Session 3.04 - S3 Ep 1: The Rebellion of the Noldor

Is it a body centred funeral? The spirit of Finwë isn't far away...and will return...

I think it would be weird if they burned his body. What would be the purpose?
 
I think they should place the body on some stone bed, a place where it waits for the spirit to return. Maybe they cover it with a beautiful shroud?
 
The same goes for the boat - what's the purpose? Why send his body away into the ocean? And set him on fire?
 
Maybe they carry him off to the gates of the Halls of Mandos, where Namo and Vairë come and take him.
 
I suggest that his sons carry him to Mandos. That would be powerful and moving.

Regarding whether Valar should be present or not: I think they should not - but if Mandos and Vairë appear at the end of a funeral procession, that wouldn't do any harm, and they would not say a word.
 
Haakon said:
Or perhaps it's better if Nerdanel finds him together with the sons and it is implied that Fëanor and his sons have been somewhere without Nerdanel (rehearsing the Oath) and she asks where they've been, but they don't give her a clear answer. We get the feeling that, even if some or most of the sons have nothing against their mother but in fact love her very much, they have sided with their father. Then we can have a short buildup of the tension seeing the Noldor waiting in the square, catching the arcs of Finarfin/Galadriel and Fingolfin/Irimë.
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I don't think I want to do this, because I want us to leave open the tension and drama between the sons for most of the season. I know it's a significant change, but I don' t think I want the sons swearing under the torchlight in Tirion -- one, I want the Oath to be more impulsive than that, and two, I think we'd be losing a lot of potential pathos (especially for Maedros) if we have the sons in lockstep from day one. I also think that we want to do a slow-burn for the dread and doom of the Curse.

If we give the Oath just to Feanor at first, then we can unfold the full meaning of it slowly throughout the season, and the moment when he begs/orders his sons to renew it before his death could make our audience sick to their stomachs, because we know what these "young men" are about to commit themselves to. The Oath will have punch with Feanor because we've spent so much time with him: I think we need to spend more time with the sons before we give it to them, too, unless the full import of their swearing will get lost in the shuffle.

Ange1e4e5 said:
So what did Corey mean by giving Nerdanel Galadriel's role?
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In the third version of Galadriel, recounted in Unfinished Tales, Tolkien envisioned Galadriel as an antagonist to Feanor, arguing against him at Tirion and going to Middle Earth mostly to keep an eye on him and stop him from doing too much damage. While I think it's important that Nerdanel stays in Valinor, Corey has suggested earlier that she be his interlocutor in Tirion. I know some have suggested that she not speak up in public, but only in private, which could work (her storming up to him afterwards hissing "have you gone mad?" for example), but unless we want the scene in Tirion just to be Feanor's speech, with no other voices raised, I think her voice would have to be included in the debate. She's not going to sit quietly and let her husband and his brothers settle things alone, I don't think. And this isn't her challenging him on how he conducts his family affairs, which is a private matter, this is a matter of great import for their whole people; I don't think that, if there's a debate, she'd feel as if she could afford to wait to speak privately with her husband.

I do think, however, that she shouldn't say "I would never go" or something like that. I want her husband and sons to know she's opposed to the idea, but be able to believe that she'll go along with the majority opinion once she realizes she lost the argument -- and therefore be shocked and hurt when she "chooses" the Valar/Valinor over them.
 
Marielle said:
If we give the Oath just to Feanor at first, then we can unfold the full meaning of it slowly throughout the season, and the moment when he begs/orders his sons to renew it before his death could make our audience sick to their stomachs, because we know what these "young men" are about to commit themselves to. The Oath will have punch with Feanor because we've spent so much time with him: I think we need to spend more time with the sons before we give it to them, too, unless the full import of their swearing will get lost in the shuffle.
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I would argue that showing the harsh, grim words of the Oath coming not only from Fëanor but also from these young men will be almost shocking - in a very good, effective way. We should see the commitment in their eyes but also the fact that they don't yet really realise what they are saying. It will be heartbreaking.
 
True... I suppose I'm just afraid a whole family "reading off" a prepared text would look hoaky. But the effect I want could also be conveyed by the sons' canonical renewal of the Oath before Feanor's death: that time, they should have enough empirical evidence to know that's a really, really bad idea....

But I'm still leaning towards wanting Feanor alone to say the Oath in episode 1. We need to show enough perspectives: Feanor's, Fingolfin's, Irime's, Finarfin's, Galadriel's and Nerdanel's. I'm not sure we have time to show the sons', even if we give them all the same one. I don't want the audience to overlook the significance of the sons' swearing, and I'm afraid it would get lost if we do it now.

I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, but I think I'd rather it be an open question how far the sons (read, Maedros and Maglor) will end up going. Maedros, especially, I see becoming a protagonist this season, as he argues against the Shipburning and tries to govern his brothers. Making him "mindlessly" (as it could easily look if we don't spend some time on his thought process) swear the Oath could compromise him: saving it, so that we have time to show him as someone with good impulses, but one for whom paternal love/familial duty overrides all, could solidify him in the audience's mind as a likeable, tragic character.
 
