Session 3.13 - S3Ep8: The Burning of the Ships

Earlier I thought you all were talking about what types of animals the Elves had before the ships were stolen, and of maybe a few dozen horses (at most) that weren't on the boats. Not vast herds of thousands of cattle that Fingolfin brought across the Ice for no reason. I said at the time that the vast, vast, vast majority of animals had to be taken away by ship. Now you appear to say Feanor stole none of them?

Is it wrong that I thought of problems that hadn't occurred to me earlier? I feel like nobody acknowledges my legitimate questions. Not even to say why you don't think it's not a problem. Please at least tell me why I'm wrong. If I'm wrong then I needn't worry about a plot hole.
 
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Of course you - and anyone - can think of possible problems as we go. I was just under the impression that we had agreed. But since that wasn’t the case, I can only say I’m sorry if I behaved in a way that made you feel uneasy, please go on. I’m not sure why you can’t see any animals in Fingolfin’s camp. If Fëanor took all of the animals, surely that would be noticed?
 
Faelivrin said:
I said at the time that the vast, vast, vast majority of animals had to be taken away by ship. Now you all appear to say Feanor stole none of them.
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I don’t think anyone says it’s a case of all or nothing. Fëanor definitely takes a lot of animals. But a number will be in Fingolfin’s camp, no?
 
I think we are in agreement that it's not vast herds of thousands of heads of cattle being moved across the Helcaraxë. Horses and cows are notoriously less good in harsh weather conditions than sheep or goats anyway, needing significantly more fodder to stay alive and typically not having the coats to preserve their body heat. Having them early in the journey does not mean they are still there later. The three part arc we developed for the Helcaraxë storyline involves the Noldor starving and miserable in the last part.

Executive decisions are very much a thing on this project. We can of course revisit them and raise points that we think are problematic, and the Execs are certainly willing to reconsider issues and come to a different decision. So, pointing out that Corey Olsen said the Noldor crossing the Helcaraxë would have animals is just an observation. I was under the impression that you were not listening to the podcasts, so I was merely bringing that conversation to your attention, in case you had not had the chance to listen to it. I think it's valuable to have the same starting point in a discussion, and for everyone to have access to the same data. We will no doubt be revisiting the Helcaraxë decisions over the next few sessions as we have now reached that part of the story.

Of course it's not unusual for the source material to be silent or ignore the topic of a supply line or support staff. We get the impression that the Rohirrim ride *all* of their horses into battle and that there is no camp with reserve horses anywhere during the battle or riderless horses anywhere. That's...not how cavalry works. But we really don't expect authors to get into those details, and don't expect our show to, either. Having some animals in the background, then showing fewer animals and more people wearing hides and the occasional beast falling down from starvation/cold, and finally no animals and starving people with just some dogs left should get the point across. No animals at all in the crossing makes the audience ask, 'What are these people eating? Where are they getting fuel?' so removing the animals entirely does not save us from the audience questioning things.

(I really don't have any time for this project right now, sorry. It's two days til Christmas and I'm moving in a week. I mostly log in to help Haakon delete spammers so that responsibility does not rest on him alone.)
 
MithLuin said:
Executive decisions are very much a thing on this project. We can of course revisit them and raise points that we think are problematic, and the Execs are certainly willing to reconsider issues and come to a different decision. So, pointing out that Corey Olsen said the Noldor crossing the Helcaraxë would have animals is just an observation. I was under the impression that you were not listening to the podcasts, so I was merely bringing that conversation to your attention, in case you had not had the chance to listen to it. I think it's valuable to have the same starting point in a discussion, and for everyone to have access to the same data.
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(Sorry, I'm posting in the morning while my family sleeps in, and I can try to find time to catch up a little on the podcasts/videos mostly when they aren't home. I have indeed not had a chance to catch up to Season 3. I mistook your posts for all that you had to say about the whole subject.)

MithLuin said:
I think we are in agreement that it's not vast herds of thousands of heads of cattle being moved across the Helcaraxë. Horses and cows are notoriously less good in harsh weather conditions than sheep or goats anyway, needing significantly more fodder to stay alive and typically not having the coats to preserve their body heat. Having them early in the journey does not mean they are still there later. The three part arc we developed for the Helcaraxë storyline involves the Noldor starving and miserable in the last part.
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This is closer to what I was thinking and I'm glad the starvation isn't being dropped, but still confused... do you mean the decision was that the start of the crossing is... not bad? You say the Executives didn't decide whether the Noldor start the crossing with only a few animals, or with big herds that die later?

