Session 3.08 - S3 Ep3: Meanwhile in Beleriand

[Haakon]

Another thing. The Angband stuff. Should we put it after the eruption of the Thangorodrim? I love the volcanoes as an episode ending but since we've stepped back in time, a sudden move to Angband now actually feels like a step forward in time (and then we will move back again?). Should we even wait with more Angband until the next episode? That would cause problems, I think.
Or should we wait with Thangorodrim as well and jsut end the episode with Beleg and Mablung meeting proto-orcs?

 

[Haakon]

An alternative ending scene would be Beleg&Mablung encountering the proto-orcs and those run away because a terrible scream is heard far away. The night is silent apart from some distant thunder. The elves wait and wonder. Then suddenly a huge dark spidery form thunders past.

 

[Haakon]

No the more I think about it the more I'm convinced that we have to push Angband and Thangorodrim to the next episode. Those events are closer to the Valinor story time.

 

[MithLuin]

Yes, I am content to leave Angband alone for now - to have a purely elvish perspective on the Beleriand material in this episode.

For one thing, the episode is already sharing time with Uinen's storm. Showing Angband cuts into the time even further. But as you point out, the step back in time makes it nonsensical to show 'current events' in Angband during Episode 3.

Unknown fears/creatures in the darkness might be a good way to end the episode.

The building of Thangorodrim featured at the end of Episode 1. So, if we show it again, it should be a really blatant time-stamp to the audience saying 'all caught up now.' We shouldn't go back in time after that.

The other clear 'time has passed' marker tends to be children growing up. So, if Lúthien were a child in Episode 3, but an adult in Episode 4, that would definitely let the audience know that we are 'some time later.'

Melian's knowledge of events in Valinor is also a good time stamp. It's possible she has some vague awareness of the Darkening of Valinor, but doesn't know what her deep sense of unease/wrongness means...until Melkor bursts on the scene in the north and Thangorodrim goes up in flames.

I vote against Valar-interaction in Beleriand, in general, but a case could be made for Círdan knowing the mind of Ulmo.

 

[Haakon]

Ok. This could give us room to expand the Eöl stuff and give him two scenes - one with Thingol and one with Mîm. We can also include elements we've considered for later episodes. But I'm not sure what that would be; the dwarves maybe? They do actually appear during the second age of Melkor's imprisonment. Then we'd show the proto-orc encounter earlier and end with the Dwarves. Or the opposite?

 

[Haakon]

Back to the plants and growing things - there seems to be a factor here that we've missed. Most of the plants lay under 'the Sleep of Yavanna', which I can only understand as a state of waiting. But Melian apparently had the power to release plants from that sleep. This puts the Sindar in a very special position (and it makes things a bit easier for us). We don't get specific examples except for the niphredil flowers that greet Lúthien at her birth but this is clearly the case.

 

[Haerangil]

The sleep of yavanna! Of course! That must be a kind of spell that leaves rhe flora in a kind if vegetative state so it doesn't die in starlight <500 lux

Cirdan holding correspondence with ulmo should be a very important thing! Ulmo is the ine vala who interfers most strong and even in person wirh the events in beleriand.

 

[Brian Dimmick]

Back to the plants and growing things - there seems to be a factor here that we've missed. Most of the plants lay under 'the Sleep of Yavanna', which I can only understand as a state of waiting. But Melian apparently had the power to release plants from that sleep. This puts the Sindar in a very special position (and it makes things a bit easier for us). We don't get specific examples except for the niphredil flowers that greet Lúthien at her birth but this is clearly the case.

The sleep of Yavanna isn't a complete solution to the bigger question, since not everything woudl have been lifeless and barren. The Avari wandering east of Beleriand (and the dwarves) have to be able to eat and take some joy in wandering through the land. But it solves most of our issues, since we won't show much (if anything) happening outside of Beleriand so don't have to answer that question. But we should show a narrower range of plants and wildlife, so that once the Sun rises we can show the sprouting up of many new things in the light.

Ok. This could give us room to expand the Eöl stuff and give him two scenes - one with Thingol and one with Mîm. We can also include elements we've considered for later episodes. But I'm not sure what that would be; the dwarves maybe? They do actually appear during the second age of Melkor's imprisonment. Then we'd show the proto-orc encounter earlier and end with the Dwarves. Or the opposite?

I would still say end with the proto-orcs and put the dwarves earlier if we want to. I like the element of uncertainty and fear it strikes at the end of this episode, especially if our audience won't learn anything about Angband here.

 

[Faelivrin]

In our story, it should seem fairly default that leadership on the Journey = a position of authority in the court of Doriath. But we are now introducing some new characters who were not there on the Journey (namely Lúthien and Daeron, but also Saeros if we're using him this season). And Eol of course is Avari.

