Session 3.10 - S 3 Ep 5: Menegroth
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
dietlbomb
Member
Tolkien revised the Silmarillion a half dozen times and never even got to the end.
Brian Dimmick
Active Member
To match Tolkien's style, we should start over from the beginning now, in the middle of Season 3. We should then rerecord portions of the SilmFilm sessions with altered material, obliterating the original audio, and leave future generations to figure out what was actually in the first iteration of SilmFilm.
On a slightly more serious note, I like the idea of having the elves of Tol Eressea give Narsil to the Faithful Numenoreans as a gift (perhaps as a farewell gift when they decide to cease visiting Numenor). We will need Numenor stories since Tolkien doesn't give us a lot beyond outlines between Aldarion and Amandil.
The idea of making Season 2 about Middle Earth/Beleriand is also interesting, though it does have some challenges as MithLuin suggests. Also, it highlights the fact that we are abandoning the stories of the elves who leave the Great Journey early in ways that following the Valinor story first doesn't. The Avari will just get abandoned and never be heard from again,a nd Lenwe and his people will disappear, only to show up a number of episodes later with little said about their wanderings. (At least in the current structure by the time we return to Beleriand the audience will have mostly forgotten about these groups).
I still don't see the need to compress the timeline. Our Audience isn't going to perceive the passage of time in the story the same way we, who are very familiar with the published Silmarillion, will. No matter how we do it the vast amounts of time that pass before the rising of the sun will be hard to convey to our audience, and whether 1,000 or 10,000 years pass won't make much difference to the story. Likewise, if we are just rather vague about the passage of time I think we could leave the Beleriand storyline uncompressed and trust our audience to figure out what is going on or not to worry too much about it. But I recognize that battle has been lost.
I think I’ve written enough about the compressed timeline but let me just say that I did try to argue (in the session) that we could use the frame. I don’t think Corey noticed this comment though, or he didn’t think it changed the big picture of the issue. He wants a linear timeline, without exception.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
We will certainly have to use the frame, if only to grant some unity to what will surely be the least structurally sound episode of this season.
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
Also on the sword (I'm enjoying how much Narsil sticks out for so many of us)... Sort of collecting other people's ideas and adding some of my own...
I think Narsil could, accidentally almost, be a wonderful tool for us in the 2nd Age.
I love the idea that Narsil makes its way to Valinor after the War of Wrath. 1) It gives us an opportunity to show Aule a sample of his people's handicraft, to hold it in his hands. 2) Same for the Valinor Noldor. 3) It makes the history/lineage of the sword even cooler. 4) We will need to either abandon Valinor altogether or make up stories to tell - this is a fun made-up story.
I think Narsil could, accidentally almost, be a wonderful tool for us in the 2nd Age.
I love the idea that Narsil makes its way to Valinor after the War of Wrath. 1) It gives us an opportunity to show Aule a sample of his people's handicraft, to hold it in his hands. 2) Same for the Valinor Noldor. 3) It makes the history/lineage of the sword even cooler. 4) We will need to either abandon Valinor altogether or make up stories to tell - this is a fun made-up story.
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
Somebody who is " broad in the beam" is someone who has a belly... So i guess the broadbeams are a bit " strong built" and it doesn't refer to their eyes.
About the elves recoverung swords from rhe orcs... No! The books clearly say that rhe elves despise everithing orc- made...
They literall feel that their artefacts are no good, they have the air of evil about them, so the elves shy away from even touching them.
Besides it is clearly implied that the traditional weapons of the sindare are axe and bow. That doesn't mean they did use no blades at all - they certainly did! But i take it as a strong hint of the cultural impact the dwarves had on the early sindar at that time.
To thenatsil discussion i can't really relate... It all seems a bit far fetchet to me.
About the elves recoverung swords from rhe orcs... No! The books clearly say that rhe elves despise everithing orc- made...
They literall feel that their artefacts are no good, they have the air of evil about them, so the elves shy away from even touching them.
Besides it is clearly implied that the traditional weapons of the sindare are axe and bow. That doesn't mean they did use no blades at all - they certainly did! But i take it as a strong hint of the cultural impact the dwarves had on the early sindar at that time.
To thenatsil discussion i can't really relate... It all seems a bit far fetchet to me.
Marielle
Well-Known Member
Same! I actually never considered the sword's history in the First Age, ever! I do think we should heed Haerangil's warning and not make the blade's story to elaborate/important/ridiculous. Even if we give the sword to someone significant, we should let the audience forget the name for a while.
