Session 3.15 - S3Ep10: Battle under Stars
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
Sons of Fëanor post-shipburning - a quick check-in to see how everyone is doing:
Maedhros - He just made a pretty decisive move to separate himself from his father's decision. That's nearly an act of open rebellion, and I can't imagine Fëanor takes it well. There would have to be some who are waiting to see if Maedhros is going to challenge his father's leadership to the point of usurping it. After his father's death, he has his own army (which none of his brothers are in) fairly quickly; that suggests that he has a loyal cadre of followers within the Fëanorean camp. The threat of betrayal may not have been left behind on the other shore, some people must be thinking....
Maglor - The obvious choice to try to talk Maedhros down. Yes, this is bad, but you're doing no one any favors by challenging Dad. Cut it out before someone else gets killed. Stay focused on our mission here - we're fighting Morgoth, and we all want that, same as Fëanor. He's probably not ready to compose the Noldolantë yet, but a sense of the tragedy has to be growing in him.
Celegorm - What are politics? I see this wide open new land here. Let's go exploring! Why are people sad? I don't get it.
Curufin - Dad's right, and Maedhros used to be able to see that. We need to get him back in line ASAP, before he ruins everything. Maglor, go talk some sense into that idiot.
Caranthir - Leave me alone. (To be fair, that's usually how he is, so...but he'd be upset about Amrod's death and extra-surly now.)
Amras - Shell-shocked and dazed? SUPER angry? Silent? Blaming his family and lashing out? Whatever direction we go with this, he's grieving, hardcore.
I'm mostly joking about Celegorm. He wouldn't be unaffected by witnessing his brother burn to death as a result of an action he took. But...on the other hand, he'd handle it by throwing himself into his work, and they *finally* have work to do that's right up his alley. Go explore Middle Earth? Yes, please! Oromë's pupil and his pet dog are ready and eager for this task. Time to go find the Rainbow Cleft and the entrance to Mithrim!
Maedhros - He just made a pretty decisive move to separate himself from his father's decision. That's nearly an act of open rebellion, and I can't imagine Fëanor takes it well. There would have to be some who are waiting to see if Maedhros is going to challenge his father's leadership to the point of usurping it. After his father's death, he has his own army (which none of his brothers are in) fairly quickly; that suggests that he has a loyal cadre of followers within the Fëanorean camp. The threat of betrayal may not have been left behind on the other shore, some people must be thinking....
Maglor - The obvious choice to try to talk Maedhros down. Yes, this is bad, but you're doing no one any favors by challenging Dad. Cut it out before someone else gets killed. Stay focused on our mission here - we're fighting Morgoth, and we all want that, same as Fëanor. He's probably not ready to compose the Noldolantë yet, but a sense of the tragedy has to be growing in him.
Celegorm - What are politics? I see this wide open new land here. Let's go exploring! Why are people sad? I don't get it.
Curufin - Dad's right, and Maedhros used to be able to see that. We need to get him back in line ASAP, before he ruins everything. Maglor, go talk some sense into that idiot.
Caranthir - Leave me alone. (To be fair, that's usually how he is, so...but he'd be upset about Amrod's death and extra-surly now.)
Amras - Shell-shocked and dazed? SUPER angry? Silent? Blaming his family and lashing out? Whatever direction we go with this, he's grieving, hardcore.
I'm mostly joking about Celegorm. He wouldn't be unaffected by witnessing his brother burn to death as a result of an action he took. But...on the other hand, he'd handle it by throwing himself into his work, and they *finally* have work to do that's right up his alley. Go explore Middle Earth? Yes, please! Oromë's pupil and his pet dog are ready and eager for this task. Time to go find the Rainbow Cleft and the entrance to Mithrim!
I doubt Maedhros is going to challenge Feanor any more directly than he already did at Losgar. If anything he's going to tone it down, because look where that got them?
I think I said all I wanted to say (so far) about Amros post-Losgar in the Burning of the Ships and Feanorian Storylines threads. I linked to those threads so I'm not repeating myself.
I think he's shocked and angry, and pissed at everybody except Celebrimbor and maybe Maedhros. Maybe shunning them and then being very irritable and unfriendly (or very cold) when they try to deal with him. He can't quit the war and won't sabotage it, but he's pissed and not afraid to show it, even to the point of saying very unfriendly things to Dad's face. He's the "leave me alone" guy, I think.
But nobody dared to mention Amrod's death to Feanor's face ever again.
Which brothers now realize Feanor is insane (besides Amros), which now suspect or worry things aren't right, and which are still sure Feanor's entirely sane?
I think I said all I wanted to say (so far) about Amros post-Losgar in the Burning of the Ships and Feanorian Storylines threads. I linked to those threads so I'm not repeating myself.
I think he's shocked and angry, and pissed at everybody except Celebrimbor and maybe Maedhros. Maybe shunning them and then being very irritable and unfriendly (or very cold) when they try to deal with him. He can't quit the war and won't sabotage it, but he's pissed and not afraid to show it, even to the point of saying very unfriendly things to Dad's face. He's the "leave me alone" guy, I think.