Huh, I thought Eol was Sindarin. I guess JRRT changed his mind a bunch about that guy.

Obviously, *any* plant life at all surviving from the destruction of the Lamps until the rising of the Sun is not remotely realistic. And yet we clearly have forests, etc. Yavanna's magic sustains them, moving right along.... So yes, they can have crops without sunlight, but we probably don't want to draw *too* much attention to that, as it will look absurd.

Yeah, my thoughts on any life existing in Kuivienen, Beleriand, and the route between at this time are a vague "Orome/Yavanna/Melian did it." Orome and Yavanna were wandering around in Middle-Earth, I just assume that everything woke up temporarily and grew with no light wherever Orome had been recently. He, Yavanna, and/or Vana could have deliberately made the Great March route fruitful. Melian may be sustaining Beleriand; and Osse, Uinen, and/or Ulmo might be doing the same for sea life along its coast. Tolkien's response to this question was to scrap the entire cosmology and start writing round-world versions of everything ... so we'll just have to ignore it.

I'm more confused about weather and temperature. Logically, before the Sun it should be perpetual winter, right? But there are flowing streams at Kuivienen and flowering plants in Beleriand. So was it more like perpetual autumn? If winter didn't exist until the Sun, who made it? Surely not the Valar. Did Morgoth inflict winter on the whole of Arda in retaliation for the Sunrise? But some aspect of winter is caused by the Sun taking different paths in different seasons, even before the Downfall of Numenor.

It's all pretty confusing.

But we should show a narrower range of plants and wildlife, so that once the Sun rises we can show the sprouting up of many new things in the light.

Stick to mostly nocturnal animals? I don't know what the distinction would be for plants. But everything that will be Ard-Galen is barren and lifeless so far.

I'm in favor of nocturnal Ice Age animals, but I don't expect anyone else to support that idea.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

He never could make his mind up about Eol. Orodreth and Gil-Galad kept switching back and forth about their place in the family tree.

 

[Haerangil]

Well i DO think that the sleep of yavanna would affect all of middle- earth, not just doriath. I also think the avari would have lembas grain too... Orome gave it to the elves at cuivienen, it is not that the eldar would withhold if from their brothers who did not join them.my question would be: how could a movie adaption depict that visually? I mean the sleeping plantlife...

Eol is an issue.. Tolkien changed his mind about him several times. In the pub sil he is sinda. But the difference between avari and eldar is a pretty theoretical one .. Those avari who did not join the great wandering but left cuivienen at a later time and eventually drifted to the west and came to beleriand - would they not be eldar in some peoples view?

However tolkiens main point with eol was that he was a great smith, loved starlight and hated the sun and the eldar... So he thought about making him a tatya avar, an eastern kinsman of the noldor who did not at first join his kindred when they went towards valinor. He does have a lot of noldo qualities when you think about it. I like to think he was a cousin of feanors of something... He certainly does share some trades of that peculiar family.

The thing about winter... Yes melkor made it in the early mythology. And maybe nienna to some point. There are winter giants and cold demons of morgoths in those early stories too but they never made it to the pub sil as far as i remember. The early world does not work at all along with our modern physics... Where melkor is strong there is perpetual ice age, where vana is strong there's perpetual spring. The valars influence does clash in certain areas that's why anfauglith and dor daedelos are cold and barren winter landscapes while beleriand is relatively lush ( melkor has to cheat at some points... How the hell does he sustain his numberless orcs and beasts with foodcrops?). I would like night active ice age animals.. Especially prehistoric megafauna.

 

[Haakon]

East of the Blue Mts., the Sleep of Yavanna could perhaps have been broken by Iarwain. Maybe the Ents and Entwives had some effect as well?

 

[MithLuin]

We depicted Eol as an elf at Cuivienen who quickly got angry and left the great debate early in Season 2. So, he's definitely Avari in our adaptation, not Sindar. I am not sure if we made it clear if he were of the people of the Noldor or the Teleri to begin with. (We went back and forth on that, and since he's a bit of a loner, his affiliation might not be clear.) There were arguments for wanting him to be related to the Noldor (particularly the family of Míriel, who also become Avari), and this would come into play with his affinity with craftsmanship and dwarves, and the insults leveled against him by the sons of Fëanor. But then again, there were also reasons to want him to be a relative of Thingol (perhaps distantly, but still 'kin' in some sense), so initially Teleri. I'd have to go back and check the script outlines to see if any explicit choices were made there.

We did discuss having prehistoric creatures in Season 1. Haakon and I like the idea of the destruction of the Lamps corresponding roughly with the K-T extinction event, though to be fair, that's not an official decision of the show. Oromë and Tulkas hunting down some of the beasts of horn and ivory *is* part of the show. We definitely were leaning towards extinct beasts there.

