Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
That’s actually pretty funny.
Session 3.14 - S3Ep9: Battle in Beleriand
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
Do you have any suggestion for how to do it? I'm coming up blank.
It can't be that they knew they had mortally wounded him, because it's said Feanor's death was "long" unknown to Morgoth.
I'm also not really comfortable with the idea that they retreated from the host of Feanorians who came to Feanor's rescue.
Can we use the idea I suggested earlier, that Morgoth gave them an order not to engage with the Noldorin army? That this is a test of Gothmog's tactical and strategic skills, not of his mowing-people-down skills. They sort of fudge that to engage in combat with the elven leader, since they're the leaders of their own army.
But ... if they fear Morgoth's anger for breaking orders to fight the whole army, they'd also fear his wrath that their army failed. Huh.
dietlbomb
Member
Your idea would work.
Another idea would be to involve some treachery. That's the normal Tolkien avenue for an enemy committing a huge blunder. Since we have been developing, over the course of this season, a conflict between the Balrogs and Sauron, it would be a good opportunity for that conflict to bear fruit in this big strategic defeat.
Perhaps one of Sauron's lieutenants does something that requires the Balrogs' immediate attention. Or Sauron somehow provokes the Balrogs into returning to Angband to defend their honor against Sauron's plots to usurp their status in Morgoth's organization. I could see someone telling Gothmog that Morgoth has just given Sauron some special favor in reward for his success in the South. Or maybe someone says Morgoth had decided to demote Gothmog due to his incompetence in defeating Feanor's army. It could be a true rumor, or it could be a lie from someone like Tevildo who wants to trick the Balrogs into doing something counterproductive (leaving more room for the Sauron clique at the top of the bad guy heirarchy).
Oooh, that's great! I'd like to keep my idea still, but yours is a better reason for the Balrogs to pull back. The Sons of Feanor assume it's because of their amazing prowess and general awesomeness*, but once again they're so wrong.
So... is this a plot that goes all the way to Sauron? Or one of his flunkeys? I feel like any plot that gets the army of Angband defeated would end with the perpetrator slowly tortured to death, if they were found out. Even though in this case it wouldn't be entirely or even primarily their fault. So I'm inclined to have a red-shirt vampire do it.
*
Maglor: "But Maedhros, what if those fire demons that killed Father are at this parley? You seriously think you can fight them too?"
Maedhros: "Are you kidding? We showed up with the army and they ran away like scared children!"
Maglor: "We were pretty awesome."
Celegorm: "But that doesn't even make sense. They weren't afraid of Father at all."
Maedhros: "You didn't see how awesome we were."
So... is this a plot that goes all the way to Sauron? Or one of his flunkeys? I feel like any plot that gets the army of Angband defeated would end with the perpetrator slowly tortured to death, if they were found out. Even though in this case it wouldn't be entirely or even primarily their fault. So I'm inclined to have a red-shirt vampire do it.
*
Maglor: "But Maedhros, what if those fire demons that killed Father are at this parley? You seriously think you can fight them too?"
Maedhros: "Are you kidding? We showed up with the army and they ran away like scared children!"
Maglor: "We were pretty awesome."
Celegorm: "But that doesn't even make sense. They weren't afraid of Father at all."
Maedhros: "You didn't see how awesome we were."
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dietlbomb
Member
I love this.
It could be something like a half-truth. Tevildo says something entirely true--e.g. Morgoth is pleased with Sauron's leadership in the South--but implies that Gothmog is in trouble without actually spelling it out. Tevildo is sneaky like that. (It's probably no coincidence that Tevildo is an anagram for O.T. Devil). But having a redshirt lackey do this would work as well. It would give Gothmog someone to kill.
I think the message can't arrive in the middle of battle, at the same time as the Sons of Feanor. It's got to arrive during the earlier part of the battle, and Gothmog has this on his mind as he retreats in the rearguard, before Feanor gets so far ahead of the Noldor.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I think we might be overcomplicating this. If Fëanor acquits himself at all well, the 7-10 balrogs can likely suss out that an entire army of the Noldor fresh from Aman is bad news for them. I don't think we need any reason for their retreat more complicated than self-preservation.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I couldn't remember the exact number.
I think we were at about 9, but I'm willing to call it seven, since that's what it's supposed to be. We had roughly 10 ice demons (who were killed in the War of the Powers), and Arien was originally with the balrogs but defected. So if there were roughly 10 to start with, we should be down to 9 now. But the 2 extra could have been lost in the final retreat to Angband or something.
