Session 3.04 - S3 Ep 1: The Rebellion of the Noldor
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I don't think we need to see Gothmog practicing a "signature move". A downward strike is hardly a difficult technique to perform.
What is difficult is for the body to remain rigidly upright under the forces involved.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Even a basic calculation puts my estimate of the force needed to cleave the entire helm in the tons category. With that much force, the faster the blow, the more likely for the supporting bones to shatter if the body were somehow kept rigid.
I think you are more likely to see 'person cut in half' in the horror, fantasy and anime types of media. Something going for 'realism' wouldn't typically employ that visual.
Examples:
In Kill Bill, there is a scene with a very clean cut of a blade through a skull....but the person certainly isn't cut in half lengthwise. This is also a movie where the fight scenes aren't exactly what you'd call realistic...
Cutting people in half is quite popular in anime. If you accept people using magic and riding giant flying robots, then perhaps the level of realism in this particular fight scene from Code Geass is acceptable.....
And of course you can combine both these ideas, and have people wielding katanas slice giant robots in half.....as you can see multiple times in these scenes (from 8:17- 10:54 or from 20:06-20:32) from Samurai 7.
But one thing skulls and giant metal robots have in common is that they are RIGID, unlike most of the rest of the human body.
I don't watch horror films, so I'm not familiar with any vertical cut-in-half kill scenes in those. But...I know that they tend to go for gross over realistic, such as this:
And there is, of course, the horse scene from The Cell, but that is meant to take place within the dream of a serial killer in a coma. So, you know...realism optional.
Okay, never mind, someone made a cut/slide montage so I don't have to actually go watch these horror flicks. I have to say that none of them look like the kind of scene you can pull off when the opponent is a strong guy with an axe (except maybe the shovel to the face death in what might be 'My Bloody Valentine'?).
Examples:
In Kill Bill, there is a scene with a very clean cut of a blade through a skull....but the person certainly isn't cut in half lengthwise. This is also a movie where the fight scenes aren't exactly what you'd call realistic...
Cutting people in half is quite popular in anime. If you accept people using magic and riding giant flying robots, then perhaps the level of realism in this particular fight scene from Code Geass is acceptable.....
And of course you can combine both these ideas, and have people wielding katanas slice giant robots in half.....as you can see multiple times in these scenes (from 8:17- 10:54 or from 20:06-20:32) from Samurai 7.
But one thing skulls and giant metal robots have in common is that they are RIGID, unlike most of the rest of the human body.
I don't watch horror films, so I'm not familiar with any vertical cut-in-half kill scenes in those. But...I know that they tend to go for gross over realistic, such as this:
And there is, of course, the horse scene from The Cell, but that is meant to take place within the dream of a serial killer in a coma. So, you know...realism optional.
Okay, never mind, someone made a cut/slide montage so I don't have to actually go watch these horror flicks. I have to say that none of them look like the kind of scene you can pull off when the opponent is a strong guy with an axe (except maybe the shovel to the face death in what might be 'My Bloody Valentine'?).
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
The particular kill I was thinking about was in Kingsman: The Secret Service when Gazelle cuts Lancelot in half.
Another example from Kill Bill. The move I was thinking about occurs at 2:24.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
My vote on this is still no. I can accept the idea that Gothmog is strong enough to perform such an action and that his axe is hard/sharp enough. What I cannot accept is the idea that the resistance of the helm would not push the victim down before he could be cut in twain from the skull.
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
Another point why i would vote for no is that cutting people in half from head to spine with one swift strike is quite bizarre. Would the series need such a thing? Would it fit or add to the cinematic aesthetics we're looking for? Personally i don't think so. You of course DO have such things in mythology, particularly old irish myth for example... But these use exaggeration and the gross thing as stylistic elements, and often in a weird comical way. I'm not sure if it would do a dark tragical setting - which i believe is largely what we'll have wirh a silmarillion film series - any good.
I don't think body horror is necessary for death scenes. War is gorey and horrifying enough if depicted realistically, without cutting people in half.
Ship burials seem like a very Númenórean custom, or maybe a Falmari custom. Not Noldorin.
I like the idea of Fëanor premeditating his speech, planning it out, and telling Nerdanel nothing. By this time, I think they were already growing estranged, as Fëanor pushed the feud while Nerdanel became friends with Indis. Fëanor my well have planned his Oath out in advance. By contrast, his sons just jump in without thinking (nor hesitating!) just because he’s got them fired up and they’re rash, impulsive, angry, and a little crazy. They hear their father swear the Oath, then jump up beside him and thoughtlessly repeat it. It is not premeditated on their part, certainly not rehearsed, but they heard every single word of the Oath before they decided to join it. They do it right there in the square, as the dramatic high point right after Fëanor’s speech and Oathtaking.
