do we convey without downplaying the harsh cold of the Helceraxe?

- dialogue?

- diminished numbers (let the viewers come to the conclusion on their own)


*Elenwe dies via whirlpool

*Ulmo feeling guilty for his part in the Helceraxe; Tilion, Varda and other spirits involved in aiding the Noldor (Auroras)



Angband

Morgoth’s involvement:

- Fine with Gothmog/Sauron conflict, as long as they don’t overstep

- Gothmog more obedient, Sauron more intelligent

- Sauron sent on increasing missions


Q: How do we deal with Ungoliant?

- Feature in the voyage of Earendil (starving, plotting to ensnare the moon, etc)

- Sauron (sent by Morgoth) only finds her offspring


Sauron’s alliance with Shelob:

- Shelob is just a spider, no human form but able to talk (telepathic?)

- Shelob not clever or eloquent. Short speech. More of a free agent

- Sauron’s allegiance with spiders part of plan to invade Doriath so he positions them in Nan Dungortheb (gathers them from various places)


Orc Project

- Sauron’s psychological regimen

- Morgoth takes over, pours anger and aggression into project, alters them

- Boldog, leader of the orcs, big ending (killed by Glamdring)

- Orc spirit dispersed in reproductive ability (need for many)


* Boldog randomly pulled from the ranks, becomes head of the orcs (after Sauron declines)

- Kills Denethor, slaughters Green Elves, first major success as orc leader

- Kills Barahir & co.

- pawn in Saruon-Gothmog rivalry



Homework: Make list of things we need to portray, incorporate into definitive episode outline


Next Time:

Rebellion of Noldor :


a. How do we handle the conflict between Feanor and Nerdanel? Role in the Oath scene?

b. What is Galadriel’s role? (for or against Feanor?) What is the main trajectory for her character?

c. What other elves play a role?
 
Last edited:
Just relistening to this ep since the podcast came out. Trish was talking about the *S4* frame maybe being Thranduil, debating whether it should be Bilbo.

Why not both?

Bilbo does make a trip out East to the Lonely Mountain somewhere in this timeframe. Maybe he pops in to visit the Wood Elves. And all he's heard of the 1st Age is the Noldor perspective.

(There could maybe even be a cameo visit from young Aragorn on his travels.)
 
I missed the first few episodes of Season 3 (accidentally got purged from the registration list, and haven't managed to get back on - plus I was busy with other stuff), and I only recently listened to this episode.

Overall, I'm excited for the frame. The Fell Winter stuff is really cool, as is Young Aragorn's first meeting with the Dunedain and Halbarad, and with Gandalf. I also like the idea of their first introduction being in circumstances where Gandalf is ticked off with Aragorn ("Fool of a Numenorean!")

I also really like the idea of presenting Young Aragorn as a foil for Feanor. One of the things I dislike about The Silmarillion is that the fall of characters like Melkor, Feanor, and Maeglin, all feel so inevitable; like from the first sign of something off about them, I never got the sense that there was any possibility of them becoming anything else - which also made the people around them seem a bit thick for cutting them so much slack. I've been glad to see the SilmFilm Project try to flesh out Melkor and Feanor a bit more, and give their falls more of an arc. I think placing Aragorn as a counterpoint to Feanor is a great way of reinforcing the point that it could have been different, and giving some idea of what that might've looked like.

From the discussion though, I have a couple of concerns. The first involves Hamilcar. The suggestion for his story, as I understood it, is that after Aragorn goes of recklessly, Hamilcar learns that this kid is the heir of Isildur and future king of the Dunedain, and rushes off to save Aragorn (which ends up getting Hamilcar killed). I like the idea of Hamilcar knowing Aragorn is the rightful Chieftain before he dies - though we'll have to think carefully about why he doesn't tell Aragorn, unless we want to change the part about Elrond revealing his ancestry after Aragorn meets Arwen.

However, what concerns me about this scenario is the implication that Hamilcar only goes out to rescue Aragorn when he learns how important Aragorn is. We don't want the audience sitting there asking themselves, 'So, if Aragorn wasn't the Chieftain, would Hamilcar have let him die?' That doesn't paint Hamilcar in a very heroic light, especially not from a Tolkienian perspective, which generally rejects such rank utilitarianism - I'm thinking in particular of Aragorn deciding to rescue Merry and Pippin, rather than strategically going to help out the Ring-bearer, in The Two Towers.