It was very important to me that we not show 'modern' flora and fauna in the earliest days of Almaren. I didn't want fields of grass and flowering plants and trees right off the bat - I wanted to show a gradual development of such things. The first flowers, bees, honey, and mead are all developed for Tulkas' wedding under the light of the Lamps.

For similar reasons, I do *not* want to show dinosaurs as contemporary with elves. It's one thing to establish that Morgoth might have kept some beasts in his menagerie that could later give rise to, say, dragons, or the steeds of the Nazgul in the 3rd Age, even (off screen, of course). It's another to have elves tangling with T-rexes. Let's...not. As for Ice Ages...obviously, those are much more modern, and one could argue for saber-toothed cats or mastodons co-existing with elves, if one wanted to.

 

[Haakon]

We depicted Eol as an elf at Cuivienen who quickly got angry and left the great debate early in Season 2. So, he's definitely Avari in our adaptation, not Sindar. I am not sure if we made it clear if he were of the people of the Noldor or the Teleri to begin with. (We went back and forth on that, and since he's a bit of a loner, his affiliation might not be clear.) There were arguments for wanting him to be related to the Noldor (particularly the family of Míriel, who also become Avari), and this would come into play with his affinity with craftsmanship and dwarves, and the insults leveled against him by the sons of Fëanor. But then again, there were also reasons to want him to be a relative of Thingol (perhaps distantly, but still 'kin' in some sense), so initially Teleri. I'd have to go back and check the script outlines to see if any explicit choices were made there.

We did discuss having prehistoric creatures in Season 1. Haakon and I like the idea of the destruction of the Lamps corresponding roughly with the K-T extinction event, though to be fair, that's not an official decision of the show. Oromë and Tulkas hunting down some of the beasts of horn and ivory *is* part of the show. We definitely were leaning towards extinct beasts there.

It was very important to me that we not show 'modern' flora and fauna in the earliest days of Almaren. I didn't want fields of grass and flowering plants and trees right off the bat - I wanted to show a gradual development of such things. The first flowers, bees, honey, and mead are all developed for Tulkas' wedding under the light of the Lamps.

For similar reasons, I do *not* want to show dinosaurs as contemporary with elves. It's one thing to establish that Morgoth might have kept some beasts in his menagerie that could later give rise to, say, dragons, or the steeds of the Nazgul in the 3rd Age, even (off screen, of course). It's another to have elves tangling with T-rexes. Let's...not. As for Ice Ages...obviously, those are much more modern, and one could argue for saber-toothed cats or mastodons co-existing with elves, if one wanted to.

I would argue against megafauna at this point, at least as predominant animal life. Soon enough we will have a wildlife that's more contemporary and we would be forced to make a really big evolutionary jump if we make a too clear commitment to the megafauna.
I think the time for megafauna was passed last season. After the Great Journey, it feels wrong somehow.

 

[Haerangil]

There's still the possibility that Eol is of mixed heritage , but we don't have to detail his exact family relations.

Megafauna... I think I'll have to explain this a bit. Larger than usual creatures are often found in Tolkien's works as are seemingly prehistoric creatures like the Winged Fellbeasts or the Mûmakil. The Great Eagles are obvious as are the Great spiders and great wolves, apart from those the texts mentions big Moths, large crickets, enormous bees, Giant Mice, Great Swans, Great Cats, Great Serpents, great Hounds, gigantic big bears, great Boar, large snails, great whales, Sea-serpents, Great glow-worms and arguably we might have possible indications for great kine, great sea-Turtles, overlarge bumblebees and hornets, great Sealions, great Narwhals and oversized badgers.

So i am not arguing for Dinosaurs or the like. But I DO think we could take inspiration from prehistoric Fauna for some of the beasts that inhabit Middle-Earth in the first Age. I'm also not thinking of woolly mammoths or Rhinos but we could have elephant seals, Blue whales, Dunkleosteus, Aurochs, Steppe bisons, cave lions, Cave bears, Irish giant deer, Homotherium and maybe outside of Beleriand Cave hyenas, Straight-tusked elephant and the Ursus maritimus tyrannus. Our Beasts don#t have to look exactly like their historical antetypes, but we could allude to them, like Tolkien did with the Mumakil and winged Fellbeasts.

 

[MithLuin]

Some Ice Age creatures were alive as recently as 10,000 years ago. ALL of Tolkien's stories take place in a pre-history that pre-dates....ancient Egypt. So, we can toss in hints that Middle Earth is old, especially now in the First Age, without being weird or inconsistent. But I do agree we should be careful *what* we incorporate from the extinct species list. It should match the rest of the location/climate depicted as to appear more natural.

Huan is an Irish Wolfhound in part because those are a rather old breed of dog. The Hobbit films essentially tried to incorporate the extinct Irish elk (largest deer ever).

