Session 3.09 - S3 Ep 4: Khazad Ai Menu

If he’s there we have to explain later why he’s still alive so long after. If the Firebeards treat them roughly as a group he has some sympathy from the start just from being of that group. We don’t need to see him specifically
True. And I liked the idea suggested earlier (can't remember where!) of making Turin's betrayer "Mim son of Mim son of Mim"; it's a bit silly, but also identifies the descendant with the injustices inflicted up on the ancestor all the more. Plus, it sounds petty, so it fits.
 
True. And I liked the idea suggested earlier (can't remember where!) of making Turin's betrayer "Mim son of Mim son of Mim"; it's a bit silly, but also identifies the descendant with the injustices inflicted up on the ancestor all the more. Plus, it sounds petty, so it fits.


While I agree that Turin's Mîm is certainly a descendant of the S03 Mîm, I would tend to prefer leaving it vague to the viewer. Cast the same actor, and have him act ambivalent when Beleg "recognizes" him.
 
See I think this is problematic. Why create an unnecessary connection that’s also vague and hard to explain, which on top of things risks causing confusion. Let’s just present petty-dwarves now and then later have Turin meet one of them, and he’s called Mîm.
 
Considering that Khuzdul was given by Aule to the dwarves and therefore is in some sense sacred, I've long suspected that the language would change much less over the ages than spoken languages, though bastardized slang and mannish vocabulary surely would enter in eventually.
Confirmed by JRRT. The change of other languages, including Elvish, is likened to melting snow, while the change to Khuzdul is likened to the weathering of hard rock. Even in the Third Age the Seven Kindreds merely had mutually-intelligible dialects.

2) I don't have that much to say here, other than that I agree with Haakon that the dwarves should kick Mim out. I would not have his exile be "the first iniquity the elves inflicted upon the dwarves" but rather come from his own people. Why, though? Is he a weirdo outsider they're happy to see go, or are they assuming he'll gather up his stuff and move back to town? Is it his king who kicks him out to give Thingol the caverns, or is his presence there a surprise to the dwarrow workmen sent to prepare the halls for the elven king?
JRRT did say Petty-Dwarves are descendants of exiles kicked out of the Seven Kindreds for... unspecified reasons. Possibly their habit of sharing their true names with outsiders was one of those reasons.
 
See I think this is problematic. Why create an unnecessary connection that’s also vague and hard to explain, which on top of things risks causing confusion. Let’s just present petty-dwarves now and then later have Turin meet one of them, and he’s called Mîm.


I mean, if you can get the hosts off of the S03 Mîm, be my guest. If we don't it is going to have to be addressed unless we leave it intentionally vague.
 
So he is "petty" before he losing his home? It's a possibility. If he's already called "the petty one" by his peers, then it makes sense that his exiled children might claim that term almost as a badge of honor. They could be consumed in their grudges, a bit like how the Feanoreans get consumed by the Oath.

Our audience will perceive "petty" to be derogatory, so I think we should have that be the name given to them by others. I actually thought that "petty-dwarves" was the translation of the name given to them by the Sindar (noegyth nibin) rather than other dwarves, although it may make more sense the way we are telling the story to have the dwarves refer to them that way long before the elves meet them. But do we want to portray the petty-dwarves as sympathetic and misunderstood by the other dwarves (and elves), or do we want to show them as unfriendly and antisocial folk who got exiled for a reason and deserve their petty name? I think the audience should at least by able to sympathize with them when they are kicked out of their homes, so I lean toward the former.

Maybe this has been discussed before, but have we abandoned the idea that the elves hunted and killed the petty-dwarves without knowing what they were before they met the other dwarves?
 
3) How do the Sindar encounter the dwarves?
Another option (which can be combined with the one we've discussed) is to have Eöl be the first to encounter the dwarves. He could come to Thingol and tell him about the dwarves and want Nan Elmoth as a reward for finding allies, or Mablung et al could find the dwarves and are surprised to find that they can speak some Sindarin. This is because Eöl has already met them and they have learned from him.
 
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I just can't get by this "petty" thing and I don't know why.

Who are the real "petty" ones here: those whose ancestors made some transgression generations ago, or those who still insist on naming their descendants over the event? Hahahaha
 
Well maybe the petty-dwarves just keep doing it? They won’t lend you their hammer. They ask when you’re ever going to repay the debt from yesterday afternoon. They remind you constantly of the time a hundred years ago when you accidentally stepped on their toes in the dark.
 
Some thoughts on all 3 of the episode questions.

1) What do we want to show of dwarf culture? How homogeneous do we want the clans to be?


