Session 3.08 - S3 Ep3: Meanwhile in Beleriand

MithLuin

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If Episode 2 ends with Fëanor's stolen ship gaining the open sea beyond the harbor, then we really won't have time for any 'aftermath' in that episode. If we take it a bit further, we can have the arrival of Finarfin's crowd and the horrified looks of the non-combatants to find the harbor full of dead and dying elves, and the Noldor with bloody swords.

We will need to have Earwen react to Olwë's dead body, so somehow we have to get them together. One possibility is that the 'farewell' between Finarfin and Earwen earlier was really a 'I'll go as far as Alqualondë with you,' so she is with the host when they come to the harbor, and is therefore on hand when Olwë's body is brought ashore from the boat he had been on when Fëanor killed him. If Fëanor tosses his body in the harbor, *obviously* the Teleri would recover it.

Another possibility is to have Earwen arrive in Alqualondë ahead of the host of the Noldor, so she is the one who tells Olwë what has been going on in Tirion before Fëanor arrives.

But it sounds like we are saving Uinen's storm for Episode 3.
 

Haakon

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Ok so all of that stuff goes to e2? And I'll change the 'Aftermath' line to "Uinen's storm".
 

MithLuin

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Where Episode 2 ends is to be determined.

Corey liked the visual image of Fingolfin (on the Arch) and Fëanor (on a ship going below the Arch) making eye contact with one another as the final image of the Kinslaying.

But if that is the end of the episode, then the arrival of Finarfin's host would have to wait until Episode 3. That hasn't really been discussed yet.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Where Episode 2 ends is to be determined.

Corey liked the visual image of Fingolfin (on the Arch) and Fëanor (on a ship going below the Arch) making eye contact with one another as the final image of the Kinslaying.

But if that is the end of the episode, then the arrival of Finarfin's host would have to wait until Episode 3. That hasn't really been discussed yet.
I tend to agree with them that Fëanor's leaving the harbor is a stronger ending to the climax. Adding the storm shifts the focus away from the tragedy. The storm can, of course, wait for the Beleriand-only episodes to end, but if we interweave the storylines at this point, we compound the problem that caused the hosts to avoid doing that from the beginning of the season in the first place.

We basically caused this problem by abandoning Beleriand halfway through Season 2.
 

Haakon

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A SUGGESTION REGARDING THE TIMELINE
There has been some dissatisfaction regarding the timeline of this season, and this is because of the decision to put the First Battle after the Second Battle. I’ve tried to understand the reasons for this decision, and suggest an alternative to that timeline, which is an attempt to meet the essential needs that those reasons express, but with the First Battle first and the Second second (well, sort of). I realise that my suggestion won't be accepted in its entirety but I thought it fair to present an outline as complete as possible.

(Sorry about spamming the forum threads with versions of this timeline - with various degrees of similarity - but it is in the spirit of Tolkien, after all)
(Edited after comments - the ideas aren't all mine)

So, here it is:



Season 3 timeline, (focusing primarily on the Beleriand storyline and some of the Noldor storyline – not a lot of Valar and no frame, which makes some episodes seem short and lacking of story):

Episode 3: Of the Sindar

Beginning with the Noldor and the storm of Uinen.

Shift to Beleriand:

We visit Círdan (who has just lost his kin and friend Olwë, with whom he shared a sense of purpose – he knows nothing of this death of course), see the life of the Falathrim, their settlements, ships etc. This is necessary since we later on will see them besieged.

Establishing Thingol and Melian, and their court. Luthien has to shine from the very beginning, we have to fall in love with her at least a bit even if she's not going to do anything for ages and we will hardly see her (but we will show her reacting to Menegroth etc). Daeron has to be a star. In these times of peace, he will (well, apart from Thingol and Melian, and Luthien), be the person at court that people talk about and admire. This will put him in a position which makes him develop fantasies about himself and Luthien. We should learn that he has invented writing.

