Session 3.10 - S 3 Ep 5: Menegroth
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
That's another way we could have gone. Either way, this is still early in the series. There is always a bit of weirdness early in a franchise, so I think we will survive this, learn from it, and get better going forward.
If the Orcs and Lindi all appear in Beleriand this episode, that is combining Eps 5 and 6 of the new, "approved" outline into one episode and skipping Episode 6 entirely. So it appears that that outline, written and/or approved by the "execs", has also been rejected and there is now NO outline or plan at all.
I really think that every season should be planned in outline before any single episode is planned. That will make the series actually flow together instead of jerking and starting and stopping and contradicting itself and screwing up the pacing like this. It's going to be just as hard to have Turin and Tuor who do their things simultaneously and if that timeline gets changed as well, it will cause major problems.
You've got that backwards. Nogrod sacked Doriath, Belegost didn't participate. Azaghâl is king of Belegost.
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No e6 isn’t rejected totally. First of all, the Lindi would only appear briefly at the end of e5, and any contact with Sindar would be in e6. Second of all, the Eastern Host under Boldog also only make small progress this episode. There is a suggested orc skirmish before that and the orcs have certainly appeared but that’s in the previous outline as well. These small changes might look bigger than they are because even in the outline you refer to there isn’t a lot happening and we will have to make more of the Green elves and the Ents and the communication between the elves (all three groups) and the dwarves.
Yes, thanks, I realised I made a mess of the Nogrod-Belegost situation.
Yes, thanks, I realised I made a mess of the Nogrod-Belegost situation.
Thank you, that is more comprehensible and much less bewildering.
Of the Dwarves, I still don't know which cities you assigned Broadbeams and Firebeards to.
I think the Dwarves with a B name live in the city with a B name.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I asked about this specifically, and the current answer seems to be that the two stories will be told in separate seasons. We have time, though, to work on this.
We have the Broadbeams in Belegost and the Firebeards in Nogrod. However, with the extensive trading and traveling of dwarves, it would certainly make sense if there were, say, a minority of Firebeards in Belegost and a minority of Broadbeams in Nogrod. To hint at a little mixing rather than two island kingdoms.
So to clearify again, this is my take of the episode:
- Orc skirmish.
- Findings in the orc skirmish leads to intensified making of weapons and armour. Thingol is inspired by Dwarves to move into caves. Caves by Esgaluin are known and suggested. Thingol approves and building starts.
- Celeborn (with entourage) meets Círdan while collecting pearls to pay Dwarves. Celeborn says Thingol wants everybody to move to Menegroth. Círdan says he and the Falathrim won't. Celeborn warns him of the risks.
- Sindar and Dwarves working in the caves of Menegroth. Development from initial scenes. The workers come across a group of Petty-Dwarves. This confuses the Sindar, but the Dwarves kick them out or tell the Elves to kick them out, saying they are intolerable and bring bad luck. (No individual Petty-Dwarf at this time, so no Mîm)
- Eöl and Dwarves? Making of his black swords. Telchar disapproving. Making of Aranruth?
- Thuringwethil reports to Sauron that a lot of Elves seem to have disappeared. Sauron is concerned that their enemies are about to build some kind of defense. He gives orders to Boldog to get ready to march. He will himself lead wolves and werewolves with Draugluin shortly after.
- Telchar brings Aranruth to Thingol. Dwarves are given pearls, and they love it.
- Sauron and Shelob. Deal/mutual understanding.
- The Eastern Orc Host exit Angband and move south, slowly marching out of Lothlann past Himring. At the crossing of Little Gelion they encounter a group straying elves fishing. They kill most of them, but one survivor manages to escape, and runs until she finds some of Thingol's soldiers (Mablung).
- A group of rather fierce, primitive looking Elves led by Denethor son of Lenwë cross into Beleriand over the Ered Luin.
My suggestion is that he gives away pearls, refuses to come and live in Menegroth (which isn't an order but an invitation) and gets ready for what might come.
I suggest two violent encounters with orcs. One, the initial skirmish. Two, the first time the Eastern Host meet elves. Boldog could kill one or two elves, but more importantly, he is the leader of a disciplined army, which feels unstoppable.
No, I don't think so.
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Does sauron adress shelob as " his cat"
I really don't think so - not at this point, since he already has a cat. Tevildo.
Marielle
Well-Known Member
And the dwarves? We could, in theory, just have them react to/provide things to react to for the elves, but I'd like to have their own story, if we can fit it in. At least the beginning of one. We have the petty dwarves, and possibly Telchar, for that.
Speaking of Telchar, I still like a line that I thought up during the session: when s/he sees the black swords, s/he could say, "thy blades have a fell voice"; it's true figuratively and literally!
Speaking of Telchar, I still like a line that I thought up during the session: when s/he sees the black swords, s/he could say, "thy blades have a fell voice"; it's true figuratively and literally!
