Session 3.09 - S3 Ep 4: Khazad Ai Menu
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
Whether or not we keep the story that the Petty-Dwarves ambushed and attacked lone Sindar for no apparent reason, resulting in the Sindar mistaking them for maneating animals and hunting them, I do think that story is indicative of what these people are like. Oh, immigrants. Let's murder them! With no warning or attempt to explain our grievances!
I do believe that, with the idea that Dwarves do not reveal their true personal names to outsiders, that it has to be assumed that Azaghal is a title instead of a personal name. Could it be simply the Khuzdul word for King or Father? At http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/khuzdul.htm neither meaning has an attested Khuzdul word, although uzbad is 'Lord'.
It's confusing to Elves and Mortals, too. So yes, keep it!
The Longbeards live in the Misty Mountains. The Broadbeams and Firebeards are the Blue Mountains Dwarves.
They actually did have their own ideographical writing system before they learned Elvish writing systems. They used it only for Khuzdul, so they kept it secret, and decided that Daeron's cirth are more useful for anything that outsiders might see. By the time they saw Feanorian tengwar I guess they'd just gotten used to cirth and preferred them, although we do see Ori and Thorin, for example, use tengwar in the Third Age.
I agree completely. The Seven Kindreds each have a Father who is supposed to be reborn in his descendants, or something like that. But the Petty-Dwarves aren't a Kindred with a Father made by Aule. Mim wasn't the Father, he was just the father of the last family of his people. And none of his sons was named Mim.
I do believe that, with the idea that Dwarves do not reveal their true personal names to outsiders, that it has to be assumed that Azaghal is a title instead of a personal name. Could it be simply the Khuzdul word for King or Father? At http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/khuzdul.htm neither meaning has an attested Khuzdul word, although uzbad is 'Lord'.
They meet the Dwarves before the Orcs, but they are probably wary and curious at first. After all, there were monsters at Kuivienen, and probably nobody got a good look at them in the dark... But they quickly figure out that trade and alliance is super useful to both.
This is not true. The Eldar (mostly the Sindar and Nandor) and the Dwarves of Nogrod became enemies only because the Dwarves murdered Thingol and sacked Doriath. Before then they were allies. People like Celeborn and Thranduil got racist about it and decided to mistreat the Dwarves of Belegost and the Longbeards, who had nothing whatsoever to do with that war. The Noldor and Longbeards became very great friends and allies, until Sauron destroyed Eregion and the Balrog drove the Longbeards from Khazad-Dum. The Avari and the other Kindreds had their own relationships based on whatever history they had.
"Of Dwarves and Men" in Peoples of Middle-earth, vol 12 of The History of Middle-earth. It was written 1969 or later. The Seven Kindreds are Broadbeams and Firebeards (Blue Mountains), Longbeards (Gundabad and Misty Mountains), Ironfists and Stiffbeards (further east), and Blacklocks and Stonefoots (really really far east).
Last edited:
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
The dwarves probably wrote in some sort of glyphs, symbols or signs... Not letters- before adapting daeron's runes.
If ataghal, telchar and gamil zirak were nicknames... So may have been mim, ibun and khim. It's not said that these were true names... Just a theory.
Uzbad means lord or king... If we don't want to use the mame durin, we should call him uzbad instead.
If ataghal, telchar and gamil zirak were nicknames... So may have been mim, ibun and khim. It's not said that these were true names... Just a theory.
Uzbad means lord or king... If we don't want to use the mame durin, we should call him uzbad instead.
ForthDauntless3
Member
Thanks for correcting me. I was remembering at some point hearing Prof. Olsen suggest that Thorin's ancestors had been involved in the death of Thingol and the sack of Doriath, but now that I'm on the spot, I can't run down the text he might have been referring to, assuming that I am indeed recalling correctly. Does anyone else remember hearing this, or did my brain just make it up out of whole cloth?
If Prof. Olsen really did make this comment, and if someone with a better memory can recall the source, would it be a viable idea to consider for future seasons?