But nobody dared to mention Amrod's death to Feanor's face ever again.
Which brothers now realize Feanor is insane (besides Amros), which now suspect or worry things aren't right, and which are still sure Feanor's entirely sane?
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ForthDauntless3
Member
I have some thoughts regarding the Balrogs:
1) I'm in favor of few balrogs with great power. We obviously need to maintain continuity with the published Lord of the Rings, and the balrog of Moria is clearly of a level with Gandalf and far greater than Aragorn. Knowing that Turin killed only a single dragon, and yet is said to be the greatest warrior among all the Children, suggests that Tuor really can't have killed a dozen balrogs or more.
2) I think there's literary value in a parallelism between the number of balrogs and the later Rings of Power. My first inclination would be to have 16 balrogs and imply that Sauron was deliberately attempting to mimic them by convincing Celebrimbor to craft the original great rings, by which he could create a new group of servants.
1) I'm in favor of few balrogs with great power. We obviously need to maintain continuity with the published Lord of the Rings, and the balrog of Moria is clearly of a level with Gandalf and far greater than Aragorn. Knowing that Turin killed only a single dragon, and yet is said to be the greatest warrior among all the Children, suggests that Tuor really can't have killed a dozen balrogs or more.
2) I think there's literary value in a parallelism between the number of balrogs and the later Rings of Power. My first inclination would be to have 16 balrogs and imply that Sauron was deliberately attempting to mimic them by convincing Celebrimbor to craft the original great rings, by which he could create a new group of servants.
The_Singing_Fox
Member
I think the number of Balrogs has already been decided. It is seven, if I am remembering correctly. Nevertheless I like the idea of paralleling the number of Balrogs to Sauron's original Rings of Power.
EDIT: Yes, it is seven Balrogs. This is what MithLuin wrote in another thread:
EDIT: Yes, it is seven Balrogs. This is what MithLuin wrote in another thread:
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My recollection from Season One was that we gave Melkor 20 Maiar followers in their pre-balrog angelic states. Arien defected before the destruction of the Lamps, and the others fell and became balrogs at that time. Half of the remaining balrogs were destroyed in the War to Begin All Wars with the fall of Utumno (some of these may have been ice demons, rather than fire demons, to demonstrate both aspects of his 'extremes of heat and cold'...but they're all dead now).
So, we should have about nine remaining balrogs (of the fire demon variety) at the moment. In Season 2, we showed them taking over Angband (that had been left under Sauron's command) and hunting elves in the woods for sport. We have established them as thugs.
Tolkien's final note on the subject was that there were 'at most' only ever 3-7 balrogs. Obviously, three balrog deaths appear in his writing in the published Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings: (Gothmog, the other balrog who falls in Gondolin, and Durin's Bane). So, that's the bare minimum. Any non-Durin's Bane balrogs remaining at the end of the First Age can be killed off in the War of Wrath. That was not described in any detail, and the main impressive fight is between Earendil and Ancalagon the Black. So, if we add balrogs, we need to add balrog deaths, too.
It's rather important that we don't make balrogs easy to kill. If we start adding a balrog death to all major battles, we reduce their terror. If we have a bunch of them ineffectively doing something, that reduces their power. So, the way the First Age battles are written, NO ONE kills a balrog until the Fall of Gondolin. And then we lose 2, including Gothmog. So, that needs to be a big deal, we need to build up to the story of how and why it finally happens in Gondolin when it didn't happen earlier [real life reason - Tolkien wrote that story when it was easy to kill balrogs]. We can add balrog kills (so far, we know they mortally wound Fëanor and they kill Fingon, but we could have other elf deaths in battle be attributed to balrogs). Otherwise, we run the risk of showing a balrog die every time we see a balrog fight, and..that shouldn't be the case.
So, IF we do not add any earlier balrog deaths, and we have 7 balrogs going into the First Age, two will die in Gondolin and four will die in the War of Wrath. Alternatively, we can lose some along the way, in the Battle of Sudden Flame, in the Unnumbered Tears, etc. But like I said, we seriously run the risk of making a balrog no different on screen than a troll - large and scary looking, and not so easy to kill, but nothing particularly terrifying about it.
The rule of thumb is that to kill a balrog, you need to die in the contest. And preferably, there is some sort of long drop involved. Every fighter should fear facing one. Gandalf the wizard wasn't afraid of much, but he was afraid of that. Sauron knows that the balrogs are more powerful than he is, and acts accordingly. I am not suggesting that a balrog can single-handedly take on an army, but they are really quite difficult to destroy. If we have to draw a comparison, they should be closer to dragons than trolls. Killable, sure, but not by just anyone.