Yeah there's definitely room for Dwarf story. I just didn't come up with one. And yes, that Telchar line is really good!
I'll edit my post a little.
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dietlbomb
Member
Some reactions to this session:
1. Elves of Doriath learning about swordcrafting. In this adaptation, we already have the elves of Doriath encountering orcs before they meet the dwarves. Why not have the elves recover swords from the orcs, and start working on their own swords based on those designs. When they encounter the dwarves, the dwarves will then impress the elves with their superior craftsmanship.
2. Narsil. I don't think it's necessary for Narsil to go with Elros to Numenor. All we really know is that it is Elendil's sword and that Telchar made it. Here are 2 alternative stories for it:
3. Broadbeams and Firebeards. When I think of someone beaming, I picture a big smile with wide eyes and a wide grin. Perhaps the Broadbeams should have Marty Feldman eyes. Maybe the Firebeards should also have reddish skin, like a sunburned Scotsman (not so much like Native Americans), so that even unimpressive beards give the impression of redness.
4. How the Balrog gets into Khazad-Dum. We shouldn't show this. The balrog should be a total surprise.
1. Elves of Doriath learning about swordcrafting. In this adaptation, we already have the elves of Doriath encountering orcs before they meet the dwarves. Why not have the elves recover swords from the orcs, and start working on their own swords based on those designs. When they encounter the dwarves, the dwarves will then impress the elves with their superior craftsmanship.
2. Narsil. I don't think it's necessary for Narsil to go with Elros to Numenor. All we really know is that it is Elendil's sword and that Telchar made it. Here are 2 alternative stories for it:
- Narsil goes to Elrond or Cirdan, who gives it to Elendil when he arrives in Middle Earth after the Drowning of Numenor.
- Narsil goes to Valinor after the War of Wrath, and the Elves of Tol Eressea give it to the Numenorean Faithful (maybe Amandil?) when the Numenorean Kings start to go bad.
3. Broadbeams and Firebeards. When I think of someone beaming, I picture a big smile with wide eyes and a wide grin. Perhaps the Broadbeams should have Marty Feldman eyes. Maybe the Firebeards should also have reddish skin, like a sunburned Scotsman (not so much like Native Americans), so that even unimpressive beards give the impression of redness.
4. How the Balrog gets into Khazad-Dum. We shouldn't show this. The balrog should be a total surprise.
Great ideas! I do like the link between 'hey, what is this strange new weapon made of metal?' and 'wow, dwarves are awesome craftsmen!' In our script outline for Episode 3, we do currently have Beleg picking up the fallen weapon of one of the orcs (and using it to kill some of the orcs who attacked him). We also broke his bow (don't worry, he'll get a new and better one soon!), so he would definitely bring that weapon back to Doriath.
As for Narsil - yes, there are a great many avenues it can take to wind up in Elendil's hand, and through Elros is only one option (and probably not the best). But as you point out, the real issue is figuring out who to give it to and how to make it 'special' in the First Age. If we give it to Celeborn...wouldn't Celeborn keep it for himself? Or at the very least take it over the mountains to the east. Beleg already has his famous bow, so I'd rather give it to Mablung. Mablung has the advantage of dying, so the sword can easily be picked up by someone in one of the sacks of Doriath. Getting it from there to Círdan or Gil-galad or even Elros shouldn't be difficult, and from there to Numenor.
I think that we should show a balrog escaping the ruin of Thangorodrim, but I agree that it should be a shock and surprise where he turns up. Also, the way the story works, it sounds like he got under that mountain without the dwarves above him even knowing about it....he was traveling via magma channels or something deep underground, tons of rock overhead. So, even if we were to show *that*, there should be no hint that the mountain in question is part of Khazad-dum.
As for Narsil - yes, there are a great many avenues it can take to wind up in Elendil's hand, and through Elros is only one option (and probably not the best). But as you point out, the real issue is figuring out who to give it to and how to make it 'special' in the First Age. If we give it to Celeborn...wouldn't Celeborn keep it for himself? Or at the very least take it over the mountains to the east. Beleg already has his famous bow, so I'd rather give it to Mablung. Mablung has the advantage of dying, so the sword can easily be picked up by someone in one of the sacks of Doriath. Getting it from there to Círdan or Gil-galad or even Elros shouldn't be difficult, and from there to Numenor.
I think that we should show a balrog escaping the ruin of Thangorodrim, but I agree that it should be a shock and surprise where he turns up. Also, the way the story works, it sounds like he got under that mountain without the dwarves above him even knowing about it....he was traveling via magma channels or something deep underground, tons of rock overhead. So, even if we were to show *that*, there should be no hint that the mountain in question is part of Khazad-dum.
dietlbomb
Member
I listen to these things on iTunes, so I'm always a bit behind with my comments.