I don’t know how to quote, but I like what Brian Dimmick said about the Sons of Fëanor swearing the Oath in Tirion, vs. the much more morally damning choice of doing so after they already saw what Kinslaying really means. The tragedy of the Sons of Fëanor chaining themselves to this Oath is not just from them making one bad decision, but an outgrowth of their character flaws as arrogant, wrathful, and impulsive. Yet at the same time, we see that even the nastiest of them (Curufin, Celegorm) have some redeeming features to them, and some (at least Maedhros and Maglor) are actually well-meaning, most of the time. I don't think they thought out the consequences, resolved to kill elves whenever necessary, and rehearsed the Oath (as their father did). They jumped in, but at least for some of them it was because they are overly emotional, impulsive fools, acting on raw emotion instead of reason. Their divergence comes in what they do with this afterwards, reacting differently as different personalities. Some begin to have second thoughts as emotions cool or events play out differently than they anticipated. Others just keep falling further into corruption, until they are eager to all but murder their own cousin Finrod.
There should also be room for character growth. I feel uncommitted about how long it should take for Maedhros and Maglor to have grown and become more sensible people, seeing the horror of what they committed themselves to, that they then regret their actions or the Oath – whether right after Alqualonde, or centuries later after the Second Kinslaying. I think character development is a better route than having them immediately feel bad about the Oathtaking. Give the audience the expectation of a fall-and-redemption arc, then cut it off at the end.
Before the Oath or the torchit scene in the square, I hope you include the argument between Nerdanel and Fëanor that JRRT wrote in The Shibboleth of Fëanor. Nerdanel is long past trying to persuade Fëanor to do things differently, but she foresees something bad and tries to persuade him to leave behind the younger twin. (She should try to persuade Amrod personally as well... I mean, he’s an adult, he can make his own decisions. Which he does... and then changes his mind later, leading to his death at his own father’s hands.) After hearing the Oath, she knows she has lost all seven of her sons.
I’m all for more prominent women, as long as it isn’t ham-fisted. Women can be warriors, but don’t have to be warriors to be prominent or heroic, and I would like to see women speaking strongly both for and against rebellion. Írimë is pro-Rebellion for different reasons than Galadriel.
What are the attitudes of Finwë’s other grandchildren? In JRRT’s writing Galadriel and Finrod are eager for new realms they can rule for themselves, and restless to discover and visit lands they never saw before. They are curious about Middle-earth. I think Finrod should at least become a significant character during the Rebellion, since he will lead his part of the Noldor after Finarfin turns back (and because he’s one of my favorites). Finrod is eager to see Middle-earth, but he has not abandoned his faith or love for the Valar, the way Fëanor has. He goes against their decree warning the Noldor not to leave, because nearly his whole family is going, yet he doesn’t entirely want to oppose the Valar. He should feel genuinely torn. He agrees to a large extent with his father going back to Valinor, and is wise enough to know it's a better decision... but his own eagerness for Middle-earth, and love for his siblings and the sons of Fingolfin, is stronger. Even realising this will end badly, he doesn't want to be left behind. And because he is a little less wise than his father, he does not foresee just how terrible things will become in Middle-earth.
It would be interesting to work in some curiosity about humans and dwarves, but I don't know if that can be packed into the episode, or if you showed the Noldor learning about their existence before the Darkening of Valinor.
Especially Galadriel should prove herself a good debater, fierce in her own ideas and emotions, but far more merciful and generous a person than Fëanor. She argues for rebellion, but at the same time opposes Fëanor. They should go to avenge Finwë, and because there is no further hope of peace or joy in Valinor, but promise of freedom in Middle-earth. She doesn’t realize how much of her motivations mirror some of Fëanor’s, and yet much of what she says should be very different from his motivations.
Fingon, I think, is a bit impulsive and expects an exciting adventure. He is not a vengeful person, even in his hate for Morgoth. He wants to do important things. Things that matter, not sitting in Valinor crying. Why are the Valar not doing something? Why are we sitting around talking? Go do something!
Introducing Elenwë is good. Character death is much less meaningful if the audience doesn’t get to “know” them a little first.
