Discussion in 'Episode Questions' started by MithLuin, Aug 11, 2017.
Yeah cut to each of their faces, super tight frame.
So what did Corey mean by giving Nerdanel Galadriel's role?
This episode will have a lot of debate between the Feanorian and Fingolfinian/Finarfinian factions, as well as a lot of decisions made by individuals about whether to stay or go. Do we plan to have most of that happen during/after Feanor's speech, or do we want to start that debate through scenes between the characters beforehand? I would think at least some of the ideas get expressed before the speech, even if not as strongly as Feanor will express them. The text emphasizes the skill Feanor has with words and the power of his voice over hearts, and maybe we show this by having one or two characters (Fingon? Galadriel?) who are skeptical before the speech when they hear the idea secondhand but turn to his side as they hear him speak.
I think we should avoid spending too much time showing the debates in the square. If we show a series of speeches from the various sides, with audience reaction, it quickly starts to feel like a political convention, which I don't think we want. In the book it sounds as if all the debate and decisions are made on the day Feanor makes the speech, through the long debate that follows; at the end of it Feanor's party says "Let's go" and they leave. But I think we will want to dwell some on the preparations for departure, the goodbyes to Finarfin and his contingent, etc., and this gives us an opportunity to bring up the points smade in the debate through these conversations (some characters may still be on the fence after Feanor's speech and need convincing one way or the other). It also helps us show that while fingolfin's people are ready to depart, they are not as fiery and committed as the Feanorians.
I guess I just don't want this episode to be dominated by one 35 minute scene in the square, so want to find ways to flesh out other scenes.
I thought Finarfin turned back at the Kinslaying, no earlier.
Finarfin turns back after the Doom of Mandos.
At this point in the story, he is supposed to be counseling patience....that everyone wait and see before doing anything rash. Fëanor puts a stop to that, and 90% of the Noldor leave.
Yes, I got confused. He does depart with the host for the moment, although a tenth of the Noldor choose to stay behind. Not sure if any of our significant characters are in that group (Nerdanel?)
You are correct. As to the Nerdanel as Galadriel issue, I think it is a reference to Galadriel's open opposition to Fëanor in later versions of the tale.
The episode could begin with the spreading of the news that there's going to be a meeting in the square. We learn that Fëanor is going to say something and the general purpose of the meeting is revealed. We can show Galadriel and Finarfin have different opinions about the meeting. We can show Fingolfin and Irimë on their way to the square. We show Nerdanel finding Fëanor and trying to calm him down, but he's on fire. Maybe he's on his way to their sons? Or perhaps it's better if Nerdanel finds him together with the sons and it is implied that Fëanor and his sons have been somewhere without Nerdanel (rehearsing the Oath) and she asks where they've been, but they don't give her a clear answer. We get the feeling that, even if some or most of the sons have nothing against their mother but in fact love her very much, they have sided with their father. Then we can have a short buildup of the tension seeing the Noldor waiting in the square, catching the arcs of Finarfin/Galadriel and Fingolfin/Irimë. It's important to really tie Irimë and Fingolfin together before the Kinslaying.
Then there's the speech and the Oath. The reactions and discussions afterwards are really important, we have to see some of our most central players reveal their positions and attitudes towards the Oath and the exile.
We need to see Fingolfin and Fëanor. Irimë could be with them. And Finarfin expressing caution. But Nerdanel could just say her piece, not actually hoping to change Fëanor's mind, and then leaving. Like a mortal version of Mandos.
My fear of starting out with an announcement of this meeting is not having enough material to lead up to the event itself. We need about 30 minutes of main story material leading up to that moment, which means we need to take our time.
Yes, but since it's the big thing of the episode, it's good to present it early on. Apart from the scenes building up to the meeting, we can show one of the elves go to one of the Ainur and reveal what's going on. Maybe Elenwë? We should introduce her early in the season. Then we show Manwë and Varda pondering the situation. I guess the Valar might be concerned but they could be focusing on things on a bigger scale and not be that worried about this meeting? But again, it's good to introduce the Valar this episode. We should also see the dead Trees in this episode, and Elves and Ainur mourning. Perhaps Ingwë?
Then we should insert a scene or two in Angband before we get to the final scenes leading up to the meeting. So I actually think we're ok.
We can start (or end) with Morgoth in Angband.
We can show the Valar in the (ruined) Ring of Doom, sitting in silence....
While the episode is certainly Noldor-centric, it doesn't have to be 100% Noldor.
Also, keep in mind that *all* of Finwë's children were in Formenos at the end of the Season Finale. We could start with bringing Finwë's body back to Tirion for funerary purposes.
Yes, starting with a funeral procession into Tirion feels much more like the note we want to hit. Maybe even an attempt by Indis to console not only her own children, but Fëanor. One last shot at preventing Miriel' s forboding from coming to pass.
I like the idea of the funeral procession as well. As far as the literal beginning of the episode I'm kind of leaning towards Angband, if only for the fact that it's the glue that holds the two major storylines we've got going together this season. It seems fitting we should start there and then focus on setting up the main Noldor action in this episode. But I'm up for either/or.
What do the elves even do with dead bodies? None of them have had a funeral before. The only elf who died in Valinor before was Míriel, and her body was left incorrupt in Lorien.
Finwë's body is bashed/trampled/broken. He's not exactly a pretty corpse, though no doubt he will be TV-dead rather than an actual mangled body. So, I could see covering him with a sheet or something before carrying him on a litter back to Tirion. But then, what, laid out in state for everyone to pay their respects? Buried in a mound? A funeral pyre? A cairn? Glass coffin? Last palantir from Formenos buried with him? Final resting place in Tirion or on Taniquetal or....?
Do any of the Valar attend the 'funeral'? Aulë in particular would mourn Finwë's death. Does Mandos show up? Because...that's a bit awkward.
Oh I agree with Richol that I think I'd want the very first scene be in Angband. Not only because that story will tie all the storylines together but because it would be great to go from Melkor in Angband to the funeral of Finwë.
But I guess we could end with Angband as well...go from the Oath to Morgoth has potential... Do we have to choose one?
I say funeral pyre. What is TV dead?
I feel like the Valar being present at the proceedings would elicit a confrontation. That may be something we want and it may not, I just want to make sure we consider that. Personally, my reading is that the Valar try not to egg Fëanor on more than absolutely necessary.
As to the type of burial, I feel that an actual burial seems in order. I don't know what Laws and Customs has to say, but cremation does seem fairly unelvish. "Heathen," as Denethor might say.
TV dead meaning a markless and nearly lifelike corpse. In real life, the dead rarely resemble the living, despite arduous and rather expensive attempts to restore the person's appearance.
Well, as far as cremation goes, possible foreshadowing for Feanor? His body burned away when he died. The other reason has to do with watching Return of the Jedi, with the pan up from Luke burning Vader's armor to the stars. Perhaps to symbolize the soul going to Valinor? Contrast with Denethor plunging down.
Another idea could be funeral boats. Remember Boromir's funeral boat in the The Fellowship of the Ring? Where did Aragorn and Legolas get that idea from?...
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