Just because they say the Oath in unison and don't really understand the full consequences it doesn't mean they do it mindlessly. They are excited, not just because they are going to embark on this heroic mission but because they are making a transgression. Even the younger sons must know that this Oath and what they are about to do is something that breaks some sort of rule on some level. This excites them. They are making their own rules. But later, as the excitement fades, the chains of the Oath become apparent, and they have different ways of dealing with that.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
TV dead meaning a markless and nearly lifelike corpse. In real life, the dead rarely resemble the living, despite arduous and rather expensive attempts to restore the person's appearance.
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And what if the dead body of finwe is a disfigures trampled mass, mashed skull and everything, in an open black box so everybody can see the horror?

As for funeral i suggest they deposit the body in a small pyramid. As the noldor are angry with the valar they might wish to veto to bring finwes body to mandos and store the body somewhere on their lands in noldomar, maybe at tirion or formenos?
 
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Marielle said:
True... I suppose I'm just afraid a whole family "reading off" a prepared text would look hoaky. But the effect I want could also be conveyed by the sons' canonical renewal of the Oath before Feanor's death: that time, they should have enough empirical evidence to know that's a really, really bad idea....

But I'm still leaning towards wanting Feanor alone to say the Oath in episode 1. We need to show enough perspectives: Feanor's, Fingolfin's, Irime's, Finarfin's, Galadriel's and Nerdanel's. I'm not sure we have time to show the sons', even if we give them all the same one. I don't want the audience to overlook the significance of the sons' swearing, and I'm afraid it would get lost if we do it now.

I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, but I think I'd rather it be an open question how far the sons (read, Maedros and Maglor) will end up going. Maedros, especially, I see becoming a protagonist this season, as he argues against the Shipburning and tries to govern his brothers. Making him "mindlessly" (as it could easily look if we don't spend some time on his thought process) swear the Oath could compromise him: saving it, so that we have time to show him as someone with good impulses, but one for whom paternal love/familial duty overrides all, could solidify him in the audience's mind as a likeable, tragic character.
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So, my case for maintaining the story set forth in the text:

Yes, having the sons repeat the Oath for the first time at Fëanor's death is more tragic, and gives us more pathos. But it also almost makes it looks like they were under duress, fulfilling the dying wish of their father. No sane person would consider that the result of their own failings. Showing the sons saying the Oath along with Fëanor puts the responsibility for this on their own shoulders, along with Dad's.

As to it seeming a bit weird, it should. It should be downright unsettling. Having each of the sons stride out of the crowd saying the words to join their father should garner some looks that are at best, confused, and some even disturbed. The confused amongst the Noldor, however, will get swept up in the drama, which was Fëanor's intent all along.

This is the point at which Nerdanel knows she has truly lost her sons.

Showing reaction shots from our other named characters should be easy enough, as the Oath itself can take about two minutes to recite.
 
I'm not sure where it's best to put the Angband scenes. I can see the Angband stuff having a good place in the beginning, but maybe it's more effective if we do it another way. I feel that the funeral scene is going to be powerful, and I think it would be best emotionally if we move from that to Angband - from grief to the one causing the grief, instead of the other way around. We can use the cuts back and forth to imply passing of time, so let's say we end the funeral scene with Fëanor telling people that he calls people to a meeting in the square, where he wants to speak about Melkor (I just write this as a suggestion, nothing I'm married to or anything, we can do it in a number of ways), and then we cut to Melkor in Angband and show him really beginning his rule and we get to see the Silmarils. We can also put in a Sindar scene here if we need to. Then we cut back to the scenes leading up to and including the Oath.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
TV dead meaning a markless and nearly lifelike corpse. In real life, the dead rarely resemble the living, despite arduous and rather expensive attempts to restore the person's appearance.
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Exactly. TV dead is the actor laying on the ground trying not to breath, with a little makeup to show blood and/or wounds. In other words, they look like they could open their eyes and wake up at any moment, because they aren't actually a corpse. Even when it *is* a wax model rather than a living person, they tend to make it pretty and life-like (as when Boromir went over the Falls).

I am not saying that dead bodies are never portrayed with any realism on film or TV. But I am saying it is somewhat rare, so the assumption is that no one is going to do that, unless we specifically intend otherwise.

It doesn't really matter, except that if we're portraying Finwë's body days later, he really should be covered.
 
MithLuin said:
Exactly. TV dead is the actor laying on the ground trying not to breath, with a little makeup to show blood and/or wounds. In other words, they look like they could open their eyes and wake up at any moment, because they aren't actually a corpse. Even when it *is* a wax model rather than a living person, they tend to make it pretty and life-like (as when Boromir went over the Falls).

I am not saying that dead bodies are never portrayed with any realism on film or TV. But I am saying it is somewhat rare, so the assumption is that no one is going to do that, unless we specifically intend otherwise.

It doesn't really matter, except that if we're portraying Finwë's body days later, he really should be covered.
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Interestingly, if the wax model doesn't look exactly like the living actor, the audience doesn't buy it as a real corpse. "Reality is Unrealistic"
 
Do elven bodies even rot? I always imagined Finduilas' corpse, for example, being in pretty good shape when Turin finds her: maybe because his life is crappy enough without adding body horror to it.
 
Marielle said:
Do elven bodies even rot? I always imagined Finduilas' corpse, for example, being in pretty good shape when Turin finds her: maybe because his life is crappy enough without adding body horror to it.
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I don't think we find her body, all we see is the cairn, the Haudh-en-Elleth.

So what do you guys think of funeral boats made by the Sindar?
 
Yes. I was thinking about the funeral boat for Boromir and thought we could see the origin of this practice.
 
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