If it's an Executive decision that they specifically start with herds, and only lose them later, then I think there needs to be an explanation why they ever had so many animals. Personally I can't think of one.

Haakon said:
I don’t think anyone says it’s a case of all or nothing. Fëanor definitely takes a lot of animals. But a number will be in Fingolfin’s camp, no?
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I can't imagine how Fingolfin could start the crossing with more than just a few beasts. I don't think he had herds in Araman. Technically his people legally owned herds... but the Feanorians held them since the Kinslaying. I think they must put all the animals, along with the heaviest baggage, on the ships to start with. It would be easier to walk in Araman without lugging heavy things or herding cattle, which like MithLuin said, couldn't handle it well. Fingolfin's host didn't expect Feanor to steal everything and leave them behind (though maybe they should have expected it after the Kinslaying). It's plausible that they considered horses useful enough on the Araman march to have some few among their host, but they very probably didn't have enough to go around for every Elf to ride, so they would probably transport the great majority of horses on the ships from the beginning, which Tolkien says they did (with the horses). Cattle are even less useful on a march through inhospitable country. Is there anything to graze on in Araman that had never known light? Whatever fodder they brought was probably also on the ships for easier transport... likewise whatever other beasts, birds, etc.

So it would be plausible to start the crossing with a small number of horses and beloved dogs/birds/other pets. Not whole herds, nor cows, even in Araman. Maybe a small number of pack animals (llamas or donkeys or something with no equivalant in Middle-earth, since they'll all die).

To me the answer to "What are they eating, where is the fuel?" is that they have very little food or fuel, not enough, from the very start, and mostly in the form of dried provisions (fruit, meat, nuts) and lembas. Tolkien said they were already miserable and cold in Araman before they started crossing. When they debate whether to cross the Ice at all, some can say "How can we do this with so little food and fire?" Ration out the food and wood/manure slowly... but it runs out.
 
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I'm sorry for double-posting. This popped into my head so I'm writing it before I forget my thoughts.

MithLuin said:
3) How is Finarfin received in Valinor upon his return?
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So, what we have to go on from Tolkien are:
  1. The Valar pardon them.
  2. Aule smiled on them no more.
  3. The Teleri are estranged.
  4. The name Noldor is so associated with grief and sorrow for them, that they rename themselves the Aulenildi ("friends of Aule"). Even though Aule isn't their especial patron anymore. (Are they trying to tell him they still love him and ask his forgiveness? Otherwise they could have renamed themselves Tirion-Elves or Tuna-Elves, whether or not they returned to Tirion.)
In the Lost Tales the other Elves only talk about the Noldoli behind closed doors or in whispers. I think this can be adapted in a way: the Teleri totally give them the cold shoulder (but how do Olwe, Earwen, and her brothers and mother act?). The Vanyar are less unfriendly, but also aloof and uncomfortable spending time with them. There's an 'odor' of rebellion and impiety that hangs over them. Nobody wants to talk or think about the horrors and wickedness that happened. It goes beyond awkwardness to poison social interaction whenever they show up. Maybe the other Elves don't entirely trust them.

The Valar (& major Maiar):
  • Manwe (and Varda?) must be the one(s) who decide to pardon them, so I think he/they reconcile with them.
  • Ulmo forgives them -- he doesn't even abandon the Exiles (Manwe also doesn't abandon them, but more subtly so).
  • Nienna forgives them, because she is the most compassionate and forgiving Vala. She's always willing to give even Melkor another chance to repent.
  • Osse, Uinen, and Tulkas hold a grudge. Of Tulkas, the 1977 Silm says "if Tulkas is slow to wrath he is slow also to forget."
  • Aule is somewhere in-between? No longer their special friend, but maybe just cool or aloof instead of an active grudge?
  • Mandos told them to go back to ask pardon, and they did it, and Manwe pardoned them. So... he's back to OK with them?? He was never warm to anyone to begin with.
  • others ???
(By the time of the War of Wrath, I think the Vanyar, Valar, and Finarfin's people are back on ordinary speaking terms, except it's possible Aule still doesn't "smile upon" them. The Teleri are still very upset at the Rebels who went on, but may have forgiven Finarfin's people who were all innocent. This won't matter until Earendil's voyage, though.)
 
