Session 3.10 - S 3 Ep 5: Menegroth

Yeah there's a world of difference between "let us take up these plundered weapons and make more just like them" and "these creatures are hitting us with sharp metal things - we probably need equivalent sharp metal things of our own to deal with them".
 
Ok, to weigh in on this. Flint and obsidian arrowheads don't penetrate metal armor because they are too brittle. They would shatter before they would pierce. And those that do slip in between metal scales or rings would be reduced significantly in effectiveness by a gambeson underneath. Therefore, if we do not give the Sindar metal weapons (which is what I had imagined), we would see shattering arrowheads.

The point of having Beleg bring back an Orcish blade is not so much for reverse engineering purposes, as it is to show what they are up against.

To be honest, axes are better at penetrating armored targets, but a sword is more nimble, more defensive, and more versatile. It is important to note that despite the emphasis modern people put on the sword, it was generally considered a secondary weapon in most cases. The elves Sindar under Thingol who eventually defeat the orcs are likely armed with spears as a primary weapon.

The orcs Beleg runs into, however, could easily be carrying only their sidearm, being as they are essentially deserters.
 
But cutting damage can be very effective against scale or splint because the blade thrusted from below might go between the metal parts .

I have to point out that this is still a piercing attack, and not as likely to work in many cases as scholars once believed. Scales were typically attached to the to each other so that this was not a simple matter of skipping your sword point up over a row of scales and slipping it under the row above.

https://books.google.com/books?id=O...page&q=scale armor and upward thrusts&f=false
 
As to whether or not the orcs will have metal armor, it is worth pointing out that Sauron and Morgoth certainly know how to make steel. So even if orcs themselves might not be very advanced, they are being outfitted by a (former) Vala who wants an army capable of facing off against Valinor.

Of course, the orcs armies alone will be no match for elves once the battles start, but they probably should have decent gear, at least.
 
an army capable of facing off against Valinor.

Speaking of... Do we ever show plans (ultimately never used) for getting millions of orcs across the sea? Ship building (I think not), or scouting a path and hoarding resources for a march west across the Helcaraxe?
 
I'm not sure Morgoth ever intends to conquer Valinor. He's ultimately afraid of the Valar, and hopes he can 'get away with' ruling in Middle Earth while the Valar are across the Sea. He does, however, want to be prepared in the event that the Valar do cross the Sea to come after *him*. So...orc armies. Which never quite pan out, of course.
 
I don't see why the Sindar wouldn't have metal. If the Valar didn't introduce the idea of metalworking during the Great March, I don't see why the Sindar wouldn't figure it out themselves over the millennia. They are said to have "almost" equaled the Noldor of Valinor in knowledge, skill, and wisdom*. I don't see how that (specifically the skill and knowledge) fits with having a culture frozen in the stone age for thousands of years. Even with the extreme compression of the timeline (which I strongly oppose for the very good reasons outlined by others) the Sindar lived in Middle-earth for thousands of years. It's true that necessity is the mother of invention and plenty of Human cultures didn't invent metal smelting out of lack of need, but metal is a very useful invention for far more than weapons. Hunting knives, lightweight portable cooking pots, belt buckles, combs, jewelry... there are lots of non-warfare reasons to use metal.

Metal doesn't mean Beleg has the weapons on hand to kill orcs whether they wear scale armor or thick leather or cloth gambesons. (I'm thinking metal scales or lamellar). If he has a bow with him, maybe he only has fowling arrows on him. Megafauna are a thing, but one would hunt those with long-bladed spears and/or pit traps, not arrows.

*"Wisdom" or nole really means knowledge or "philosophy", not sound judgment! The Exiles... aren't known for that. :p


I wasn't aware Narsil was made by Telchar -- what book says this? In any case it appears to be named after the Sun and Moon, so it can't be made before them.

Beleg didn't wield a sword until Anglachel, and I don't imagine Mablung doing so, either.
 
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I think it's Two Towers? When Aragorn is surrendering his sword before entering the halls of Theoden King?
Yep, that's correct:

"In this elvish sheath dwells the Blade that was Broken and has been made again. Telchar first wrought it in the deeps of time. Death shall come to any man that draws Elendil's sword save Elendil's heir."

Telchar made Narsil, Angrist (Curufin's knife that Beren takes and uses to cut the silmaril from Morgoth's crown), and the dragon helm of Dor Lomin (whose chain of custody begins with Azaghal).

Season 3 is too early for Narsil, I agree, (we need the Sun and the Moon first), and it's also too early for dragons yet. So, I suggest we show Telchar making generic items as a young apprentice when we first meet him/her, and then Angrist later in Season 3, followed by Narsil at the beginning of Season 4, and lastly the Dragon-helm as his/her final work as an old dwarf a bit later in Season 4 when we first introduce Glaurung.