I think that at Alqualondë, it’s important that the first blood be shed by a Noldo, probably Fëanor himself. And I feel strongly that Galadriel should fight on the Telerin side. Her motivations for continuing are complicated, and it can be left ambiguous how much she wants revenge on the Feanorians. Does she become as furious at Feanor and Sons as Turgon does? Or is her motivation still primarily to see the outside world (and rule a chunk of it)? Part of this is tied in how the mood should be set with Fingolfin's host emerging from the Helkaraxe, and whether to set up a tension about just what they will do with the Feanorians after they recover. If you play the Kinslaying and Helkaraxe right, you should get a lot of your audience feeling pretty angry at the Feanorians too. And it's in the books that "there was peril of war" between the Noldor themselves.
Ship burials seem like a very Númenórean custom, or maybe a Falmari custom. Not Noldorin.
I like the idea of Fëanor premeditating his speech, planning it out, and telling Nerdanel nothing. By this time, I think they were already growing estranged, as Fëanor pushed the feud while Nerdanel became friends with Indis. Fëanor my well have planned his Oath out in advance. By contrast, his sons just jump in without thinking (nor hesitating!) just because he’s got them fired up and they’re rash, impulsive, angry, and a little crazy. They hear their father swear the Oath, then jump up beside him and thoughtlessly repeat it. It is not premeditated on their part, certainly not rehearsed, but they heard every single word of the Oath before they decided to join it. They do it right there in the square, as the dramatic high point right after Fëanor’s speech and Oathtaking.
I don’t know how to quote, but I like what Brian Dimmick said about the Sons of Fëanor swearing the Oath in Tirion, vs. the much more morally damning choice of doing so after they already saw what Kinslaying really means. The tragedy of the Sons of Fëanor chaining themselves to this Oath is not just from them making one bad decision, but an outgrowth of their character flaws as arrogant, wrathful, and impulsive. Yet at the same time, we see that even the nastiest of them (Curufin, Celegorm) have some redeeming features to them, and some (at least Maedhros and Maglor) are actually well-meaning, most of the time. I don't think they thought out the consequences, resolved to kill elves whenever necessary, and rehearsed the Oath (as their father did). They jumped in, but at least for some of them it was because they are overly emotional, impulsive fools, acting on raw emotion instead of reason. Their divergence comes in what they do with this afterwards, reacting differently as different personalities. Some begin to have second thoughts as emotions cool or events play out differently than they anticipated. Others just keep falling further into corruption, until they are eager to all but murder their own cousin Finrod.
There should also be room for character growth. I feel uncommitted about how long it should take for Maedhros and Maglor to have grown and become more sensible people, seeing the horror of what they committed themselves to, that they then regret their actions or the Oath – whether right after Alqualonde, or centuries later after the Second Kinslaying. I think character development is a better route than having them immediately feel bad about the Oathtaking. Give the audience the expectation of a fall-and-redemption arc, then cut it off at the end.
Before the Oath or the torchit scene in the square, I hope you include the argument between Nerdanel and Fëanor that JRRT wrote in The Shibboleth of Fëanor. Nerdanel is long past trying to persuade Fëanor to do things differently, but she foresees something bad and tries to persuade him to leave behind the younger twin. (She should try to persuade Amrod personally as well... I mean, he’s an adult, he can make his own decisions. Which he does... and then changes his mind later, leading to his death at his own father’s hands.) After hearing the Oath, she knows she has lost all seven of her sons.
I’m all for more prominent women, as long as it isn’t ham-fisted. Women can be warriors, but don’t have to be warriors to be prominent or heroic, and I would like to see women speaking strongly both for and against rebellion. Írimë is pro-Rebellion for different reasons than Galadriel.
What are the attitudes of Finwë’s other grandchildren? In JRRT’s writing Galadriel and Finrod are eager for new realms they can rule for themselves, and restless to discover and visit lands they never saw before. They are curious about Middle-earth. I think Finrod should at least become a significant character during the Rebellion, since he will lead his part of the Noldor after Finarfin turns back (and because he’s one of my favorites). Finrod is eager to see Middle-earth, but he has not abandoned his faith or love for the Valar, the way Fëanor has. He goes against their decree warning the Noldor not to leave, because nearly his whole family is going, yet he doesn’t entirely want to oppose the Valar. He should feel genuinely torn. He agrees to a large extent with his father going back to Valinor, and is wise enough to know it's a better decision... but his own eagerness for Middle-earth, and love for his siblings and the sons of Fingolfin, is stronger. Even realising this will end badly, he doesn't want to be left behind. And because he is a little less wise than his father, he does not foresee just how terrible things will become in Middle-earth.
