Session 3.14 - S3Ep9: Battle in Beleriand

I like Eöl with a black sword fighting along with the Dwarves!

Nicholas Palazzo said:
So, there will be resistance to the idea of giving Melkor flying henchmen, but I have a potential solution.

There has been, however, talk of two things that may help us tell this story.

1) Having Tilion throw up the Northern Lights to help the Noldor crossing the Helcaraxe.

2) Having ice demons or some such attacking the Noldor.

Suppose Tilion is preparing for his first takeoff, and is beset be some creatures at the edge of the world, and their combat creates the Northern Lights?
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We could make them shadow demons. Would work as well as ice demons in the far North, and would be logical when Tilion tries to bring light in different forms.
 
So Eol has a redeeming feature -- he actually fought against the Orcs, once in his life.

So what is the substance of Telchar's disapproval? Just 'cause she dislikes Eol (who wouldn't), or she thinks galvorn (the meteoric metal) is crap, or she senses the "fell spirit" or whatever it is in the sword and is disturbed by that? Or the decoration on it is ugly?

Nicholas Palazzo said:
Suppose Tilion is preparing for his first takeoff, and is beset be some creatures at the edge of the world, and their combat creates the Northern Lights?
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Great idea! So, flightless ice or shadow demons? Does Tilion defeat them so soundly that they can't do any more in the war? Or they might be exactly the sort of minor demons that have been talked about (I was thinking of Haakon's suggestion waay back to incorporate the Lost Tales "ice balrogs" as minor ice Umaiar).

What are the logistics of this attack, though? I always pictured Tilion and Arien launching from Valinor, or perhaps Taniquetil. And I thought they set on the western edge beyond Valinor, and rise on the eastern edge beyond the "lands of the sun".

Anyway, lunar eclipses can be a thing that only happens in the normal way, after the world becomes round. (Solar eclipses are all Tilion's fault, though.)


EDIT: I'm watching podcast S3Ep01. (Mostly it reminds me how much I hate this whole time compression thing.) But it was said that the false parley and capturing Maedhros should be Sauron's scheme. Yet, the Balrogs (presumably including Gothmog) are an essential part of carrying out that plan. So how can that "cooperation" between rivals be set up? Or is it Gothmog taking over Sauron's scheme? Or do we need to abandon the idea that Sauron came up with it at all?
 
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Faelivrin said:
So what is the substance of Telchar's disapproval? Just 'cause she dislikes Eol (who wouldn't), or she thinks galvorn (the meteoric metal) is crap, or she senses the "fell spirit" or whatever it is in the sword and is disturbed by that? Or the decoration on it is ugly?
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I think is the spirit of the blade. The dwarves pour out their heart into what they make, and I feel like Telchar would get a bead on what Melian sees in Anglachel later.
 
The other thing the podcast reminds me is that "Boldog" sounds a lot like "bulldog". It isn't as bad as "Elmo" but I'm thinking... he may need renaming. Would "Boldok" be OK? There are also some Orc names somewhere in the Lost Tales, I think.
 
Faelivrin said:
What are the logistics of this attack, though? I always pictured Tilion and Arien launching from Valinor, or perhaps Taniquetil. And I thought they set on the western edge beyond Valinor, and rise on the eastern edge beyond the "lands of the sun".
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Have we thought about a more minimalist approach to showing the attack on the moon, that might keep us from having to answer a lot of these questions in a way that our audience either won't understand or will find jarring? We could show Morgoth reacting with dismay to the rising of the moon, and asking his lieutenants what can be done about it. When they have no answer, he says that he has other spirits allied to him in the far north who will destroy it. That at least explains what is going on (we'll need some kind of explanation in any case, unless we want to have Tilion narrate the battle as it is happening...). We could then show the battle from the perspective of those in Middle-Earth. The Feanorians are watching the moon from MIthrim,a nd see black shadows pass before it and blot it out for a time, until it returns.

Just an idea, and I'm open to a more full fledged treatment. But since this has to go in ep13 (or at the very end of ep12) as we've current laid things out, I worry that a big attack scene in the sky will distract from other elements of the season climax.
 
Morgoth can command both Sauron and Gothmog. They cooperate when ordered to, and this scheme has Morgoth's full attention at the moment.