A) The 7 different tribes should have some cultural distinctiveness, as basically everyone on the forum seems to agree. I'm almost of the opposite thought as Marielle, however. I'm thinking that dwarves are individually stubborn and collectively resistant to change, as we saw with their language (Faelivrin). They should obstinately resist abandoning their initial cultural distinctiveness to the point of being jerks about it.

B) The Longbeards (Durin's folk) should have uniquely long beards. Perhaps it is traditional among them to cut or shave the beard of a dwarf if s/he is shamed or commits a crime.
i) Question: Do we want to stick with depicting female dwarves with beards, which is admittedly a central part of their making, at the risk of horribly confusing the audience?
ii) Mim should have no beard. This marks him as shamed in the eyes of the Longboards. More on this below.

C) The different families should have diverse architecture and greater diversity among armor and jewelry. The less purely functional something is, the more we can allow its artistic diversity to grow.
i) I imagine that we'll mostly see the Longbeards, given their prominent role in the story and their location in Beleriand.
ii) Maybe we should have a scene where the Longbeards host their "cousins from the east", at which point we can highlight the different styles of armor and hair/beards but not have the elves interact much with the other tribes.

D) All dwarves should originally be illiterate. They adopt systems of writing after encountering the Elves, and they refuse to use the newfangled Feanorean runes once they come over from Valinor. Thus, Dwarven art and architecture should include no inscriptions.

2) What is the relationship between Mim and the rest of the dwarves?


A) Mim is a biological dwarf. His distinction from other dwarves should be cultural. His works (and possibly his beard) are small, not his stature

B) Mim is an example of wandering dwarfs who are anti-social to the usual crafting, mining and building activities of dwarfs. As a result of this, we see them branded as petty by the other dwarfs, who find their lack of craftsmanship to be unnatural and an offense against Aule.

C) I love the idea, had by many, that the other Dwarves should be the ones to evict Mim, and I propose making the Longbeards do it. If Mim is unbearded, the associated shame, combined with his failure to "properly improve the caves like a good dwarf" allows the Longboards to justify evicting him from his cave. Basically, the Longbeards' argument is that the petty dwarves aren't really using the caves they're living in, and thus have no claim to them. I've deliberately set up a parallel to the situation of the US vis-a-vis the Native Americans, but we should let this parallel stand on its own without pointing toward it in dialogue.

C) I dislike the idea of "Mim the Deathless". The "once and future king" aspect is what marks Durin as unique. Spreading this out to Mim and possibly other dwarves renders Durin's uniqueness less culturally valuable. If the producers insist on Mim being the dwarf evicted from Menegroth, will the text permit making "Mim" an appellation rather than a given name? That is, can it be a term of derision applied by other dwarves and taken as a mark of outsider pride by Mim himself?
i) Perhaps it's this cultural identity that gets passed down among Mim's company, rather than a genetic heritage. Maybe it even becomes a honorary title. [The Mim. Curses gold twice a day, straight from the mines. :) ]


3) How do the Sindar encounter the dwarves?

A) No strong thoughts on this.

B) One possible idea is that Thingol's folk quickly figure out they need to make war on these unlovely things that come to be called Yrch. The Longbeards should already be at war with the Orcs, and the Elves discover the Dwarves having a pitched battle with the Orcs at some point during the early hostilities between Elves and Orcs.

C) To Elvish eyes, dwarves will also be very unlovely, and they should wonder whether the dwarves are also bad guys. Have the question asked, "Is the enemy of my Enemy my friend?"


Aside: Maybe we should limit the contact between the Elves and Dwarrow families other than the Longboards.
1) As far as I can tell, the racial enmity between Elf and Dwarf seems to be universal, and nobody argues about who killed whom. ;)
2) This universal hatred isn't especially Elvish. Thus, I'd argue that the Elves should not encounter other tribes of Dwarves until after the events of the First Age would make it easy for the Elves to paint all dwarves with the same brush and lead to the deep racial enmity that we see in the Third Age.
3) Nevertheless, the general consensus here seems to be that there are interactions between Elves and many Dwarrow tribes, so I've probably overlooked something.


Question for the Forum: Where are the names of the other dwarf families coming from? Everyone seems to know what these are and where they're coming from. I see them on the tolkiengateway wiki, but I don't remember them from the text.
 
Some thoughts on all 3 of the episode questions.

1) What do we want to show of dwarf culture? How homogeneous do we want the clans to be?