I still disagree with the compresson of the timeline. There's no reason any break in the timeline can't be dealt with with the frame. That's why we have a frame. Let the Noldor plot continue to a cliffhanger with the Feanoreans at sea going to Middle Earth, and then use the frame to answer the question of what's been happening in Middle Earth all this time. This is how Tolkien handled the plot in The Two Towers: Book III showed the events from the perspective of Aragorn & company, and Book IV goes abruptly back in time to show the same timeline from Frodo's and Sam's perspective. There's no reason we can't do this in SilmFilm other than a stylistic preference for linearity (which I think is a weak reason, and which was already violated in Season 1). I understand we need to compromise to make a good television adaptation, but I just can't see how this particular compromise of the story is necessary or even beneficial.
One thought: if we want to do a season on the Adventures of Earendil, why not pad out a Beleriand Season with the Adventures of Beleg and Mablung?
Here's an idea for a radical restructuring of Seasons 2 and 3. For Season 2, instead of following the Noldor to Valinor and showing the events there, why not stay in Beleriand and show the events there during the peace, culminating with the orc wars and the near-doom of the Elves. Then Season 3 starts with the arrival of the Noldor in Valinor, giving us more time to establish the generations of Noldor characters. This season could culminate with the kinslaying (where we are currently planning on leaving the Noldor after episode 2 of Season 3). Then in Season 4 the timelines can be reconciled.
I know this is just wishful thinking. Maybe I'll do it that way when I write my imaginary Silmarillion adaptation.
I still disagree with the compresson of the timeline. There's no reason any break in the timeline can't be dealt with with the frame. That's why we have a frame. Let the Noldor plot continue to a cliffhanger with the Feanoreans at sea going to Middle Earth, and then use the frame to answer the question of what's been happening in Middle Earth all this time. This is how Tolkien handled the plot in The Two Towers: Book III showed the events from the perspective of Aragorn & company, and Book IV goes abruptly back in time to show the same timeline from Frodo's and Sam's perspective. There's no reason we can't do this in SilmFilm other than a stylistic preference for linearity (which I think is a weak reason, and which was already violated in Season 1). I understand we need to compromise to make a good television adaptation, but I just can't see how this particular compromise of the story is necessary or even beneficial.
One thought: if we want to do a season on the Adventures of Earendil, why not pad out a Beleriand Season with the Adventures of Beleg and Mablung?
Here's an idea for a radical restructuring of Seasons 2 and 3. For Season 2, instead of following the Noldor to Valinor and showing the events there, why not stay in Beleriand and show the events there during the peace, culminating with the orc wars and the near-doom of the Elves. Then Season 3 starts with the arrival of the Noldor in Valinor, giving us more time to establish the generations of Noldor characters. This season could culminate with the kinslaying (where we are currently planning on leaving the Noldor after episode 2 of Season 3). Then in Season 4 the timelines can be reconciled.
I know this is just wishful thinking. Maybe I'll do it that way when I write my imaginary Silmarillion adaptation.
dietlbomb
Member
Maybe we could have Galadriel recover it from Mablung, and give it to Elendil when he comes to Middle Earth.
I do like that restructuring idea, and see a lot of advantages to it. It has an 'overlapping' timeline, rather than a disjointed one, which is how we dealt with the Season 1 to Season 2 transition, and is fairly smooth, considering. The obvious tie-in between the events in both season would be the island ferry trips - we see them leaving Beleriand and arriving in Valinor, so we know where we are in the timeline. It also keeps the seasons more thematically together, rather than having a major tone shift about halfway through. One issue is that it does muddy the water with orcs. So far, we've had Sauron overseeing the production of 'fallen elves' - he's torturing them, breaking them, manipulating them, doing weird necromantic stuff to their fëar...but they're still not 'orcs' when he is done with them. We're waiting for Melkor to come back and put the finishing touches of his anger and hatred and corruption on them to make that transformation complete.
So, for the purposes of this project, showing orcs in Beleriand prior to the return of Morgoth would be a bit difficult.
(Obviously, there are other ways you can get orcs, and none of them satisfy *all* of the constraints and philosophical requirements of sentience and creation and evil and free will. But that is the one we went with.)
I don't think we're going to go back and redo anything at this point, but I do think it's good to acknowledge variations on 'this could have been better if...' as a lessons learned sort of thing.
So, for the purposes of this project, showing orcs in Beleriand prior to the return of Morgoth would be a bit difficult.
(Obviously, there are other ways you can get orcs, and none of them satisfy *all* of the constraints and philosophical requirements of sentience and creation and evil and free will. But that is the one we went with.)
I don't think we're going to go back and redo anything at this point, but I do think it's good to acknowledge variations on 'this could have been better if...' as a lessons learned sort of thing.
dietlbomb
Member
Sure we will. This is only the first draft! We'll start the second draft in 2033 after we wrap up the "Gimli and Legolas Build a Canoe" storyline.