Session 3.12 - S3 Ep 7: The Doom of Mandos

Wolf, vampire bat, I don’t know, do you have a preference? I could see both, but I imagine he keeps some kind of humanoid form, after all. Something unique. Something terrifying.
 
Faelivrin said:
Oh good. So then which things in the notes are suggestions, which are hypothetical non-suggestions, and which are final decisions? How do you tell the difference?
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Also, Richol bolded the part that was decided. That was a discussion of what all the options were, and the implications of making any of the choices, as well as clarifying the distinction between narrative needs and mythological messages. No one wanted to have the Sun and Moon from the beginning, as it would radically alter the mythology. Corey Olsen did not want to have the Sleep of Yavanna corresponding with elves or dwarves being awake, as a static ecosystem would be destroyed if anything needs food (and he didn't want to picture Beleriand covered in giant fungus rather than forests or elves hunting hibernating animals or something to try to represent this on camera). So, he decided that we could have the Sleep from the fall of the Lamps to the Awakening of the elves, and at that time, Varda would bless the stars and/or Yavanna would bless the plants so they could grow under magic!starlight. We aren't going to show a gradual lifting of the Sleep in specific places as the elves move around, so Melian's impact in Doriath will have to be something different. The main issue with this choice is that it lessens the impact of the rising of the moon and sun, so we would have to make sure that that was not only visually striking, but also showed new growth and life coming into bloom.
 
Haerangil said:
So sauron & draugluin. Good! Does sauron take wolf- form at this point?
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Why not throw in Tevildo and his cats too? It's an ambush, so big cats would fit perfectly for that. Throwing them in there too would perhaps even more strengthen the hopelessness of the elves in that situation.
 
I think we wanted to have Tevildo (and any associated cats) searching Doriath for the MIA Sindarin elves.
 
That’s right, Tevildo leads a cat squad looking for the place where the Sindar are hiding.
 
MithLuin said:
Right, we know what happens in the book for these scenes. It's a question of...does Finarfin just announce his decision, say goodbye to his kids, and walk away? Or does he attempt to persuade them to return with him? Obviously Galadriel is still gung-ho "Let's go to Middle Earth!" - but did the Kinslaying make her reconsider the idea of going *anywhere* that Fëanor leads? Does Finrod want to go back with his father, but instead continues on to lead those of their people who are remaining? Does anybody discuss anything?

The Doom of Mandos does change something - it explicitly puts the possibility of betrayal on the table. This no doubt increases the uneasiness between Fëanor's and Fingolfin's camps. Does it come to the point of accusations? Paranoia? We also have not seen any of the Noldor's reactions to the Kinslaying yet (except Fingolfin, who broke his sword). The Doom is an opportunity to dredge up some of that guilt and see how they are handling it.

There are several 'tiers' to the commitment of the Noldor to continue on to Middle Earth despite the words of Mandos.

First, we have those who swore the Oath (Fëanor and his sons). If they abandon their quest now, they are consigning themselves to Everlasting Darkness (the Void). Thus, Mandos' words are less scary than the threat they've already called down on themselves. They are continuing no matter what.

Next, we have all those who are guilty of bloodshed during the Kinslaying (Fingolfin, Fingon, probably Celebrimbor, etc.). These elves know they will face judgement if they return. Not just at the hands of the Valar, but they will also have to face the (surviving) Teleri, and perhaps even the elves they killed (when they return from Mandos). In other words, they might be scared by Mandos' words, but they don't want to be in Valinor anymore, either.

Third, we have those Noldor who are guiltless in the Kinslaying (they weren't even there until the aftermath), and just really want to go to Middle Earth (because of all the previous reasons). The question for these is...is that still enough incentive to continue on despite Mandos' dire warning and after witnessing the extent of Fëanor's fanaticism? For many of Finarfin's host, the answer is clearly 'no,' and they turn back. But some continue (such as his children).​

We know the result. What we don't yet know are the nuances of the decisions that are made. How do you choose between obeying the Valar and remaining loyal to family? How do you choose between holding onto a quest whose ideals you believe in, or abandoning a quest whose leader is showing some moral bankruptcy? As a leader, what is your responsibility towards your people - should you urge them to go on or urge them to turn back? What if they ignore you? That's the sort of stuff we have to work out.

If the Doom of Mandos changes *nothing*, and is merely an excuse for Finarfin to wimp out and abandon the quest...we're playing it wrong, or at the very least, missing an opportunity to do a *lot* more with that!
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Offhand, I thought Finrod should be reluctant to leave Valinor, he leaves an intended behind, does he not?
 