We've only ever named Gothmog, though. So, really, it's Gothmog + mooks. Obviously, *one* of the remaining balrogs is going to go on to become Durin's Bane. And one will die in Gondolin at the hands of the original Legolas Greenleaf. Basically, the final number of balrogs will be determined when we get to the War of Wrath and figure out how many on-screen balrog deaths we can handle. We have to account for all of them throughout the First Age. There have been suggestions of balrog involvement in particular battles/deaths, and so we'll have to make sure we have the right number in the right place, but yes, the goal is to make do with 7 throughout the First Age.
With respect to the current battle, it seems clear that Gothmog is out 'in the field' with his army, but not engaged in the fighting. The balrogs who attack Fëanor came from Angband, so it's safe to say that these are 'mook' balrogs and that Gothmog is not with them. So, 2-6 balrogs in the group that attacks Fëanor.
But. If we have 6 balrogs attack, and Fëanor is able to hold his own, this immediately makes the balrogs look weak. We really can't afford to have red shirt balrogs. The weakest, most insignificant balrog of them all should still be burn-your-face-off terrifying. Tolkien wrote different parts of the story at different times, and obviously the balrogs became more and more fearsome fire demons in later years. We certainly do not want to reduce them to Book of Lost Tales 'Fall of Gondolin' style balrogs, so I think it very important that we reduce their numbers in this fight. Fëanor, who is with a troop of Noldor, should be facing a group of 2 or at most 3 balrogs, *not* all of them. The others can be with Gothmog. In fact, this contingent could attack without Gothmog's orders (due to whatever behind-the-scenes machinations we give Sauron), and withdraw because they think Gothmog might be upset with them for acting without orders (or something).
ALL of the balrogs together fought off Ungoliant, and she was an appropriate foe for that level of fire power. To be honest, the Noldor are no match for that. If there aren't any bottomless chasms around to drop them into.... But no, in all seriousness, we want a single balrog to be seen as a serious threat for the remainder of our series. The type of foe that no single warrior, no matter how powerful, can possibly overcome. And so...Fëanor cannot be seen to defeat or drive off *any* balrogs. I don't care how awesome he is, he just can't do it. And the contingent that comes up to save him can't do it either, though the balrogs could withdraw for their own reasons when they see the elf army arrive.
It is also unlikely that *all* of the balrogs will be present at Maedhros' capture. That will be another opportunity to demonstrate that the arrival of a balrog means the devastation of an army. We will need that object lesson, I think. (Maedhros only survives because they want him alive.)
Speaking of....we will probably want to see Maedhros as a captive in Angband before he gets stapled to the cliff. I don't know if Morgoth will want to question him personally, or if Sauron will want to meet him, or what, but...we will probably want at least one evil gloating scene. And then we get to decide if Morgoth lets Maedhros see him wearing the crown with the silmarils or not (technically, that should not happen, but I can't see Morgoth talking to him without that on, either).
We've only ever named Gothmog, though. So, really, it's Gothmog + mooks. Obviously, *one* of the remaining balrogs is going to go on to become Durin's Bane. And one will die in Gondolin at the hands of the original Legolas Greenleaf. Basically, the final number of balrogs will be determined when we get to the War of Wrath and figure out how many on-screen balrog deaths we can handle. We have to account for all of them throughout the First Age. There have been suggestions of balrog involvement in particular battles/deaths, and so we'll have to make sure we have the right number in the right place, but yes, the goal is to make do with 7 throughout the First Age.
With respect to the current battle, it seems clear that Gothmog is out 'in the field' with his army, but not engaged in the fighting. The balrogs who attack Fëanor came from Angband, so it's safe to say that these are 'mook' balrogs and that Gothmog is not with them. So, 2-6 balrogs in the group that attacks Fëanor.
But. If we have 6 balrogs attack, and Fëanor is able to hold his own, this immediately makes the balrogs look weak. We really can't afford to have red shirt balrogs. The weakest, most insignificant balrog of them all should still be burn-your-face-off terrifying. Tolkien wrote different parts of the story at different times, and obviously the balrogs became more and more fearsome fire demons in later years. We certainly do not want to reduce them to Book of Lost Tales 'Fall of Gondolin' style balrogs, so I think it very important that we reduce their numbers in this fight. Fëanor, who is with a troop of Noldor, should be facing a group of 2 or at most 3 balrogs, *not* all of them. The others can be with Gothmog. In fact, this contingent could attack without Gothmog's orders (due to whatever behind-the-scenes machinations we give Sauron), and withdraw because they think Gothmog might be upset with them for acting without orders (or something).