Agree. 100%. I can see dwarves or Eol inventing swords again, separately from Feanor (wouldn't be the only time in history an invention happens twice, independently), but taking them from orcs... well, maybe dwarves would, but I think we want swordcraft more advanced than that would allow among the dwarves.
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
Needle bodkins could pierce any type of armour, except perhaps 14th century plate. However it's the cloth armour worn beneath the metal armour that stops an arrow or hinders lethal wounds.
Question would be: do the elves have metal arrowheads at this point?
Question would be: do the elves have metal arrowheads at this point?
Last edited:
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
Problem is: arrows are piercing, blades cutting. Two different kinds of damage...
But cutting damage can be very effective against scale or splint because the blade thrusted from below might go between the metal parts . Mail is almost impossible to cut through by blades, but can be pierced by very pointed weapons.
I see no way the elves would have not been able to shoot the orcs if they used either broadhead or bodkin metal arrowheads. And footsoldiers don't wear full plate.
But cutting damage can be very effective against scale or splint because the blade thrusted from below might go between the metal parts . Mail is almost impossible to cut through by blades, but can be pierced by very pointed weapons.
I see no way the elves would have not been able to shoot the orcs if they used either broadhead or bodkin metal arrowheads. And footsoldiers don't wear full plate.
Keep in mind that this is (essentially) the first skirmish ever. The elves' bows and arrows are designed for hunting (and wild animals don't wear armor). So, either because the draw of the bow isn't strong enough, or because the arrowheads aren't strong enough, or because the armor is too strong....few of Beleg's shots are effective (he can still shoot someone in the eye).
We want to show armor *working*, because if it does not, it would seem kinda pointless to wear it, right? We are trying to give the Sindar motivation to join the arms race, to improve enough to face this foe.
These orcs should not have chainmaille - that is going to be invented by the dwarves. I'm not sure what style of armor they are wearing (boiled leather?), but I would like for it to work to at least prevent some arrows from being lethal.
The Sindar are not supposed to have metal (well, until this season). So, obsidian arrowheads, maybe?
We want to start with our simplest, most basic weapons and armor now. Everyone is going to develop new stuff over time, so we don't want to jump the gun and have it all already.
We want to show armor *working*, because if it does not, it would seem kinda pointless to wear it, right? We are trying to give the Sindar motivation to join the arms race, to improve enough to face this foe.
These orcs should not have chainmaille - that is going to be invented by the dwarves. I'm not sure what style of armor they are wearing (boiled leather?), but I would like for it to work to at least prevent some arrows from being lethal.
The Sindar are not supposed to have metal (well, until this season). So, obsidian arrowheads, maybe?
We want to start with our simplest, most basic weapons and armor now. Everyone is going to develop new stuff over time, so we don't want to jump the gun and have it all already.
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
Don't know... I guess flint or obsidian might pierce metal as well as iron or steel can. They are just less likely to get reused because of their brittleness.
I suggest these orcs already use high quality steel.
Another posdibility could be bronze arrowheads, or arrows that were too light?
I suggest these orcs already use high quality steel.
Another posdibility could be bronze arrowheads, or arrows that were too light?
I guess Beleg's bow would be strong enough to be effective when hunting pretty large animals (and especially since we have been talking megafauna) so I can definitely see the problem here... I can only see one solution, and that is that the orcs break Beleg's bow pretty early on. That could be possible if he's not intent on attacking from the start. Oh and that's also an important factor, come to think of it: Beleg is pretty close to the orcs and realises that the Sindar need better close combat weapons.
Marielle
Well-Known Member
I dunno... I still dislike the idea that the elves take anything -- weapons, means, techniques -- from the orcs. Unless we go with the idea of Beleg seeing the dwarves fighting the orcs, with swords, and have him go, "huh. nifty", I think this is one idea I'd put aside. Let swords come from the dwarves and Noldor, not the orcs.
I can support this view. The weapon smithing will only really begin after the arrival of the Dwarves anyway.
I certainly hear that concern - orcs are hardly 'creative' creatures (except in methods of torture), so we shouldn't allow them to inspire the elves.
We do, however, need to start an arms race, and get the elves interested in weapons. So...not copying, but certainly interested in what the dwarves have to offer.
I think we should give some thought to what type of gear Angband is going to outfit its orcs in, here at the beginning, but probably not in a plot-significant way.
We do, however, need to start an arms race, and get the elves interested in weapons. So...not copying, but certainly interested in what the dwarves have to offer.
I think we should give some thought to what type of gear Angband is going to outfit its orcs in, here at the beginning, but probably not in a plot-significant way.