Boldog is kinda a bulldog, though, so...is that really a bad thing?

So far, the only Tolkien names that have been vetoed/banned/refused to be used on screen are:
Elmo
The Hill of Túna
Celeborn's Quenya name (Teleporno)

There may be others (Rog of Gondolin definitely needs to be renamed), but those are the only clear ones I recall discussing and hearing a clear nix on.
 
MithLuin said:
Morgoth can command both Sauron and Gothmog. They cooperate when ordered to, and this scheme has Morgoth's full attention at the moment.


Boldog is kinda a bulldog, though, so...is that really a bad thing?

So far, the only Tolkien names that have been vetoed/banned/refused to be used on screen are:
Elmo
The Hill of Túna
Celeborn's Quenya name (Teleporno)

There may be others (Rog of Gondolin definitely needs to be renamed), but those are the only clear ones I recall discussing and hearing a clear nix on.
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So what will we rename Tuna?
 
Brian Dimmick said:
Have we thought about a more minimalist approach to showing the attack on the moon, that might keep us from having to answer a lot of these questions in a way that our audience either won't understand or will find jarring? We could show Morgoth reacting with dismay to the rising of the moon, and asking his lieutenants what can be done about it. When they have no answer, he says that he has other spirits allied to him in the far north who will destroy it. That at least explains what is going on (we'll need some kind of explanation in any case, unless we want to have Tilion narrate the battle as it is happening...). We could then show the battle from the perspective of those in Middle-Earth. The Feanorians are watching the moon from MIthrim,a nd see black shadows pass before it and blot it out for a time, until it returns.

Just an idea, and I'm open to a more full fledged treatment. But since this has to go in ep13 (or at the very end of ep12) as we've current laid things out, I worry that a big attack scene in the sky will distract from other elements of the season climax.
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We might be able to have our cake and eat it too here. Firstly, there is, I think, room in E12 for a scene of this type. We might be able to solve the logistical problem by having the attack on Tilion take place before he is driving the moon, and what marks him to be chosen as the guardian of the moon. If Tilion, a hunter, comes upon a group of creatures who intend to attack the Noldor (maybe some stray Noldor could even be killed by them in E11 to establish them as a threat), he can drive them off, with the resulting fight throwing up the Aurora Borealis. This can be part of the Helcaraxe plot of E11-E12, since there are only so many establishing shots of Noldor walking in snow we can do.
 
I like the idea of establishing Tilion as a hunter. Of course, I don't want the Aurora to be some sort of aftermath of an attack, either.


As for the hill of Tuna, we can call it Kor if we ever need a name for it. But we probably won't.
 
Man, I almost wish that we didn't have Tevildo down in Doriath right now, giant cats seem perfect for an enemy one would face in the frozen north.

MithLuin said:
I like the idea of establishing Tilion as a hunter. Of course, I don't want the Aurora to be some sort of aftermath of an attack, either.
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I agree; we should be seeing it being thrown up during the fight, and maybe having the Elves watching it happen.
 
He'd have to be, if he's hinting something that is hunting the Noldor.

Did Morgoth send them to attack the Noldor because he suspects they're coming after seeing the ships burn? It seems more likely that either they act independently, or he sends them to scout for possible Valarin action.
 
Faelivrin said:
He'd have to be, if he's hinting something that is hunting the Noldor.

Did Morgoth send them to attack the Noldor because he suspects they're coming after seeing the ships burn? It seems more likely that either they act independently, or he sends them to scout for possible Valarin action.
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I would have a scene where Morgoth sends them to harass the "main army of the Valar" he thinks is coming. Otherwise, it will be difficult to explain what they are doing there.
 
That would preserve the idea that the attack is sent by Morgoth to counter Valarin intervention.

And hey, Fingolfin's host is bigger than Feanor's. Even if it isn't what Morgoth had in mind.
 
Okay, so, there are three parts of the Helcaraxë journey/story.

Part 1 (Episode 9) will focus on the 'point of no return' aspect of the journey, the difficult terrain they are crossing (ice mountains and crevasses and the Grinding Ice...moves on you), and the death of Elenwë. She can be prophetic about the hope for her family in Middle Earth, Turgon can try to save her, and the dangers of the journey are highlighted in the beginning. Also, we see that there is ocean under the ice, so, fishing is a thing, albeit not an easy thing.