The decision was made in Season 2 to have no metal at Cuivienen, on the Journey, or in Beleriand - until the dwarves and Noldor arrive. While the Sindar will certainly make use of metal, it seems as though they get it from others rather than become skilled metal-workers themselves. Thingol's realm is wealthy, but the Sindar just don't seem that interested in such skills. I realize that might seem a bit unfair to them, or oversimplified, but it's more a visual choice than an attempt at accurately representing real-world cultural development.
 
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Ah, there it is. Thanks.

The Dragon-helm was made "soon" after Glaurung first appeared in 260, whatever "soon" means. Certainly it changed hands a few times before Hador became lord of Dor-lomin in the 4th century (and the genealogy of his house should be corrected, because the 1977 Silm doesn't have the genealogy the way JRRT wrote it, and consequently it has the Edain move to Dor-lomin in the wrong century).
 
The Dragon-helm certainly gets around, yes!

Telchar --> Azaghâl --> Maedhros --> Fingon --> Hador --> Galdor --> Húrin --> {some custodians} --> Túrin

Yes, Tolkien eventually added quite a few generations of Men to his story, which changed the later chronology significantly, and of course the chronology of the end of the First Age is *very* unclear!
 
But the later version was:

--> Hador --> Hathol --> Magor --> Galdor -->

With the lordship of Dor-lomin beginning 2 generations earlier than in the 1977 Silm.

As for the end of the First Age chronology, I think the best we can do is use the dates in the Tale of Years. But that's a discussion for another year or decade, I guess.
 
The Dragon-helm certainly gets around, yes!

Telchar --> Azaghâl --> Maedhros --> Fingon --> Hador --> Galdor --> Húrin --> {some custodians} --> Túrin

Yes, Tolkien eventually added quite a few generations of Men to his story, which changed the later chronology significantly, and of course the chronology of the end of the First Age is *very* unclear!
We never find out what happens to the dragon-helm after Turin, do we?
 
Nope.

In one version of the Narn, it's taken when the Land of Bow and Helm is conquered, and I imagine Morgoth gloated over it or something. This is the version that got the most finished narrative, so it got into The Children of Hurin.

JRRT changed that to say that Beleg recovered it from the Orc camp, and outlined how that happened and what Turin did with it subsequently. But after Turin's death it vanishes again. I imagine it was buried with him, although that would ruin the line (after Gurthang breaks) saying "Thus passed all he possessed."
 
Nope.

In one version of the Narn, it's taken when the Land of Bow and Helm is conquered, and I imagine Morgoth gloated over it or something. This is the version that got the most finished narrative, so it got into The Children of Hurin.

JRRT changed that to say that Beleg recovered it from the Orc camp, and outlined how that happened and what Turin did with it subsequently. But after Turin's death it vanishes again. I imagine it was buried with him, although that would ruin the line (after Gurthang breaks) saying "Thus passed all he possessed."
I presume he abandoned it in Nargothrond.
 
Not in the Narn outlines; in the version where he still had it at Tumhalad, he brought it (presumably hidden) all the way to Brethil, and possibly wore it while fighting the Dragon.

The decision was made in Season 2 to have no metal at Cuivienen, on the Journey, or in Beleriand - until the dwarves and Noldor arrive. While the Sindar will certainly make use of metal, it seems as though they get it from others rather than become skilled metal-workers themselves. Thingol's realm is wealthy, but the Sindar just don't seem that interested in such skills. I realize that might seem a bit unfair to them, or oversimplified, but it's more a visual choice than an attempt at accurately representing real-world cultural development.
But... then how do the Eldar all have cognate words for several metals, and for swords?

I realize that the Etymologies also give common words for Sun, Moon, and book, but still, it would be better to preserve the linguistic design when it at all makes sense. This is Tolkien!
 
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The three Ambassadors visit Valinor (where there are all sorts of things that don't exist in Middle Earth), and tell their people about them. So, cognate words are possible.
 
Nah! I do think the sindar might possess some knowledge and interest in crafts and smithing, but nothing compared to the standard of the noldor and naugrim!

The naugrim would know types of steel comparable to modern tool and high endurance steel and possibly even better... After all they do have access to fantastic elements like mithril and meteoric metal and are able to create alloys we nowadays can only dream of.
 
And possibly the steel and smithcraft of angband also surpasses the sindar. After all it is melkor, sauron and other ainur, possibly from aules people, who run the smithies of angband and teach the orcs... So the orcs are by far superior equipped to the sindar in the early days, until the dwarves help them out with better weapons and materials.,
 
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