Irish elk:

Thranduil's mount:

Likewise with the Wargs of the LotR films (which I do not like *at all*) being meant to invoke an extinct creature.
Apparently, I am not the only one to feel that way:

You have to be really careful how you do it.

The Nazgul's fell beast mounts *should* look like an ancient/extinct creature in the world they appear in - a throwback that is misplaced. Giant spiders and giant eagles, well, should look suitably giant compared to their real-world counterparts. Most other creatures should look like they are naturally occurring.


We do have threads for discussing creatures and beasts, though, so certainly specific ideas/suggestions can be brought up there.

https://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?forums/season-1.19/

 

[Haakon]

Edited.
Ok here's an update of my sketch of this episode. I present it so we can discuss the problems with it. It could almost be called 'Many meetings'. But I kind of like the fairytale touch of it, the three meetings (Mîm, Dwarves, proto-orcs). Most of it is related to Thingol and his kingship in some way.
We have to add the frame.

Episode 3: Of the Sindar

1. Storm of Uinen.

2. We see Círdan,see the life of the Falathrim, their settlements, ships etc. This is long before the Kinslaying and certainly long before Círdan hears about the crime. He has completed a new large ship. A visiting Sindar - let's say it's Beleg (well it could be anyone) - is impressed and says he'll make sure to tell King Thingol about it. 'Yes, tell Elwë', Círdan says, implying he doesn’t put much worth in titles (but also informing us about the name change).

3. We go toThingol and Melian, and their court, engaged in a movable feast, a hunting festival to honor Oromë. They arrive in Nan Elmoth, partly because Lúthien, their daughter, wants to visit the place of her parents’ love trance. She dances under the stars and Daeron, a new face to the viewers, sings. Beleg is there as well, and Mablung.

4. Eöl arrives, crashes the party, along with a couple of servants. He says he’s found a home in Nan Elmoth, and that they are disturbing him. Thingol doesn’t approve. He says that fine, Eöl can stay there, but it’s within Thingol’s and Melian’s domain, and they won’t restrict their movements. Eöl stomps off as usual.

5. Melian councels Thingol: He is king of the Sindar, but there are lands beyond the Ered Luin where others live. Thingol recalls the Avari and the Nandor. Melian says that others have come to Beleriand. Thingol sends out Beleg and Mablung to find what these others are. Beleg goes northwest and Mablung southeast.

6. Eöl meets Mîm – at first, he has his servants hold the petty-dwarf down, but he soon realises that he’s harmless and releases him. Mîm now learns that Eöl has a grudge against Thingol. In this meeting Mîm says he himself has found a place to live that the Sindar king doesn’t know about. He recommends Eöl to do the same.

7. Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod open gates on the Mount Dolmed hillside. They look down upon Beleriand and exchange words in a strange language that we don’t understand. They see Mablung in the distance. They blow a horn, and we see Mablung react. (Well...I'm not sure about this at all. I want them to have an initial encounter but maybe it should be Mablung discovering the Dwarves, not the other way around. It seems that the Dwarves should be a bit less keen to make contact. On the other hand, we can't make them too secretive or they would never meet at all.)

8. Beleg encounters proto-orcs. The elf happens to come across some sorry looking beasts wandering - early versions of orcs. These orcs run away. (Where is this - close to Eithel Sirion?)

 

[Faelivrin]

We depicted Eol as an elf at Cuivienen who quickly got angry and left the great debate early in Season 2.

LOL that sounds like Eol.

By Ice Age animals I mean only certain animals that actually lived in western Europe during the very last part of the Ice Age, 14,500 to 11,500 years ago in the real world. I can tell you exactly which animals I have in mind, including some that were wiped out much more recently (aurochs, tarpan, giant deer) and in fact mostly animals that still exist (wisent, reindeer, walrus, polar bear, lion, hyena, maybe saiga). No mastodons or sabre-tooths, let alone anything pre-Ice Age. Not even oliphaunts so far north. No dinosaurs! I suppose pterosaurs must have survived somewhere to be turned into Fell Beasts, but I assumed Dragons were made from regular snakes and lizards, since they're so snake-like. It should feel like slightly prehistoric Europe, not a prehuman era, nor a mashup of multiple geological eras.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

We depicted Eol as an elf at Cuivienen who quickly got angry and left the great debate early in Season 2. So, he's definitely Avari in our adaptation, not Sindar. I am not sure if we made it clear if he were of the people of the Noldor or the Teleri to begin with. (We went back and forth on that, and since he's a bit of a loner, his affiliation might not be clear.)

To my recollection, we deliberately left it unclear.

 

[Haerangil]

@hakon!

Love it! Very good...

I like the isea if the hunt to worship orome. Orome would be totally important to all eldar. Like the eol scenes too!