Sorry, I was too busy making a Monty Python joke to be specific. Mea culpa. I intended to refer to the enmity we see during the Third Age at the Council of Elrond or between Thranduil and Thorin's company. It struck me that this hatred was deep and instinctual both on the part of the Dwarves—which feels natural—and on the part of the Elves, which doesn't. I'd also neglected to consider the positive relationship between Khazad-Dum and Eregion. Actually, that relationship is particularly surprising given the move of the Dwarves from Nogrod to Moria after the War of Wrath. There would have to be some tension there, and I wonder if we might make some hay out of that when the Second Age comes around in about 25 years. ;-)
Marielle
Well-Known Member
A) The 7 different tribes should have some cultural distinctiveness, as basically everyone on the forum seems to agree. I'm almost of the opposite thought as Marielle, however. I'm thinking that dwarves are individually stubborn and collectively resistant to change, as we saw with their language (Faelivrin). They should obstinately resist abandoning their initial cultural distinctiveness to the point of being jerks about it...
...
i) Perhaps it's this cultural identity that gets passed down among Mim's company, rather than a genetic heritage. Maybe it even becomes a honorary title. [The Mim. Curses gold twice a day, straight from the mines.
Some great stuff! But I'm not sure where you're "the opposite" of me: "I suspect the mores, attitudes, and mindsets of dwarves across Arda are probably rather similar, with the exception perhaps of the petty dwarves, but that their fashion and architecture could vary quite largely*, if we wanted." Sounds like we're on the same page here, unless I'm missing something.
(*Yes, I know the word I was looking for was "greatly".)
I rather like the idea of Mim being a title, if not eventually, than by the time Turin meets him. I, too, dislike the "Mim the Deathless" idea, and had been leaning towards the idea of "Mim son of Mim son of Mim", but I think I prefer this.
I mean, to be honest, the whole idea of introducing Mîm at this point wasn't really thought through. It was an idea that someone (maybe it was me, I can't recall) tossed out during a session during a typical 'what else?' moment. I don't think the execs will fight in trenches for it.
It seems like an odd thing to say. In The Hobbit Thorin's people are specifically not related to the perpetrators of the (only-vaguely-alluded-to) sack of Doriath.
Oops, I didn't get your joke. Sorry.
One would think that after 6000 years people would get over it... but we are talking about Elves here. Celeborn and probably Thranduil were survivors of the sack of Doriath. So yes, by all means make hay in the Second Age!
Well, the survivors of Nargothrond did end up in Doriath*, so some of them got slaughtered by Dwarves. But yes, mostly it was the Sindar and Nandor.
*Which was probably interesting since they included Celebrimbor and other Feanorian survivors of Himlad...
So, basically, my take on this episode goes something like this:
We're beginning the episode with Thingol and his court meeting Eöl in Nan Elmoth and Eöl wanting it for himself. Thingol says no and Eöl responds with badly repressed anger that Thingol doesn't own Beleriand and that others have come. (This could be preceded by an orc vs. Sindar skrimish)
Then we go to Mairon and Thuringwethil finding Shelob and lots of other spiders in the valley north of Neldoreth. They make some kind of deal. (This could be split in two parts for dramatic effect)
Next, we show Eöl bringing Thingol (et al) to a meeting with Dwarves. Three things are made clear: Both Dwarves and Sindar are troubled by orcs and fell beasts like monstrous wolves. The Dwarves will help Thingol to make weapons and armour. The Dwarves live in caves, which Thingol finds interesting.
The Petty-Dwarf thing (Mîm or no Mîm) and Menegroth is in the next episode, according to the official outline. And I do think it would be to move on too fast to include it in this episode. If we really want to put emphasis on the relationship between Dwarves and Petty-Dwarves, we can see the Dwarves evict some PD's before the meeting with Thingol.
EDIT: I suggest we see the Firebeards meeting Thingol, and the Broadbeams as passive observers. This should reflect their overall attitude towards Elves. I suggest that they are distinguishable visually, and that they live seperately in Belegost (Firebeards) and Nogrod, to avoid making things too complicated. Both houses should have negative attitude towards Petty-Dwarves, though.
We're beginning the episode with Thingol and his court meeting Eöl in Nan Elmoth and Eöl wanting it for himself. Thingol says no and Eöl responds with badly repressed anger that Thingol doesn't own Beleriand and that others have come. (This could be preceded by an orc vs. Sindar skrimish)
Then we go to Mairon and Thuringwethil finding Shelob and lots of other spiders in the valley north of Neldoreth. They make some kind of deal. (This could be split in two parts for dramatic effect)
Next, we show Eöl bringing Thingol (et al) to a meeting with Dwarves. Three things are made clear: Both Dwarves and Sindar are troubled by orcs and fell beasts like monstrous wolves. The Dwarves will help Thingol to make weapons and armour. The Dwarves live in caves, which Thingol finds interesting.