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Faelivrin said:
I'm sorry for double-posting. This popped into my head so I'm writing it before I forget my thoughts.

So, what we have to go on from Tolkien are:
  1. The Valar pardon them.
  2. Aule smiled on them no more.
  3. The Teleri are estranged.
  4. The name Noldor is so associated with grief and sorrow for them, that they rename themselves the Aulenildi ("friends of Aule"). Even though Aule isn't their especial patron anymore. (Are they trying to tell him they still love him and ask his forgiveness? Otherwise they could have renamed themselves Tirion-Elves or Tuna-Elves, whether or not they returned to Tirion.)
In the Lost Tales the other Elves only talk about the Noldoli behind closed doors or in whispers. I think this can be adapted in a way: the Teleri totally give them the cold shoulder (but how do Olwe, Earwen, and her brothers and mother act?). The Vanyar are less unfriendly, but also aloof and uncomfortable spending time with them. There's an 'odor' of rebellion and impiety that hangs over them. Nobody wants to talk or think about the horrors and wickedness that happened. It goes beyond awkwardness to poison social interaction whenever they show up. Maybe the other Elves don't entirely trust them.

The Valar (& major Maiar):
  • Manwe (and Varda?) must be the one(s) who decide to pardon them, so I think he/they reconcile with them.
  • Ulmo forgives them -- he doesn't even abandon the Exiles (Manwe also doesn't abandon them, but more subtly so).
  • Nienna forgives them, because she is the most compassionate and forgiving Vala. She's always willing to give even Melkor another chance to repent.
  • Osse, Uinen, and Tulkas hold a grudge. Of Tulkas, the 1977 Silm says "if Tulkas is slow to wrath he is slow also to forget."
  • Aule is somewhere in-between? No longer their special friend, but maybe just cool or aloof instead of an active grudge?
  • Mandos told them to go back to ask pardon, and they did it, and Manwe pardoned them. So... he's back to OK with them?? He was never warm to anyone to begin with.
  • others ???
(By the time of the War of Wrath, I think the Vanyar, Valar, and Finarfin's people are back on ordinary speaking terms, except it's possible Aule still doesn't "smile upon" them. The Teleri are still very upset at the Rebels who went on, but may have forgiven Finarfin's people who were all innocent. This won't matter until Earendil's voyage, though.)
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There shouldn’t be much against the Teleri toward Finarfin’s people, since Earwen is kin to Olwe.
 
That's a mitigating factor, but after the Noldor slaughtered everyone in the Haven, they're probably not going to be particular in hating only those people directly responsible. It would be extremely weird if the Noldor (who were innocent) turned back, and the Teleri welcomed them saying, "No hard feelings!" Because even if they didn't participate, they *did* join in the rebellion, and they *did not* stop Fëanor. Just because they don't have actual blood on their hands doesn't make them guiltless. They're still complicit (in the eyes of the Teleri).
 
So i guess i just come in here, euhm.

1) Because Feanor is a very hot-tempered elf and he says "Let those who cursed my name, curse me still and whine their ways back to the cage of valar! Let the ships burn!, This could possibly be shown in the camp before his followers goes over on the boats, he accidently hears some elves Fingolfin and Finarfin followers, cursing his name and talking shit about him.

2) In books it is said that he sees the fire as do the servants of Morgoth (thats how they realise the Noldor is in Middle earth), but if we do not want this we could use the vision thing for the elves and for Morgoth simply spies.

4) Does he at this point? Currently he and his Falathrim and besieged in Brithombar and Eglarest, and the siege is only lifted when the Orcs there are sent up to reinforce Morgoths orcs against Feanors host, (But are ambushed by Celegorm and his followers).

5) Well the "Orcs and Watchers of Morgoth" sees the flames and so Morgoth sends out an army from Angband, not sure about his reactions he seems to be with his Balrog force behind and only fight Feanor when he comes near Angband. The more intresting thing would be how Morgoth reacts?.
 
