Session 3.08 - S3 Ep3: Meanwhile in Beleriand
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
Marielle
Well-Known Member
Hmm... I wonder if we can't play with this. As a Catholic growing up in the deep South, I learned early to carefully distinguish honoring/revering vs. worshiping, and to convey that to my peers, but it is a fine line, especially when outside looking in. The grayer elves might occasionally find themselves on the wrong side of that line, I think, or at the very least blurring it, without violating Tolkien's world too much.
Brian Dimmick
Active Member
I agree that worship/reverence is the important line here, and that it is fuzzy and might not be appreciated by the elves. But I'm not sure they would face much temptation to cross that line. I think the key for them is memory. They remember Orome, and what he has done and the power he has, and they enjoy telling those stories and remembering that the Valar had a large part in forming the world in which they take joy. But they aren't asking Orome for anything, or expecting that he will hear what they are saying or respond in any way, and it wouldn't occur ot them to do those things. What is particularly challenging for us, though, is that we can't convey this distinction through dialogue, because the elves won't be thinking about it (and because theological discussions on the nature of the Valar would bore most of our audience). All we can do is emphasize certain things about any kind of ceremony they might do, and hope the audience gets the point.
Brian Dimmick
Active Member
The one thing I would suggest here is that, while the proto-orcs should be skittish and run away from Beleg, it should be clear from the encounter that they are not good/healthy. We should see some small-scale wanton destruction, like some trees cut down or hacked apart, or an animal killed for no reason. Something about these creatures is at odds with the natural order, and Beleg should sense this and be disturbed.
It's beginning to sound like a true horror scene. How about this - or do you think it's too much:
Beleg is in the woods and notices something, movement, or a sound. Is it an elf? Or an animal? He moves closer. He comes to a small clearing. A couple of beings are squatting with the back to him, hunched over a large, dead animal. With long, thin black hair and pointy ears, they can be mistaken for elves for a second or two. But one of them turns around and he/she has his or her face covered in blood. They've been eating directly from the belly of the animal. Beleg is appalled and calls out to them. The two beings are scared by him and run away.
It ends with Beleg doing something with the animal as a sign of respect.
Beleg is in the woods and notices something, movement, or a sound. Is it an elf? Or an animal? He moves closer. He comes to a small clearing. A couple of beings are squatting with the back to him, hunched over a large, dead animal. With long, thin black hair and pointy ears, they can be mistaken for elves for a second or two. But one of them turns around and he/she has his or her face covered in blood. They've been eating directly from the belly of the animal. Beleg is appalled and calls out to them. The two beings are scared by him and run away.
It ends with Beleg doing something with the animal as a sign of respect.
Maybe it's best if Beleg calls out to them and that's when they turn around.
Hehe yes it has that level of scariness to it. It shouldn't be super scary, like in a really scary horror movie.
To broaden that discussion, I think it is good if the scenes with those we call 'the bad guys' should be scary in some way, each time. I don't mean jump scares and such things, but I mean that we have to get a bad feeling about these individuals and what they're up to. We talk about the fall of Melkor and the fall of Mairon, but to some degree it should be obvious that this will only lead to bad things, pain and suffering. We should feel uncomfortable with the Balrogs, and expect bad things to happen at almost all times. We could have them randomly kill underlings or set fire to stuff, I don't know, but show them act in a way that's not entirely understandable, and certainly not likeable. We've chosen nice looking actors for some of the Angband gang, Mairon and Thuringwethil for example, but their appearance should be a contrast to a more or less constant undertone which is anything but nice (it doesn't have to be in the acting but could be the situation of course). We should not actually like to be around these guys. The proto orcs must be kind of repulsive, but they shouldn't be the worst of Morgoth's underlings, and we should see a connection between their ways and Mairon. He is the lord of vampires after all.
Marielle
Well-Known Member
Agree we can't talk about it now, but it's something we could keep on the backburner for when Men show up. They could cross that line, and the elves could be horrified.
So no campfire? PJ films at least suggest that orcs eat their meat raw. That in and of itself could make them seem beastial...
I agree we need to make the proto-orcs horrifying in a way beyond ugliness/appearance/skin tone. One way we could do that is to twist them in such a way that, if any real creature did look like that, we could not help but assume they're in terrible pain. Elbows bending the wrong way, curved spines, etc.
I think we agree about this. I didn't mention a campfire but if we want one we could have one. As you say though, they should eat their meat raw. If that makes the fire pointless and we still want a fire, they could have set fire to something nearby, signaling that they have a destructive nature.
I don't think orcs need to go all the way into body-horror territory, and doesn't appear to be indicated in the stories. They're ugly and some horror you can do with the Uncanny Valley, making them almost elven-looking but with some things off. I think there's even research out there somewhere on what specific traits most set off the Uncanny Valley effect. There's probably a lot you can do with subtly wrong facial features and movements, in addition to the fangs. Somewhere between "zombie" and "creepy android/CGI".
Much of the horror, though, can come through their behavior.
Much of the horror, though, can come through their behavior.
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Brian Dimmick
Active Member
I like the idea of the pointless fire (I wouldn't even call it a campfire, as that implies it is set for some purpose in the camp--they just have an urge to burn/destroy things so they set a fire in thee trees at random and watch it burn). And I want to communicate the wrongness of orcs by things other than physical appearance. Making them ugly is fine, but we should not make ugliness by itself a shorthand for evil--that is simplistic and a bit too fairy-tale for my taste. Their conduct should be reprehensible from the start.
These are proto orcs, and they have been manipulated by Sauron only. We don't want to go too far with a physical transformation, especially if it's a detour that we won't see followed up on later. The true orcish look will come with Morgoth's (and Boldog's) involvement.
They've been maltreated and exposed to necromantic experiments, whatever that is. I suggest a change of skin tone and body mass, and loss of hair to some degree, leaving them grey and looking somewhat like mummies, or a bit like zombies as suggested earlier.
They should be traumatised and skittish and when they see Beleg they will be very afraid - perhaps because they don't want to remember who they could have been.
Good, so they have not chopped wood or even gathered fallen branches or anything like that. I suggest that they've simply set fire to a tree. That would catch Beleg's attention.
They've been maltreated and exposed to necromantic experiments, whatever that is. I suggest a change of skin tone and body mass, and loss of hair to some degree, leaving them grey and looking somewhat like mummies, or a bit like zombies as suggested earlier.
They should be traumatised and skittish and when they see Beleg they will be very afraid - perhaps because they don't want to remember who they could have been.
Good, so they have not chopped wood or even gathered fallen branches or anything like that. I suggest that they've simply set fire to a tree. That would catch Beleg's attention.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
How tall are we talking?
I don't think they will be a lot shorter, although they mught seem shorter because they stoop. By change in body mass I was just thinking that they should be skinny, basically.