The Petty-Dwarf thing (Mîm or no Mîm) and Menegroth is in the next episode, according to the official outline. And I do think it would be to move on too fast to include it in this episode. If we really want to put emphasis on the relationship between Dwarves and Petty-Dwarves, we can see the Dwarves evict some PD's before the meeting with Thingol.
EDIT: I suggest we see the Firebeards meeting Thingol, and the Broadbeams as passive observers. This should reflect their overall attitude towards Elves. I suggest that they are distinguishable visually, and that they live seperately in Belegost (Firebeards) and Nogrod, to avoid making things too complicated. Both houses should have negative attitude towards Petty-Dwarves, though.
Last edited:
One thing that we should meditate on a bit is that the Firebeards and Broadbeams awoke in Mount Dolmed. It seems judging by the PubSil text that they have expanded eastward before exiting into Beleriand (in the text they speak of the kin of Thingol being afraid of fell beasts etc, which indicates that they know more about the lands to the East of the Blue Mountains than they know about Beleriand). The importance of the fact that this is their place of origin is also that Aulë must have paired them intentionally for a reason. Their differences, although easy to spot as we've discussed, should be of a certain kind. The differences should not be causing conflicts between them, but should perhaps be complementary. I don't know in what way, but let's say the Broadbeams are the best weapon smiths but the Firebeards are better inventors and architects, just as an example. There must be a reason for the confusion about whether or not they live seperately in Belegost and Nogrod or if they mingle. One reason could be that the Elves really don't care, or tend to forget at least. Another is that they don't want to tell anyone how they live; they're too secretive. They could also cooperate smoothly so that each Dwarf knows just what to do and that this system involves both Houses a lot of the time, but in a way that's not necessarily entirely transparent to outsiders. In the work on Menegroth for example, perhaps most of the planning and labour is preformed by the Firebeards, but suddenly a bunch of Broadbeams appear and do some mosaic work on the walls.
Last edited:
I used the ‘of Dwarves and Men’ in The Peoples of Middle-earth (but also used some resources online). In the ‘of Dwarves..’ it does say that they awoke in the northern part of Ered Luin but also that they (and all Dwarves) were ‘loth to migrate’ and build mansions far from their original dwellings except under great pressure such as the ruin of Beleriand. Mount Dolmed is more or less in the middle of the Ered Luin mountain range so it could be argued that it’s in the north. I realise this is a stretch but a few online resources suggest Mt D is their place of origin so I thought, maybe they know more than I do? But perhaps you know even more so what’s your source of information?
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
No i do not know it by fact. I once took part in a discussion about the awakening places of the seven houses and somebody in that discussion mentioned that the four places would have been all in one line... So the ered luin awakening place would have been in the north on the same longitude as gudabad ... And he brought arvedui's hiding place into connection as it would have been in the same region.
No facts, just edicated guessing...
No facts, just edicated guessing...
They did have references but I must confess I didn’t check all of them. (This was the Tolkien Gateway perhaps?)
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
Yes tolkien gateway is the source...
But the article on tg also does discuss the position of mt dolmed... Toökien seems to have changed his ideas about the dwarf coties and dolmed throughout his work... In some versuons it's on the longitude of the gulf of lune, in others it's further north close to arvedui's hiding place. I do not know which version to consider the final one or which one to follow... Though personally i also would place dolmed and the dwarf cities on rhe gulf of lune and the place of awakening further north on the longitude of gundabad... But rhat's not really backed up by any quote.
I do not think this is really touched by the line about the dwarves being loatje to wander... Moria is pretty south of gundabad and the mines in dunland, ered mithrin, erebor and iron hills are too...
I think 300 miles north or south wirhin the ered luin mt range wouldn't have been much of an issue.
But the article on tg also does discuss the position of mt dolmed... Toökien seems to have changed his ideas about the dwarf coties and dolmed throughout his work... In some versuons it's on the longitude of the gulf of lune, in others it's further north close to arvedui's hiding place. I do not know which version to consider the final one or which one to follow... Though personally i also would place dolmed and the dwarf cities on rhe gulf of lune and the place of awakening further north on the longitude of gundabad... But rhat's not really backed up by any quote.
I do not think this is really touched by the line about the dwarves being loatje to wander... Moria is pretty south of gundabad and the mines in dunland, ered mithrin, erebor and iron hills are too...
I think 300 miles north or south wirhin the ered luin mt range wouldn't have been much of an issue.