ALL of the balrogs together fought off Ungoliant, and she was an appropriate foe for that level of fire power. To be honest, the Noldor are no match for that. If there aren't any bottomless chasms around to drop them into.... But no, in all seriousness, we want a single balrog to be seen as a serious threat for the remainder of our series. The type of foe that no single warrior, no matter how powerful, can possibly overcome. And so...Fëanor cannot be seen to defeat or drive off *any* balrogs. I don't care how awesome he is, he just can't do it. And the contingent that comes up to save him can't do it either, though the balrogs could withdraw for their own reasons when they see the elf army arrive.
It is also unlikely that *all* of the balrogs will be present at Maedhros' capture. That will be another opportunity to demonstrate that the arrival of a balrog means the devastation of an army. We will need that object lesson, I think. (Maedhros only survives because they want him alive.)
Speaking of....we will probably want to see Maedhros as a captive in Angband before he gets stapled to the cliff. I don't know if Morgoth will want to question him personally, or if Sauron will want to meet him, or what, but...we will probably want at least one evil gloating scene. And then we get to decide if Morgoth lets Maedhros see him wearing the crown with the silmarils or not (technically, that should not happen, but I can't see Morgoth talking to him without that on, either).
Glad to hear that!
Haerangil maybe could correct me if I'm wrong, but I think some others are named in the Lost Tales. Likely as not those names aren't valid in LotR-style Sindarin or Quenya, besides the question of why Balrogs would even speak Elvish among themselves, but if names are desired that might be a source.
That's a really good point, and I agree it should only be 2 or 3 of them. But Gothmog in the 1977 Silm specifically kills Feanor.
"Thus it was that he drew far ahead of the van of his host; and seeing this the servants of Morgoth turned to bay, and there issued from Angband Balrogs to aid them."
"but at the last he was smitten to the ground by Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, whom Ecthelion after slew in Gondolin."
Now those are the exact words used in the Grey Annals. But the idea goes back all the way to the 1930 Sketch of the Mythology, where Gothmog is only "a Balrog chief". Are you saying you think that the idea was retained without the modification it needed in light of the increasing scariness of Balrogs?
Fingon holds his own against Gothmog until another Balrog backstabs him. So to some extent we will need to accept that a single Noldo can be a match for a Balrog... very briefly. Fingolfin held his own against Morgoth for a brief time. In the long run they always lose, of course, but they do stay on their feet for at least a short fight.
He never took it off, so of course Morgoth will wear it, and taunt him with it.
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Brian Dimmick
Active Member
Perhaps the balrogs have been given orders by Morgoth not to engage the elven army--they are sent out only when Feanor gets ahead of his host and Morgoth sees the opportunityt o take him down alone. He may want to keep the balrogs hidden from the elves as much as possible, to inspire maximum fear when they are used and so the elves never learn how to fight against them. So he might want them to avoid engaging with a large army of elves, and they withdraw when Feanor's sons arrive with force. His strategy in this will change before the Dagor Bragollach, where the balrogs lead the way, but that can be explained by the change in his circumstances and the nature of that as a surprise attack. This isn't a perfect solution, since he does send balrogs to the parley with Maedhros, but some version of it might be a way to solve this current issue.
As a side question, when does Morgoth learn of Feanor's death? The text says that it is hidden from him for a while, but I can't imagine he wouldn't know of it by the time he offers to parley with Maedhros, and certainly he would know or guess it when Feanor isn't at the parley. I assume that some amount of time passes before the parley, and that can encompass Morgoth not knowing "for a while," but wondering if this has been discussed. Certainly we can't have the balrogs leave the attack on Feanor because they think they have killed him, since they would obviously tell Morgoth.
Brian Dimmick
Active Member
Going back to the episode outlines, do we need a scene (in episode 11?) of the Feanorians meeting the Sindar who live in Mithrim, and greeting them as lost kinfolk? This seems to come (from its place in the published Silmarillion) after the death of Feanor and before the emissary from Morgoth, but we don't necessarily have to put it there. But soemhow we have to convey the sense of the Sindar that the arrival of the Noldor is deliverance for them from the Valar.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Perhaps Feanor takes a long time to die? I gave a suggestion a few pages ago of him receiving a couple wounds while fighting as the episode ends, then when his sons arrive in the next episode and rescue him, he's like covered in burns and full of holes.
The fact that there are multiple balrogs at both Fëanor's death and Maedhros' parley does suggest a slightly powered-down version of the later immensely powerful fire demons. In very early days (Book of Lost Tales 'Fall of Gondolin' from 1916) there were thousands of balrogs, and they were little more than...trolls. Extra-powerful orcs. [For perspective, the dragons in that story are hollow and metallic machines, not creatures.] Scary creatures, but...nothing like what Gandalf encounters in Moria in the Lord of the Rings. So, yes, I think all of the pre-LotR stories are written with less powerful balrogs in mind, and we should keep that in our minds when we consider how such scenes play out.