Welcome to the Forums! Good to have you here!
Konrad S said:
4) Does he at this point? Currently he and his Falathrim and besieged in Brithombar and Eglarest, and the siege is only lifted when the Orcs there are sent up to reinforce Morgoths orcs against Feanors host, (But are ambushed by Celegorm and his followers).
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In our story, the Falathrim don’t defend themselves but retreat to their ships, so they are currently at sea, and can see the fires.
 
Thanks,

So all of the Falathrim does simply leave their Villages, Houses, Towns and two cities to get sacked and goes out on ships? Why was this chosen instead of what happens in the books? So the two armies that comes back from the siege in the books, now comes back from sacking the cities? When Celegorm ambush them.
 
The Falathrim don’t have much of a defence against the Host of Angband and their priorities are the ships and their own lives. The cities don’t have walls, the Falathrim aren’t the most martial of the Sindar and Sauron attacks with wolves and werewolves, so it’s the best way to conceive something that resembles a siege.
 
Exactly - siege implies standoff, and it seemed difficult to visualize these people holding back an army of wolves led by Sauron. Beleriand is a multi front operation, so to help out the viewers, we've made the villains' armies look different at each location. So, balrogs are only in the north (as Tolkien wrote), wolves attack the Falathrim, cats and then giant spiders in Doriath, and Boldog's orc army in East Beleriand.

I'm not all that sure how we'll handle Celegorm's ambush, to be honest. We have to coordinate who is where at the time.
 
It arose from the observation that Morgoth can't besiege the Havens because he has no navy. He can't cut the Falathrim from the sea, and once they've lost the land battle they'll retreat to their ships and escape.
 
I return to my earlier comment, that the Feanoreans leave without saying anything. This is indeed the case:
"For between the land of Aman that in the north curved eastward, and the east-shores of Endor (which is Middle-earth) that bore westward, there was a narrow strait, through which the chill waters of the Encircling Sea and the waves of Belegaer flowed together, and there were vast fogs and mists of deathly cold, and the sea-streams were filled with clashing hills of ice and the grinding of ice deep-sunken. Such was the Helcaraxë, and there none yet had dared to tread save the Valar only and Ungoliant

Therefore Fëanor halted and the Noldor debated what course they should now take. But they began to suffer anguish from the cold, and the clinging mists through which no gleam of star could pierce; and many repented of the road and began to murmur, especially those that followed Fingolfin, cursing Fëanor, and naming him as the cause of all the woes of the Eldar. But Fëanor, knowing all that was said, took counsel with his sons; and two courses only they saw to escape from Araman and come into Endor: by the straits or by ship. But the Helcaraxë they deemed impassable, whereas the ships were too few. Many had been lost upon their long journey, and there remained now not enough to bear across all the great host together; yet none were willing to abide upon the western coast while others were ferried first: already the fear of treachery was awake among the Noldor. Therefore it came into the hearts of Fëanor and his sons to seize all the ships and depart suddenly; for they had retained the mastery of the fleet since the battle of the Haven, and it was manned only by those who had fought there and were bound to Fëanor. And as though it came at his call, there sprang up a wind from the north-west, and Fëanor slipped away secretly with all whom he deemed true to him, and went aboard, and put out to sea, and left Fingolfin in Araman." - Silmarillion.

But as you notice, they discuss what to do and have this conversation having pressed north a while after the Doom of Mandos. I didn't notice this being discussed in the session.

The situation is that nobody wants to cross the Helcaraxë, but there are too few ships. Not that they have just heard the Doom.

I'm just wondering if this is a decision we've made?
 
So you mean there needs to be a longer period of time between the Doom and abandoning Fingolfin, during which they journey north and argue a bunch?

I'll agree with that.
 
Yes, that is what I mean. I guess I can live with a shorter period in between but that choice influences the way we portray Fëanor and his sons a lot.
 
I just mean that if Fëanor leaves without a previous argument, right after the Doom, it makes him look different than if there's a period where Fingolfin's people curse him.
 
Just for the record, when the seminar ended I was informed by the GoToMeeting client that I had a recording of this session "that need to be converted before anyone can view them" :eek:: could someone please confirm that I do not have the only copy, please? o_O
 
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