Finrod is at least quite regretful, and yet eager as well. He looks back in regret quite a lot, and carries a lot of actual treasure from Valinor.

Is it going to be made apparent what kind of cats Tevildo & company were corrupted from? I assume they are analogous to Gaurhoth, with Umaia spirits imprisoned in hideous animal bodies. I would suggest (corrupted) cave lions, both because I want them to be present and because they're bigger and scarier than lynxes.

MithLuin said:
Also, Richol bolded the part that was decided. That was a discussion of what all the options were, and the implications of making any of the choices, as well as clarifying the distinction between narrative needs and mythological messages.
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Thank you for clarifying!

The only part I would argue against, then, is moving Amon Ereb more than a quite short distance. It can't be very far north, for example. After the Fifth Battle the Feanorians use it as their strategic hideout/refuge from Morgoth, so putting it more than a little north of its canon position could make that nonsensical. Also they have to be able to flee from Morgoth's final assault all the way to the Isle of Balar, so they might require a relatively straight-shot through Taur-im-Duinath.
 
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Why is Amon Ereb moved at all?

Tevildo is some kind of big cat, as you suggest... we did describe him somewhere I believe - but I can only guess where.
 
Yeah, I think we settled on some variation on 'black panther' for Tevildo. But if he has followers, they could be...some other sort of cat-like creature.

Personally, I think it's fine to ignore the 'were' parts of werewolves (and were-cats?) in this adaptation. Wargs are evil wolves who are intelligent enough to talk. They don't need to have hands or any humanoid traits. Thuringwethil can obviously shape-shift into a bat, and she has very definitive vampire traits, as well as a humanoid form. So, I'm not suggesting we can't have shapeshifters/skinchangers in Tolkien's world - we clearly can! But...please let's not have any Harry Potter werewolves or people who turn into wolves on the full moon or anything? Let's just have...wolves. Evil talking clever wolves. Perhaps particularly large wolves, but just...wolves. (Or in Tevildo's case...just a cat.) Again, that's my personal preference and nothing definitive.


We can likely find a way to keep Amon Ereb where it is. The reason to move it would be panicking over there being practically *no* landmarks in East Beleriand, and trying to figure out why Boldog's army gets all the way down there, and how the dwarves and Sindar are going to be able to come (too late) to save the Green Elves.

So far, Boldog's army has only advanced to the Gap of Maglor, with some frustrated scouting into East Beleriand. And so...Amon Ereb isn't on the radar yet.
 
Well... Do you temember neverwnding story? The movie i mean...

Gmork would more or less be what i'd expect werewolves to be like.

Tevildo and his peers could be a littlte bit more demonic / humanoid in my mind, but not like humans wirh catheafs or simething equally silly.
 
I also think that a big black panther is the way to go. They can be pretty scary in appearance, so I don't think adding demonic features is needed. I'm sure a golden collar can be there as well. A sized-up housecat would probably look a bit ridiculous and not scary enough.
 
Hatleking said:
A sized-up housecat would probably look a bit ridiculous and not scary enough.
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Right! Also its proportions would not make it graceful or swift at that size.

I too would greatly prefer Tevildo and his cats, and the "werewolves", to be entirely non-humanoid. I don't recall anything in Tolkien's texts suggesting they aren't quadrupeds, or hinting at hands. I don't know why he picked the word "werewolf" other than the "extra-scary wolf" connotation.
 
Faelivrin said:
Richol, thank you for note-taking. Question: what of that is preliminary brain-storming and what is final decisions? I can't tell which is which, nor anything in-between.
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Oh my gosh, I'm sorry for such a late reply; I swear, half my life these days is a constant game of catch-up on All The Things...

Anyway,

I used to take better notes but these days I'll admit I've gotten progressively sloppier. Here's how I generally organize (or used to organize) things:

definite decisions or section headings in bold

*Conversation side-tracked to talk about x,y,z or a simple by-the-way line of thought brought up in discussion, or simply something that doesn't necessarily neatly flow with the bullet points so needs its own break (I pretty much use this symbol very loosely...)

** basically a by-the-way note that has some importance or is more significant than just a passing mention

Haakon said:
  • Marked like this
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Quite a reasonable guess, but that's really just my own laziness. I used to use dashes to indicate points brought up under topics of discussion but since they automatically got converted into bullets when pasting the text here, I eventually just left them like that and didn't bother to edit over with my prefered style of dashes...


I *think* that's the main gist of it. Hope that helps!


Edit: I just posted some notes in the episode 9 discussion a little while ago. Those are fairly light and also rather sloppy, so I apologize if some points are a bit misleading. I'll try to shape up again in subsequent posts. :)
 
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