Angband: (Not sure how much of this happened in E1 or E2, I missed the session) SSNOP details, orcs being prepped for release. Sauron loses his job, is sent to find out what happened to Ungoliant, and also to map the Sindar movements, where they live etc. Morgoth does some management by fear, letting his servants know that no one has a safe position. Boldog is put in charge of the orc project. His position is under Gothmog who is put in charge of the army as operative general. I don't think a lot of time has to be spent on Angband. Boldog's relation to Mairon is probably that he thinks Mairon is a loser and he himself a winner, but they won't have much contact at this stage. Mairon is filled with the desire to prove himself in Melkor’s eyes and hate against Gothmog. (By handling Mairon roughly, Morgoth actually provokes Mairon to step further towards a complete fall.)

We see Eöl who has some kind of contact with Mîm. This is to establish that Eöl has contact with dwarves of all kinds, and to show that Mîm lives in what is to become Menegroth, and to show two loners. They don't have to be friends - in fact, I'm not sure that's within their capacity. Also, since the Dwarves of the Blue Mts. and Eöl will be friends, it is perhaps best if Eöl and Mîm don't like each other - the petty dwarf and the Ered Luin dwarves will not be friends and a friendship between Eöl and the Ered Luin dwarves would be tainted by him befriending Mîm. (New idea: Eöl crashes a Sindar court party at Nan Elmoth. Says he is living there and wants it for his own. Thingol says no.)

Beleg and Mablung encounter orcs for the first time. The two elves happen to come across some sorry looking beasts wandering - orcs. These orcs run away. Suddenly the starlit dark is disrupted by three volcanic explosions to the north. The Thangoridrim peaks are created. The time of peace is over.



E4: Khazad Ai Menu!

The Sindar encounter the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains. An alliance is negotiated; Thingol and Melian understands that the great enemy has returned and that they will need allies. They are interested in the weapons and armor the dwarves have and curious about the way they live. This leads to the suggestion that the elves should move underground. Who finds Menegroth and suggests that the Sindar should move there? (Sindar, dwarves, Eöl?). Thingol is fascinated about the gonnhirrim.

Mîm is tossed out and he is disgruntled by this. (Do we see something of Eöl?). All Sindar are puzzled by the dwarves, and Luthien asks her father if it's wise to follow the ways of a culture you don't understand. In the end her concerns are interpreted as a wish to keep dancing under the stars.

Mairon: he can’t find the Sindar anymore. He suspects Melian is behind this. He intensifies the search for the Sindar, but shifts focus to his second task, finding Ungoliant.

Lindi led by Denethor arrive in Ossiriand, looking for a mighty king. They bring Ents, including Treebeard. (We can't really show them before this, they would be another group of elves wandering, it would be confusing and also a bit boring)

E5: Menegroth

More of Eöl and the dwarves of the Blue Mts. He learns secrets about smithing. Belegost or Nogrod? This could in some way be combined with the green elves meeting the dwarves. Denethor's people have met dwarves before (Durin?) and know how to deal with them, even if the initial position of the dwarves is negative/cautious.

Doriath: Interior decoration of Menegroth. Gamil Zirak at work. Gamil Zirak is fascinated by Daeron's writing. Thingol learns that elves have entered Beleriand crossing the Blue Mts. He could be excited ("Is Lenwë among them?" - the dwarves won't know details).

Angband:
The orcs multiply. Morgoth pours his hate into them. Boldog is making soldiers of them, and is getting ready to release a huge army. Gothmog is onto him and threatens him – he must not fail.

The Lindi meet the Sindar. (What has happened to Lenwë? What will the relationship between Thingol and Denethor be? Is Thingol disappointed or does he dislike the newcomers? What about Threebeard?)

Of the Noldor: There is tension between the fingolfinians and the feanorians - but Maedhros and Fingon are friends. Finarfin and his children debate - go on or return? We understand that not much time has passed since the Kinslaying. (The timelines are getting closer)


E6: Strong and fell

Sauron learns about the Green elves. Thuringwethil finds out that word is spread among the elves of Beleriand that there is a hidden place in Doriath where elves can find refuge.
Sauron searches for the hidden place and north of Doriath he
finds Shelob. He learns that Ungoliant has left Beleriand. He returns to Morgoth with this news and also tells his lord about the Green elves and the disappearance of most of the Sindar. Morgoth decides to wipe out the green elves and the Falathrim.
Boldog and Sauron bring a larger host of orcs out of Angband and pass silently into the highlands of the north. They initially encounter just a few Sindar, who are killed.


E7: Doom

The orc army under Boldog comes south moving suddenly down past Estolad, while another army under Sauron is sent out into the western parts of Beleriand. We see Thingol and Círdan hurry to prepair defensive action. Thingol coordinates movements with the Dwarves to meet the enemy before they get to Menegroth. Círdan prepares for a siege. (Denethor? Wants to be a hero? Keeps a low profile? Thingol doesn't want him in a battle)

Eöl brings the sword Anglachel to Thingol and buys the right to live in Nan Elmoth. He goes there and hides. Thingol puts the black sword away (Melian's advice?)


The Havens are besieged. (Maybe more like battles or skirmishes - like the wolves attacking the Shire, these orcs perhaps don't know how to lay siege and the Falathrim settlements are maybe not so easy to defend that way?)

The curse of Mandos. Finarfin turns back, saying goodbye to his children (all??). Fëanor leaves with the ships.


E8: The First Battle

While Melian sets up the girdle (which could take some time, like even more than one episode?), Thingol and the dwarves fight a part of the eastern orc army and set out to help the Lindi - the major part of the orc army is heading their way.

The green elves are slaughtered on Amon Ereb, Denethor dies (killed by Boldog). (What about the Ents? They could hold off the orcs until the dwarves and Sindar arrive? But some Ents must die.) The Sindar and the dwarves arrive to the battle.

The orcs led by Boldog are defeated but both Thingol and the Green elves have suffered heavy losses. Beleg or Mablung wounded? Boldog manages to escape with some orcs - they go west.

Green Elves
vow to never take a new leader. Thingol prepares for hard times. Some green Elves settle in Doriath as guests of king Thingol (Guest-Elves, Saeros is one of them). (Maybe the Girdle is fully established after this?) Others retreat to Ossiriand. (Treebeard?)


E9: The Ships

Sauron
intensifies the attacks on the Havens. He is joined by Boldog and the defeated orc army coming from the First Battle (a bit of a loser but he has killed Denethor at least).

(At this point, things look really bad for the Sindar, even if they did were victorious in the first battle - one more of those victories and they're finished; they have to pull back and even hide)

Burning of ships (may take some time depending on whether we kill a twin or not)

Fingolfin
sees the smoke across the ocean. Understands what has happened. Decides to move on anyway.

Gothmog
is watching the fires from the burning. Fëanor travels into Hithlum and sets up a camp by the shores of lake Mithrim.

Victory of Fëanor (Dagor-nuin-Giliath): Gothmog sends his orcs down to attack the noldor. The orcs are slaughtered and Gothmog is humiliated.


Helcaraxë – the first steps.


E10:

Fëanor’s
troops forces the northern orc army to retreat. Still, the feeling among the Noldor can be mixed since they might have lost Amras (or is it Amrod?). There is also the issue of Fëanor losing his mental balance.

In the South, Sauron has forced the Falathrim to abandon their cities. They escape on ships and boats. Círdan manages to send a message to Thingol asking for aid.

Morgoth
orders Sauron to leave the south to help at the northern front.


Helcaraxë: Running out of food, animals dying.


E11: (in which there are signs of Valar intervening, which makes the Sun&Moon come with less of a surprise and not out of nowhere)

Fëanor
is killed but the Noldor cause significant damage to the northern orc army.

Sauron does not engage in combat with the Noldor but avoids them and passes close to Doriath. He senses the power of Melian and her girdle close by. ('Something is happening here'). He establishes counter-magic in the valley north of Doriath with the help of Shelob and her kin.

Meanwhile: Círdan dreams of Ulmo (or maybe a fog rolls in and he hears the Ulumori) and since the pressure from the siege isn't quite as relentless when Sauron isn't around, The Falathrim send guerilla units upstream behind the enemy lines (helped by fog?)

Helcaraxë: Light of the Auroras give some hope.



E12:
Thingol
sends people to aid the Falathrim. Maybe dwarves also come?
Sauron plans false treaty and sends out emissaries. Here we must have a scene showing Sauron convincing Gothmog to go along with his plan – or Morgoth makes him go along with it. One of Sauron’s emissaries finds Beleg who is given a message which he delivers to Thingol.

Maedhros
decides to come to a parley.


(The creation of the Sun and the Moon?)

Helcaraxë: The Whirlpool. Death of Elenwë. Idril saved, close call.


E13:

(War in the south in a deadlock?)
Parley trap. The balrogs under Gothmog capture Maedhros; Sauron sends messengers to barter for Maedhros' (who is chained up on a mountain) release with the Fëanoreans, who refuse. The arrival of Fingolfin's host and the rising of the sun - Angband in turmoil. The sun shines on Maedhros hanging on the cliff side. Thingol learns that Fingolfin has arrived with a huge host. The orcs besieging the Falathrim scatter in fear?
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
does some management by fear, letting his servants know that no one has a safe position.

Is this the Spell of bottomless dread?

Boldog's relation to Mairon is probably that he thinks Mairon is a loser and he himself a winner, but they won't have much contact at this stage.
I'm wondering... is Boldog even capable of thinking is such categories of hierarchic struggles? He's most likely a spirit of wrath and violence, thas why he was chosen for this Job wasn't he? So maybe he just doesn't care at all about Gothmog and Sauron and rivalries?

We see Eöl who has some kind of contact with Mîm. This is to establish that Eöl has contact with dwarves of all kinds, and to show that Mîm lives in what is to become Menegroth, and to show two loners.
Hmm... Eol is friends with the Blue Mountain Dwarves. Mim and his Folk are outcasts... from all houses? Maybe Eols Blue MT friends are not very fond when they hear he had something to do with their unbeloved kinsmen?

This leads to the suggestion that the elves should move underground. Who finds Menegroth and suggests that the Sindar should move there?
I would love this to be Thingol! He at first would be reluctand, but then he sees the underground Halls and is infatuated by the Dwarves craftsmanship and love for the earth... in a way... maybe the Name Gonnhirrim has his origin here? Thingsol says something like "You are gonnhirrim!" and Gamil has a glint in his eyes "Yeeees!"

Mîm is tossed out and he is disgruntled by this. (Do we see something of Eöl?)
Is he literally tossed out or does he just feel as if he was tossed out? Like he doesn't want to share his realm with anybody else, last of anyone with Elves!

Sauron plans false treaty and sends out emissaries. Here we must have a scene showing Sauron convincing Gothmog to go along with his plan – or Morgoth makes him go along with it. One of Sauron’s emissaries finds Beleg who is given a message which he delivers to Thingol.
Maedhros
decides to come to a parley.
I never really bought this thing! I mean: everybody who thinks he can negotiate with Morgoth is plainly mad, isn't he? And the Noldor know with whom they have to do above everybody else...

or does Sauron trick them by making them believe his loyalty is not truly with Melkor? Could Maedhros think he might turn Sauron?
 
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Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I#m wondering... is Boldog even capable of thinking is such categories of hierarchic struggles? He's most likely a spirit of wrath and violence, that#s why he was chosen for this Job wasn't he? So maybe he just doesn't care at all about Gothmog and Sauron and rivalries?
I think he is able to identify winners and losers, or at least think others are losing if he feels he is winning.
 

Haakon

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Hmm... Eol is friends with the Blue Mountain Dwarves. Mim and his Folk are outcasts... from all houses? Maybe Eols Blue MT friends are not very fond when they hear he had something to do with their unbeloved kinsmen?
I think this would be one reason to make his contact with Mîm an unfriendly one.
 

Haakon

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I would love this to be Thingol! He at first would be reluctand, but then he sees the underground Halls and is infatuated by the Dwarves craftsmanship and love for the earth... in a way... maybe the Name Gonnhirrim has his origin here? Thingsol says something like "You are Ginnhirrim!" and Gamil has a glint in his eyes "Yeeees!"
Wonderful scene!
 

MithLuin

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Staff member
Question - what are the Sindar doing for episodes 10-13? If we say 'not much', they are going to argue that *that* is why Denethor's death should occur later. The southern front should continue without Sauron's guidance, and we need to figure out what Círdan is going to do - he is outside the protection of the Girdle.
 

Haakon

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I would love to see us focusing on Círdan. Thingol could send some fighters there. Maybe the dwarves do as well.
 

MithLuin

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For episode 13, the Sindar storyline can be that word reaches Thingol of the arrival of Fingolfin's host from across the Ice.

We just need actual events for episodes 10, 11, and 12 to sell this. What use are Círdan's ships when his people are being attacked from land? There has to be something clever he can do with them. Obviously his opponents can't box him in or lay siege, as he just escapes by sea and brings news and supplies in that way. But...?
 

Haakon

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For episode 13, the Sindar storyline can be that word reaches Thingol of the arrival of Fingolfin's host from across the Ice.

We just need actual events for episodes 10, 11, and 12 to sell this. What use are Círdan's ships when his people are being attacked from land? There has to be something clever he can do with them. Obviously his opponents can't box him in or lay siege, as he just escapes by sea and brings news and supplies in that way. But...?
Círdan and the Falathrim will have ships and boats of different sizes. They could go upstream and do guerilla style attacks from behind the enemy lines.
I added some reactions to the arrival of the sun and Fingolfin
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Well cirdan has ulmos support. On the other hand: i think the falathrim will definitely need weapons and defense- weapons/ machinery... Maybe that's where the dwarves should come in, even if cirdan maybe wouldn't like their ideas of siege- defense..
 

Haakon

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Well cirdan has ulmos support. On the other hand: i think the falathrim will definitely need weapons and defense- weapons/ machinery... Maybe that's where the dwarves should come in, even if cirdan maybe wouldn't like their ideas of siege- defense..
Ok I added some ideas about Ulmo.
 

MithLuin

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I never really bought this thing! I mean: everybody who thinks he can negotiate with Morgoth is plainly mad, isn't he? And the Noldor know with whom they have to do above everybody else...

or does Sauron trick them by making them believe his loyalty is not truly with Melkor? Could Maedhros think he might turn Sauron?
I agree that plots that depend on one side acting like idiots are weak - much better for us to give a plausible reason for characters to act as they do. Usually, it's the Valar being chumps, but here, it's the Sons of Fëanor...or, well, one of them, anyway.

I do want there to be a *heated* argument where one of the brothers tells Maedhros off for being an idiot, which will give Maedhros a chance to explain his thoughts. It's early days yet to work this out, but I think the grief of their father's death, the compunction of the newly-renewed oath, and the confidence that he can out-betray Morgoth by coming with more firepower than they agreed.....and for his brother to say, you idiot, you're just going to get yourself killed. To which he replies, 'if he brings a silmaril....'
Anyway, we have time to work that out, and all the nuance that we can put into that trickery, the better.
 

Haakon

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None of them are idiots but all of them are sons of the guy who slammed the door in Morhoth's face, and they have forced his troops to retreat. I do think that we should show them planning a trap of their own, which seems like a smart plan, and they can even choose the place of the parley and scout the area and stuff. And then something goes horribly wrong, a giant worm comes up from the ground and... well not that, but Sauron turns out to be a kind of adversary they didn't expect him to be and then suddenly there are too many balrogs.
I'd like Maedhros to be caught by the whip of a balrog we later on will meet in Moria.
 
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