Not that we have to *change* them, but that we have to account for things. So if two (out of only 7) balrogs are going to die in Gondolin, and if no other elves ever manage to slay a balrog until the War of Wrath, then it will be on us to figure out what was so special about Gondolin, and how did they figure out how to take out a balrog? [Which we have discussed, in the context of the ongoing Sauron vs Gothmog feud.]
Do we want to preserve Gothmog personally killing Fëanor? It would be difficult to pull off logistically in the battle we currently have planned. I think we would have to sacrifice having him in the field, which would then make it look like he spent the entire season hanging out on the coast for no reason.
As for names, there are certainly some in Lost Tales that we can consider, if we wanted to. Fluithuin or Ulbandi is an ogress (and Gothmog's mother, back when the Maiar were children of the Valar). So, either name could work for a balrog if we wanted to use it. I don't think we need to name them, but they must have names, and Gothmog or Morgoth would use such names when giving them orders. So, dialogue might (at some point) introduce a named balrog other than Gothmog. In those earlier stories, Gothmog's name was Kalimbo/Kosomot/Kosmoko, so we could also use one of those for another balrog. The alternative name for the lord of balrogs in The Lay of the Children of Húrin is Lungorthin.
Brian, I think we are saving the Sindar/Noldor first contact for Season 4, as it will be an important theme of the Season. Círdan's scouts will see the Noldor and make Thingol aware of their presence, but there is as of yet no contact between the two groups.
Not that we have to *change* them, but that we have to account for things. So if two (out of only 7) balrogs are going to die in Gondolin, and if no other elves ever manage to slay a balrog until the War of Wrath, then it will be on us to figure out what was so special about Gondolin, and how did they figure out how to take out a balrog? [Which we have discussed, in the context of the ongoing Sauron vs Gothmog feud.]
Do we want to preserve Gothmog personally killing Fëanor? It would be difficult to pull off logistically in the battle we currently have planned. I think we would have to sacrifice having him in the field, which would then make it look like he spent the entire season hanging out on the coast for no reason.
As for names, there are certainly some in Lost Tales that we can consider, if we wanted to. Fluithuin or Ulbandi is an ogress (and Gothmog's mother, back when the Maiar were children of the Valar). So, either name could work for a balrog if we wanted to use it. I don't think we need to name them, but they must have names, and Gothmog or Morgoth would use such names when giving them orders. So, dialogue might (at some point) introduce a named balrog other than Gothmog. In those earlier stories, Gothmog's name was Kalimbo/Kosomot/Kosmoko, so we could also use one of those for another balrog. The alternative name for the lord of balrogs in The Lay of the Children of Húrin is Lungorthin.
Brian, I think we are saving the Sindar/Noldor first contact for Season 4, as it will be an important theme of the Season. Círdan's scouts will see the Noldor and make Thingol aware of their presence, but there is as of yet no contact between the two groups.
It’s hard not to think that Morgoth is holding his Balrogs back. No Balrogs attack the Noldor until Fëanor is close to Angband, and they seem to be just a few, as you’ve said - maybe three of them. And when the sons of Fëanor arrive they retreat. Why? He could have killed them all. His choices are irrational or based on false assumptions. He waits for the Valar and a greater host of Noldor. Maybe he’s also afraid. Not of the Noldor but again of the Valar. He’s gone paranoid and expects some kind of trap. He also remembers the first war, when he was more powerful and had more beasts and demons under his command, and the Valar still won. He has to be careful.
So at which point does he realise that the Valar won’t come?
So at which point does he realise that the Valar won’t come?
Well, yes. But. There's another point to consider. We are told that all of the effort of the Noldor armies in Beleriand did not gain them so much as a glimpse of the silmarils. And so...does Maedhros see them here? If not, it can easily be seen as a reason *not* to show Morgoth and Maedhros in the same place after his capture - Morgoth doesn't need to visit the dungeon or personally affix Maedhros to the cliff. He has lackeys for that.
There is value to showing Morgoth taunting Maedhros, to have Maedhros' reaction to seeing that crown. I don't think we *have* to skip out on including that scene. Just pointing out that such a scene is not 100% consistent with some of the sweeping generalizations made by the narrator of our story.
[We'll have to deal with that question again for the Fingolfin/Morgoth duel, so best to get it out of the way now.]
Well Morgoth could have his underlings drag Maedhros to his throne room, but force him to have his face into the ground so he can't see the Silmarils. He taunts him and says that Maedhros will never see the Silmarils, although Maedhros can see the light of them reflected in the basalt floor.