Part 2 (Episode 10) can focus on Tilion's storyline. So, we will have the introduction of some of the Valar caring about what happens to the Noldor who have left. In particular, Ulmo and Varda and Oromë are invested in this. [Recall that Arien is a Maia of Varda now, so she can be present at this meeting as well.] If they have any thoughts about Morgoth, they can share them, but it's clear that they are not planning to attack; that is now up to the elves, who have made their choice. So...Tilion and friends are sent onto the Helcaraxë. They can begin by doing something minor - clearing a patch of darkness left by Ungoliant (and they will need Varda's light to do that). They see the struggles of the Noldor from afar, but do not interact with them. Then, shadow demons attack! More light needed to fight back, and, bam, aurora released. The Noldor take the beautiful dancing light as a sign that...the Valar have not forgotten them? Fingon does, anyway. [He will later call on 'Manwë, to whom all birds are dear,' and accidentally summon eagles.]

{Nothing in Episode 11, which is Valar-centric and we cut to Valinor rather than the Helcaraxë}

Part 3 (Episode 12)
They're cold and starving and their animals are dead and they're out of fuel and ropes are snapping in the bitter cold and life sucks. Is there more to their story to tell? Is this where we see a test of Fingolfin's leadership?
 
The Shibboleth of Feanor describes Elenwe's death and how Turgon tried to save her. The ice broke under them and Elenwe and Idril fell in. Turgon rescued Idril and kept diving trying to save Elenwe, but almost died himself (either from hypothermia or from getting hit by more falling ice). He was unable to even recover Elenwe's body.

I imagine somebody may have to drag Turgon out of the water after he exhausts and freezes himself to the point he can't continue but is too cold to climb out and too stubborn to stop. Hypothermia freezes both muscles and brain.

MithLuin said:
They're cold and starving and their animals are dead and they're out of fuel and ropes are snapping in the bitter cold and life sucks. Is there more to their story to tell? Is this where we see a test of Fingolfin's leadership?
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I think this is also true in Part 2, albeit not the focus.
 
•How does the battle go in the North? How are the balrogs involved?

I wouldn't have any balrogs involved until later in the battle. The balrogs are the most horrible things in Middle Earth that terrify even Legolas, so having them near Feanor's host would require that either: Feanor's host easily outmatches a small number of Balrogs or Feanor's host loses. Keep the balrogs out of the picture until Feanor presses too far.

What's in the published Silmarillion is pretty good. It should work on screen. Are we really planning on doing the entire war between Feanor's host and Morgoth's host in one episode? There's a lot of stuff there.

In the published Silmarillion it says the host of Feanor comes to his aid and the "Balrogs left him". It doesn't specify that they retreat, so there might be some leeway to add a different reason for the Balrogs to depart. This would be useful to avoid undermining the power of the Balrogs.

•How does the battle go in the South? How are the ents involved?

The book says that the elves are walking peacefully in Doriath when the orc army comes out of nowhere and starts sacking everything. Thingol gets cut off from Cirdan and calls for help from Denethor. Thingol fights a battle in Doriath. The orcs surround Denethor and kill his host. Thingol retreats to Menegroth and Melian erects the Girdle of Melian and the Sindar remain under siege.

That's a lot of stuff. This episode should have lots of fighting.

I would not have the ents involved. Either they fight and get killed, or they fight and retreat. Neither works too well. The ents should be really powerful compared to version 1 of the orcs.

•What are the reasons the Noldor set out across the Helcaraxë? Which characters articulate which reasons?

The book says that Fingolfin had a choice between "[perishing] in Araman or [returning] in shame to Valinor" and he desired "as never before to come by some way to Middle Earth, and to meet Feanor again".

I think Fingolfin stays mostly silent, but he wants revenge and he makes the decision to go. I don't know too much about the other characters, but if we have a hot-head among them, I think that that hot-head will still not be as angry as Fingolfin. The hot-head can articulate the desire for revenge, but Fingolfin, despite not ranting like a lunatic, will be the angriest.

But for the host as a whole, I think they go because they cannot abide the shame of returning to Valinor.
 
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