It would be interesting to work in some curiosity about humans and dwarves, but I don't know if that can be packed into the episode, or if you showed the Noldor learning about their existence before the Darkening of Valinor.
Especially Galadriel should prove herself a good debater, fierce in her own ideas and emotions, but far more merciful and generous a person than Fëanor. She argues for rebellion, but at the same time opposes Fëanor. They should go to avenge Finwë, and because there is no further hope of peace or joy in Valinor, but promise of freedom in Middle-earth. She doesn’t realize how much of her motivations mirror some of Fëanor’s, and yet much of what she says should be very different from his motivations.
Fingon, I think, is a bit impulsive and expects an exciting adventure. He is not a vengeful person, even in his hate for Morgoth. He wants to do important things. Things that matter, not sitting in Valinor crying. Why are the Valar not doing something? Why are we sitting around talking? Go do something!
Introducing Elenwë is good. Character death is much less meaningful if the audience doesn’t get to “know” them a little first.
I think that at Alqualondë, it’s important that the first blood be shed by a Noldo, probably Fëanor himself. And I feel strongly that Galadriel should fight on the Telerin side. Her motivations for continuing are complicated, and it can be left ambiguous how much she wants revenge on the Feanorians. Does she become as furious at Feanor and Sons as Turgon does? Or is her motivation still primarily to see the outside world (and rule a chunk of it)? Part of this is tied in how the mood should be set with Fingolfin's host emerging from the Helkaraxe, and whether to set up a tension about just what they will do with the Feanorians after they recover. If you play the Kinslaying and Helkaraxe right, you should get a lot of your audience feeling pretty angry at the Feanorians too. And it's in the books that "there was peril of war" between the Noldor themselves.
Last edited:
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
I#d rather like to see the first kill to come from a Teleri Arrow ... maybe even a mistake or an accident... some guard see something that wasn't there, misunderstanding a situation and suddenly a Noldo-lieutenant is hit and dead and then Feanor ans his sons feel being traited and see red and kill the - as they think- Falmari ho they think under the valar#s spell... then the fighting starts and the newly arriving Noldor don#t know how it all started and join their kinsmen in the fight. In all the Chaos there might be not a few Falmari who had been willing to join the noldor before, and not a few Noldor trying to stay calm and stop the fight, but with no sucess and suddenly it#s everybody against everybody and a tragic bloody mess.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I don't want people coming away from this episode thinking that the Noldor were justified.
The book says that the Teleri cast some of the Noldor into the sea, and the Noldor proceeded to wipe the floor with them. I see no compelling reason to move away from that narrative.
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
just listening to Stream 8...
The thing of how to show that Morgoth is transferring his evil Power into the essence if Arda is an interesting and important Issue. I don#t know... can we show him "strike roots" in some Way? like there#s a big evil tumor growing and brooding in his throne room and slowly but unhindered expanding throughout Arda? The thing, that Melkor will be alone after next Season... will that become an Issue? I mean, would we have to invent some more minor characters for his court?
I see the execs were against Elvish funeral custzoms in ways of memorials or Tombs. But still...
Some Embassy of Mandos coming to fetch Finwe's body (maybe to ship it to Mandos via the Ship of Death, Mornie if we want to recycle that idea?) and... Feanor sends them away! He says :Nobody will come and take my fathers matter" And then he builds him a Pyramid at Tirion or Formenos? Maybe rather Tirion, because that way we can show a procession, and Tirion incloser to Alqalonde, the next step in the Noldo Wandering? However i DO like the solution that Finwe's sons bed his body in Lórien next to Miriels.
The thing of how to show that Morgoth is transferring his evil Power into the essence if Arda is an interesting and important Issue. I don#t know... can we show him "strike roots" in some Way? like there#s a big evil tumor growing and brooding in his throne room and slowly but unhindered expanding throughout Arda? The thing, that Melkor will be alone after next Season... will that become an Issue? I mean, would we have to invent some more minor characters for his court?
I see the execs were against Elvish funeral custzoms in ways of memorials or Tombs. But still...
Some Embassy of Mandos coming to fetch Finwe's body (maybe to ship it to Mandos via the Ship of Death, Mornie if we want to recycle that idea?) and... Feanor sends them away! He says :Nobody will come and take my fathers matter" And then he builds him a Pyramid at Tirion or Formenos? Maybe rather Tirion, because that way we can show a procession, and Tirion incloser to Alqalonde, the next step in the Noldo Wandering? However i DO like the solution that Finwe's sons bed his body in Lórien next to Miriels.
Last edited: