Session 3.08 - S3 Ep3: Meanwhile in Beleriand

Haakon

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Staff member
I realise that there are problems with my proposed timeline, but not much more than with the one currently decided on. I hope that we can adjust it and improve it so much that it may be presentable as a reasonable alternative. I changed some of the stuff about Sauron so it's not too different from what the execs have talked about anymore. He gets rehabilitated earlier than in my first drafts.
 

Brian Dimmick

Active Member
None of them are idiots but all of them are sons of the guy who slammed the door in Morhoth's face, and they have forced his troops to retreat. I do think that we should show them planning a trap of their own, which seems like a smart plan, and they can even choose the place of the parley and scout the area and stuff. And then something goes horribly wrong, a giant worm comes up from the ground and... well not that, but Sauron turns out to be a kind of adversary they didn't expect him to be and then suddenly there are too many balrogs.
I'd like Maedhros to be caught by the whip of a balrog we later on will meet in Moria.
Agreed. They have just won a great battle and think they have defeated all that Morgoth has to offer. They understand Morgoth is treacherous and was able to destroy the trees by coming on them in secret, but do they really have much idea of his military might? It sounds like they fought mostly orcs in the Battle Under Stars, and while Feanor was overcome by Balrogs its' not clear how much his sons saw of them when they came to his rescue. Maedhros could suspect that Morgoth will bring a larger than agreed force of orcs, but also believe that the Noldor will have no trouble defeating orcs. It's naive, and some of the other sons will tell him so, but based on their experience I don't think it's absurd.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
We just need a good quarrel among the brothers to make it believable: they all know morgoth will try foul play, but they think themselves more clever, they think they can best him. Feanorean self- esteem... Of course they are terribly wrong, but megalomania and self overjudgement is a family trait.
 
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MithLuin

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I'm sure we can sell that.

I'm more concerned with the Beleriand storyline, actually. There is stuff that needs to be happening, but I don't know how to make it all cohesive. For instance, it's easy to see how Beleg and Mablung will play a role this season. It's less clear to me how to work in Daeron and Lúthien. And I don't have a good feel for the roles of the dwarves.
 

Haakon

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I'm sure we can sell that.

I'm more concerned with the Beleriand storyline, actually. There is stuff that needs to be happening, but I don't know how to make it all cohesive. For instance, it's easy to see how Beleg and Mablung will play a role this season. It's less clear to me how to work in Daeron and Lúthien. And I don't have a good feel for the roles of the dwarves.
I agree. We could use Luthien and Daeron as representatives for those elves who don't fight. We have quite a lot of fighting going on in Beleriand and that could risk getting boring if not contrasted with other scenes. Daeron singing and Luthien dancing of course but also fearing attacks (will the orcs find/reach Menegroth? What happens to our kin the Falathrim?) etc
 

Haakon

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I agree. We could use Luthien and Daeron as representatives for those elves who don't fight. We have quite a lot of fighting going on in Beleriand and that could risk getting boring if not contrasted with other scenes. Daeron singing and Luthien dancing of course but also fearing attacks (will the orcs find/reach Menegroth? What happens to our kin the Falathrim?) etc
It's not my favourite scene in PJ ROTK but not bad and could be done with good effect: I'm thinking about Pippin singing while Faramir attacks. Similar things could be done with Luthien and/or Daeron
 

Brian Dimmick

Active Member
I agree. We could use Luthien and Daeron as representatives for those elves who don't fight. We have quite a lot of fighting going on in Beleriand and that could risk getting boring if not contrasted with other scenes. Daeron singing and Luthien dancing of course but also fearing attacks (will the orcs find/reach Menegroth? What happens to our kin the Falathrim?) etc
What about having Daeron and to some extent Luthien involved in the debate about whether to move into Menegroth? They could be opposed to the move--they both love the starlight and the open forest and seen o need to live underground. Daeron can articulate this love, while Luthien (depending on her age) probably doesn't need to, but just begs her father not to take her away from the stars. Daeron reluctantly submits to his king's decision, and Luthien grows to love Menegroth too, but they both will still come back to the open spaces to sing and dance.


I like the outline, but I would like to do more with the Green-elves. They show up with ents, and then a couple of episodes later they are getting slaughtered. We need more reasons to be interested in them. Do they have any history of contact with the dwarves in the Blue Mountains? Does Thingol expect Denethor to acknowledge him as lord, as the other groups in Beleriand have done, and Denethor declines? Just ideas.

One theme we could develop in the Beleriand plot is that the Sindar/Green-elves are peaceful people who are not expecting war and are unprepared for it. Maybe there is even some resistance to fighting--a suggestion that maybe we should just go back east past the Blue Mountains and let Morgoth have Beleriand. (But maybe that makes the elves look weak--we would need to play that carefully). We play up the contrast between the Noldor, who learn about battle and arm themselves without any need to do so in Valinor, and the Sindar who make no preparations for war and may resist its coming even when it is necessary. Just as sowing strife in a time of peace is the work of Melkor, sometimes fighting is necessary to stop evil. We can show the elves of Beleriand begin as unprepared for fighting or even to defend themselves--they lack useful weapons and, though they fight valiantly with what they have, their lines are disorganized and they show no knowledge of tactics. Over the episodes we see them start to get better, but still not faring all that well outside of the Girdle.

What is the relationship of Cirdan and the Falathrim to Thingol? They acknowledge him as king, but do they have a lot of contact/coordination? Does Cirdan resent being left to defend himself while Doriath is protected by the Girdle?
 

MithLuin

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Lúthien will eventually turn out to be a mirror, revealing the souls and intentions of others. Thingol may be a good king, but when it comes to his daughter, he is greedy/possessive...and that's his flaw with the silmaril and the dwarves that eventually costs him his life. Celegorm has never been the world's greatest guy, but Huan has stood with him through it all, perhaps convincing the audience that he can't be all that bad if he has such a loyal dog who loves him. And then he meets Lúthien and decides marriage-by-kidnap is a good idea, and both Huan and the audience are going to give up on him.

So, maybe some of what makes her such a moment-of-truth could be made clear right from the start? Is she the type of person who can see your soul for what it is? If so...her reaction to the dwarves could be completely unique. I don't want her to be a total innocent, but she doesn't find them unlovely or strange. Rather...she's a bit taken aback by their practical sense of a business transaction - that anything can be bought and sold. So...wary, but not grossed out. Would that work?

And yes, she should represent the heart of her people - the desire to dance under the stars and live in the woods.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
As far as i remember the greenelves were refugees... Things were not going all right in the east... Beleriand is still in peace while wild beasts and unknown horrors are already terrorising rhovanion and eriador. The green elves escaped from that ... So in a way i'd expect them not to be a peaceful people at all. They would know fighting and fear far longer and better than the sindar, yet they most likely have not met the orcs ( though they have in the books i guess... At least it is hinted at, if not directly said).

The arrival of the greenelves could foreshow future troubles to the sindar. Plus: it is never stated what happened to lenwe is it? He just disappears in the books and is never talked about again - is there a dark secret? A taboo ?

Wasn't lenwe a kinsman of cirdan and thingols? They would wish to know what happened to denethors father...

I see a possible plot- idea here
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
One thing that just came to my mind: we have the sindar meet the orcs for the first time and mistaking them for savaged avari...

Now suddenly those rugged, wild , strange elves under denethor come from the east...

Might the sindar mistrust them at first? Might they even have difficulties to distinguish between both groups at first sight?

It could be not too far fetched... They have some trouble telling orcs and dwarves apart too, and if the green elves are more warlike and savage than the sindar that might add to them being confused at first.. We could give the greenelves a more savaged, tribal outlook if we like. I think that could work..
 

Haakon

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One thing that just came to my mind: we have the sindar meet the orcs for the first time and mistaking them for savaged avari...

Now suddenly those rugged, wild , strange elves under denethor come from the east...

Might the sindar mistrust them at first? Might they even have difficulties to distinguish between both groups at first sight?

It could be not too far fetched... They have some trouble telling orcs and dwarves apart too, and if the green elves are more warlike and savage than the sindar that might add to them being confused at first.. We could give the greenelves a more savaged, tribal outlook if we like. I think that could work..
Interesting. I agree that the green elves should have a more savage, tribal look, but I'm not sure I agree that they should be more warlike. Nevertheless, it all boils down to them perhaps being mistaken for proto orcs initially, which I think could work.

In the end though, I think there are more than one scene already with Sindar encountering people and wondering what kind of beasts they are...another one would perhaps make them look completely xenophobic. I think we should let the dwarves working in Menegroth tell Thingol about the newcomers, so instead of a hostile meeting, it will be a kind of reunion with great expectations, which then leads to a meeting which makes Thingol a bit disappointed because his kin is so uncivilised. Kind of like Estel coming to the Dúnedain camp.
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Well, not warlike in the sense they are looking forwards to fight. Quite the opposite. But they already had to fight a lot, and they lost too often and too much. So warlike is wrong, war- wary would fit better.so i doubt their meeting with the sindar is a hostile one... And if it is the greenelves should be the faction who is paranoid and the sindar have trouble to understand why this is so.

The sindars first meeting with the orcs also isn't an agressive one yet (?), the orcs are still shy and discreet while the sindar are not openly hostile but just curious and irritated.

The first meeting between sindar and dwarves could be a hostile one. But i' m not sure if the sindar would be the agressors here. .. And even if they are both factions soon realize that the other ones are obviously not enemies.. And then they start to reach out hands and try to get to know each other - which might not work very well at first , not until the first sindar become enarmored with the beauty of dwarves craftsmanship and realize how much love the gonnhirrim put into everything they do. After that the ice is broken ...
 

Haakon

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In this the beginning of times I think most people on the 'good side' should be non aggressive at the first meeting with a new culture or people. This doesn't necessarily mean that they shouldn't draw their swords and axes or put arrows to their bows when strangers appear in the wild after years of not meeting anyone at all. But they should rather quickly identify 'good people'. This is certainly the case when the Sindar meet Denethor's people, but maybe we can work in something more of suspicion between the different elven groups and the dwarves. I think that the greatest cultural difference probably is between the green elves and the dwrves but as I said earlier, I think the green elves have met dwarves before and know something about how to deal with them.
 

MithLuin

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The Green Elves could share their experiences with the dwarves with the Sindar when they meet. In a 'we've met' way that suggests something other than perfectly happy friendship.
 

Haakon

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Side note: When Denethor's people arrive, they are actually still Nandor, or what? They won't be given/take the name Laiquendi/Green elves until after the first battle and Denethor's death, and applies to those who live in Ossiriand, right?
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I thought that there wasn't war going on in Eriador and Rhovanion, but rather occasional wandering monsters. However, we could go with Haerangil's interpretation instead, and that could explain what became of Lenwe. Still I think even the Laiquendi started out very much inexperiened with war -- look how poorly they defended themselves. I like Brian's suggestions of showing their tactical inexperience, and contrasting them to the Noldor who arm and train themselves and become aggressive for absolutely no reason.

I like Haerangil's suggestion that the Sindar may distrust the Laiquendi at first. By this time they've recently (by elven standards) met the Dwarves... and the Orcs, which look a lot like Avari. They wouldn't fight, but they may be wary until they get a close look at the eyes and faces of the Laiquendi. Or hear their voices, and recognize their tongue as very close to Sindarin.

I would prefer Lenwe to be a leader who isn't related to the royalty. The leadership can't be all in just one family, come on.

I like MithLuin's ideas about Luthien. She sees to the heart of things, not as clearly as Melien but still with an insight that many Elves lack.



EDIT: Oh! Another thing you can show is Daeron inventing writing, and show the different reactions of the Elves and Dwarves. The Sindar think that's kind of neat but why write things down when we all have photographic memory and live forever? The Dwarves think it's great! They secretly have ideographic writing already, but decide cirth are more convenient, and better for using in public since their own language is so secret.
 
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Haakon

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Staff member
EDIT: Oh! Another thing you can show is Daeron inventing writing, and show the different reactions of the Elves and Dwarves. The Sindar think that's kind of neat but why write things down when we all have photographic memory and live forever? The Dwarves think it's great! They secretly have ideographic writing already, but decide cirth are more convenient, and better for using in public since their own language is so secret.
Great!!
 
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