A) The 7 different tribes should have some cultural distinctiveness, as basically everyone on the forum seems to agree. I'm almost of the opposite thought as Marielle, however. I'm thinking that dwarves are individually stubborn and collectively resistant to change, as we saw with their language (Faelivrin). They should obstinately resist abandoning their initial cultural distinctiveness to the point of being jerks about it.

B) The Longbeards (Durin's folk) should have uniquely long beards. Perhaps it is traditional among them to cut or shave the beard of a dwarf if s/he is shamed or commits a crime.
i) Question: Do we want to stick with depicting female dwarves with beards, which is admittedly a central part of their making, at the risk of horribly confusing the audience?
ii) Mim should have no beard. This marks him as shamed in the eyes of the Longboards. More on this below.

C) The different families should have diverse architecture and greater diversity among armor and jewelry. The less purely functional something is, the more we can allow its artistic diversity to grow.
i) I imagine that we'll mostly see the Longbeards, given their prominent role in the story and their location in Beleriand.
ii) Maybe we should have a scene where the Longbeards host their "cousins from the east", at which point we can highlight the different styles of armor and hair/beards but not have the elves interact much with the other tribes.

D) All dwarves should originally be illiterate. They adopt systems of writing after encountering the Elves, and they refuse to use the newfangled Feanorean runes once they come over from Valinor. Thus, Dwarven art and architecture should include no inscriptions.

2) What is the relationship between Mim and the rest of the dwarves?


A) Mim is a biological dwarf. His distinction from other dwarves should be cultural. His works (and possibly his beard) are small, not his stature

B) Mim is an example of wandering dwarfs who are anti-social to the usual crafting, mining and building activities of dwarfs. As a result of this, we see them branded as petty by the other dwarfs, who find their lack of craftsmanship to be unnatural and an offense against Aule.

C) I love the idea, had by many, that the other Dwarves should be the ones to evict Mim, and I propose making the Longbeards do it. If Mim is unbearded, the associated shame, combined with his failure to "properly improve the caves like a good dwarf" allows the Longboards to justify evicting him from his cave. Basically, the Longbeards' argument is that the petty dwarves aren't really using the caves they're living in, and thus have no claim to them. I've deliberately set up a parallel to the situation of the US vis-a-vis the Native Americans, but we should let this parallel stand on its own without pointing toward it in dialogue.

C) I dislike the idea of "Mim the Deathless". The "once and future king" aspect is what marks Durin as unique. Spreading this out to Mim and possibly other dwarves renders Durin's uniqueness less culturally valuable. If the producers insist on Mim being the dwarf evicted from Menegroth, will the text permit making "Mim" an appellation rather than a given name? That is, can it be a term of derision applied by other dwarves and taken as a mark of outsider pride by Mim himself?
i) Perhaps it's this cultural identity that gets passed down among Mim's company, rather than a genetic heritage. Maybe it even becomes a honorary title. [The Mim. Curses gold twice a day, straight from the mines. :) ]


3) How do the Sindar encounter the dwarves?

A) No strong thoughts on this.

B) One possible idea is that Thingol's folk quickly figure out they need to make war on these unlovely things that come to be called Yrch. The Longbeards should already be at war with the Orcs, and the Elves discover the Dwarves having a pitched battle with the Orcs at some point during the early hostilities between Elves and Orcs.

C) To Elvish eyes, dwarves will also be very unlovely, and they should wonder whether the dwarves are also bad guys. Have the question asked, "Is the enemy of my Enemy my friend?"


Aside: Maybe we should limit the contact between the Elves and Dwarrow families other than the Longboards.
1) As far as I can tell, the racial enmity between Elf and Dwarf seems to be universal, and nobody argues about who killed whom. ;)
2) This universal hatred isn't especially Elvish. Thus, I'd argue that the Elves should not encounter other tribes of Dwarves until after the events of the First Age would make it easy for the Elves to paint all dwarves with the same brush and lead to the deep racial enmity that we see in the Third Age.
3) Nevertheless, the general consensus here seems to be that there are interactions between Elves and many Dwarrow tribes, so I've probably overlooked something.


Question for the Forum: Where are the names of the other dwarf families coming from? Everyone seems to know what these are and where they're coming from. I see them on the tolkiengateway wiki, but I don't remember them from the text.
Some really interesting thoughts! But we won’t see Longbeards now. Just the Firebeards and the Broadbeams of Ered Luin.
 
Wasn't there a quote that dwarves would rather die of shame than have their beards shorn? If so i doubt that any dwarf would shave another dearfs beard, even if he is cast out of his clan, and even more doubt that a cast out clan would willingly keep the shorn look and identify as outcast.