Unfortunately, I can't think how else Hamilcar could learn the truth about Aragorn's lineage. If he's already setting out to rescue Aragorn, it would be kind of hokey to have him stop and overhear his father and the Sons of Elrond discussing who Aragorn really is. Ditto if somebody whispered it to him when he's on his deathbed, or something - this latter scenario also wouldn't give him much time to process the full implications of learning Aragorn is the Chieftain, which would be dramatically weak. It's a puzzle.


My second concern comes at the time when somebody (Dave?) points out that having the Fell Winter and all sorts of nastiness following it in the region contradicts what we're told at the end of The Hobbit that the land experienced many years of peace and prosperity following the death of the dragon and the Battle of Five Armies. While I'll take "The Fell Winter is only a few years afterward" as an excuse, especially if it corresponds with Sauron's return to Mordor, I find the hosts' assertion that "the Shire will be better off, so that's what Bilbo was talking about" too flippant.

For one thing, the Shire didn't seem to be in such bad shape before Bilbo's adventure, so how does that make sense? More importantly, not having peace and prosperity in the lands around the Lonely Mountain and the Misty Mountains would to me seem to violate Tolkien's sensibilities. Elsewhere in his Legendarium, the defeat of a great evil always heralds a period of supreme tranquility and plenty. Think of Gondor after Sauron's fall, the Shire after the Scouring, or even Belariand and Numenor following the War of Wrath. Why, then, should things get worse, rather than better, after the deaths of Smaug, the Great Goblin, and Bolg and the rout of the Misty Mountain goblins?

I can only think of one semi-plausible answer: Sauron's return is so incredibly bad, it actually negates the otherwise universal tendency of settling into peace and abundance after a great evil is defeated. I suppose this scenario could be made to work, but it would have to be done very carefully and thoughtfully. Otherwise, I think it would risk trivializing how big the victories at the Lonely Mountain against Smaug and Bolg really were.


Lastly, I have a suggestion. The topic of stone giants came up at some point, with the decision being that they probably still are out there, somewhere, after The Hobbit, but it sounded rather halfhearted. How about, instead of shrugging our shoulders at the lack of giants by the time we reach Lord of the Rings, we turn their absence into a plot point for a Frame Narrative at some point? Perhaps they were all driven off and destroyed. Most likely, this would've been done by Aragorn - maybe with the help of someone like Glorfindel, giving their backstory together - but perhaps we could get more creative with the story behind the giants' disappearance. How does that sound?

Have we even talked about what the giants are, really? My own sense is that they're not evil creatures created by Morgoth or Sauron, but more nature spirits with their own agendas which might happen to be hostile to the Children of Illuvatar (like Caradhros and Old Man Willow in Fellowship).
 
Lincoln Alpern said:
However, what concerns me about this scenario is the implication that Hamilcar only goes out to rescue Aragorn when he learns how important Aragorn is. We don't want the audience sitting there asking themselves, 'So, if Aragorn wasn't the Chieftain, would Hamilcar have let him die?' That doesn't paint Hamilcar in a very heroic light, especially not from a Tolkienian perspective, which generally rejects such rank utilitarianism - I'm thinking in particular of Aragorn deciding to rescue Merry and Pippin, rather than strategically going to help out the Ring-bearer, in The Two Towers.
Click to expand...

This is a valid concern. My thought in suggesting this was that Hamilcar resents the level of favoritism he thinks his father is bestowing on this random, useless kid. When he finds out _why_ his father has been treating Estel with deference, he finally understands, and forgets his anger, and goes out after him to save the "Hope of Men".

The reason he does not reveal Estel's birthright to him is that he hasn't time. He dies too soon. If we wanted to be super dramatic, he could die in mid-sentence, right in the middle of saying "my [king]," but before the last word comes out.

Either way, he does not go to save Estel because he is the king. He goes because he realizes that his jealousy and hatred were ill-founded.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top