In my personal headcanon the petty dwarves are what happened after tolkien considered that his dwarves are not in fact an evil race. The evil dwarves that remained became the petty dwarves and outcasts... So to some degree the evil tales, the early tales about evil dwarves who fought for melkor, who sided with orcs
elves and men at cuivienen and palisor , these tales are true - only that these traitorous dwarves were later outcast by their own clans and became the petty dwarves. But that's just me.

About culture... I don't know. I've shared a few ideas about how to distiguish firebeards, broadbeamd and petty dwarves in the dwarves thread...

To me i always thought of the firebeards as a more " celtic" clan, more aggressive and warlike and the broadbeams as a more " finnish" clan, more silent, dark and into mystery or magic - to distinguish both from the more germanic or norse longbeards - also in terms of clothes and bearing.
 
D) All dwarves should originally be illiterate. They adopt systems of writing after encountering the Elves, and they refuse to use the newfangled Feanorean runes once they come over from Valinor. Thus, Dwarven art and architecture should include no inscriptions.

I don't think dwarves need a sophisticated writing system before contact with the elves. But if they are engaged in extensive trade among themselves they should have a system for keeping accounts and marking goods as belonging to or originating from somewhere. Some kind of simple way to write numbers, and a way to mark, say, the rune or symbol of Belegost on goods. This seems to be how early human writing systems developed--systems for counting and accounting for goods that only later came to be used for more abstract concepts and literary ends. This could also be one reason the dwarves don't adopt elvish script--they already have the primitive beginnings of a script of their own (pride would be the other, and probably bigger, reason).

How and whether we show this is a separate question.

A) The 7 different tribes should have some cultural distinctiveness, as basically everyone on the forum seems to agree. I'm almost of the opposite thought as Marielle, however. I'm thinking that dwarves are individually stubborn and collectively resistant to change, as we saw with their language (Faelivrin). They should obstinately resist abandoning their initial cultural distinctiveness to the point of being jerks about it.

All dwarves do share a basic cultural identity, and they will protect the key parts of that identity quite stubbornly. Language is part of that. But they are mortal, so other things, like their decorative arts, might change more quickly than those of elves. ANd living in geographically distinct communities will lead to more distinctiveness. I would show an explicit (usually friendly) rivalry between the different dwarf groups in celebrating their customs and competing to show their strength and skill in craftsmanship (Nogrod and Belegost could square off in a hammer throwing competition...). But when faced with a common foe they can easily unite in common purpose.
 
Wasn't there a quote that dwarves would rather die of shame than have their beards shorn? If so i doubt that any dwarf would shave another dearfs beard, even if he is cast out of his clan, and even more doubt that a cast out clan would willingly keep the shorn look and identify as outcast.

I remember this quote as well, but I don't recall the context. Does it apply only to the Longbeards from LotR and The Hobbit or of all Tolkien's dwarfs? I thought having different views on the proper length of beards might make an interesting way to demonstrate cultural distinctiveness between groups.

My idea was that the Longbeards might traditionally shave beards of criminals etc. and that the shaven Dwarf would then have to re-grow his/her beard. Assuming that not all Dwarves adopt this practice, the Longbeards might then view the shorter beards of other Dwarves as shameful. If the text doesn't allow this interpretation or if everyone dislikes the idea, I'll certainly concede the point.

This could also be one reason the dwarves don't adopt elvish script--they already have the primitive beginnings of a script of their own (pride would be the other, and probably bigger, reason).

I think the Dwarves use Daeron's runes—which are also Elvish—rather than Feanorean runes. Certainly Daeron's runes are used to write the inscription on Balin's tomb, and Gandalf remarks that they were used in Moria "of old". The geometric structures with sharp lines are very good for inscribing in stone, which would appeal to the Dwarves with their love of stone construction.
 
Yes, the dwarves adopt Daeron's runes (cirth), but don't use Feanor 's script (tengwar ).

The Angerthas Moria and Angerthas Erebor modes were, of course, developed by the dwarves.
 
So it seems that we’re thinking the dwarves have more than one reason to dislike the petty-dwarves.

They are continually irritating, habitually bringing up small grievances and being particularly stingy.

They could keep their beards shorn? Perhaps they also shave their heads?

I’d also like to add a mystical element. Something along the lines of them being known for ‘bringing bad luck’.
 
They could wear their beards shorter than other houses ( amd notably the longbeards), but completely shorn? That seems so undwarvish to me that i can't even believe the petty dwarves would do it willingly.

"Khim, khim, khim!" The old dwarf wailed, tearing at his beard...
 
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