So, we should have about nine remaining balrogs (of the fire demon variety) at the moment. In Season 2, we showed them taking over Angband (that had been left under Sauron's command) and hunting elves in the woods for sport. We have established them as thugs.
Tolkien's final note on the subject was that there were 'at most' only ever 3-7 balrogs. Obviously, three balrog deaths appear in his writing in the published Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings: (Gothmog, the other balrog who falls in Gondolin, and Durin's Bane). So, that's the bare minimum. Any non-Durin's Bane balrogs remaining at the end of the First Age can be killed off in the War of Wrath. That was not described in any detail, and the main impressive fight is between Earendil and Ancalagon the Black. So, if we add balrogs, we need to add balrog deaths, too.
It's rather important that we don't make balrogs easy to kill. If we start adding a balrog death to all major battles, we reduce their terror. If we have a bunch of them ineffectively doing something, that reduces their power. So, the way the First Age battles are written, NO ONE kills a balrog until the Fall of Gondolin. And then we lose 2, including Gothmog. So, that needs to be a big deal, we need to build up to the story of how and why it finally happens in Gondolin when it didn't happen earlier [real life reason - Tolkien wrote that story when it was easy to kill balrogs]. We can add balrog kills (so far, we know they mortally wound Fëanor and they kill Fingon, but we could have other elf deaths in battle be attributed to balrogs). Otherwise, we run the risk of showing a balrog die every time we see a balrog fight, and..that shouldn't be the case.
So, IF we do not add any earlier balrog deaths, and we have 7 balrogs going into the First Age, two will die in Gondolin and four will die in the War of Wrath. Alternatively, we can lose some along the way, in the Battle of Sudden Flame, in the Unnumbered Tears, etc. But like I said, we seriously run the risk of making a balrog no different on screen than a troll - large and scary looking, and not so easy to kill, but nothing particularly terrifying about it.
The rule of thumb is that to kill a balrog, you need to die in the contest. And preferably, there is some sort of long drop involved. Every fighter should fear facing one. Gandalf the wizard wasn't afraid of much, but he was afraid of that. Sauron knows that the balrogs are more powerful than he is, and acts accordingly. I am not suggesting that a balrog can single-handedly take on an army, but they are really quite difficult to destroy. If we have to draw a comparison, they should be closer to dragons than trolls. Killable, sure, but not by just anyone.
My only quibble is that I think Sauron is, probably, mightier than a single Balrog. Otherwise I agree with what you said MithLuin.
Now there are 7 Balrogs and there were the Seven Rings. Then there were the Three Rings (parallelling Feanor's Silmarils), and the Nine Rings, parallelling... what? The Three preserve and protect, the Seven have to do with wealth, and the Nine have to do with power and domination... I think. Wealth makes me think of Dragons, not Balrogs, but maybe some parallellism could be made to work.
Now there are 7 Balrogs and there were the Seven Rings. Then there were the Three Rings (parallelling Feanor's Silmarils), and the Nine Rings, parallelling... what? The Three preserve and protect, the Seven have to do with wealth, and the Nine have to do with power and domination... I think. Wealth makes me think of Dragons, not Balrogs, but maybe some parallellism could be made to work.
Indeed, which brings up the (related?) question of how many Dragon deaths we want to allow on-screen. There's no fixed number of Dragons and they can reproduce, so the only rules I can think of at the moment are that Glaurung is the first, Ancalagon is the first with wings, and they're very deadly and hard to kill. So I wouldn't want more than a few Dragon deaths on screen, but Turin doesn't necessarily have to be the only Dragon-slayer before the War of Wrath.
Well I lost contact with the session the last 30 minutes or so, so I’m not sure if anything was mentioned about this, but here are my thoughts:
Sauron has been ordered to return to Angband. His werewolves are, if I understand things correctly, in a swamp. I’m not sure what this means but I guess they’re still alive but not involved in the action this episode (unless they end up in the swamp this episode?). Sauron could be a bit upset perhaps... Anyway, Tevildo should find him, or Thuringwethil should bring Sauron the news that Tevildo has found the elven hiding place. I prefer Thuringwethil actually since she can fly and we can assume she gets to Shelob pretty fast. We don’t have to show the meeting of the bat and the spider.
Then there’s the eastern front, where Dwarves and Eöl attack orcs.
Also, we have the Green elves who don’t elect a leader, and some of them move to Doriath, but maybe we should wait with that? Should they move there before or after the Girdle is established?
The_Singing_Fox
Member
There are at least two third-age dragon kills that come to my mind: Smaug and Scatha the Worm, slewn by Fram, a leader of the ancestors of the Rohirrim. I think we need to keep these in mind, too. And, interestingly, dragon slayers do not usually die in their encounter with the dragon whereas noone is known to have killed a Balrog and survived (at least noone post-Lost-Tales).
If we gave Morgoth 3 silmarils, 7 dragons, and 9 balrogs....
And then gave Sauron the One ring to control 3 Elven rings, 7 dwarf rings, and 9 Nazgul...that could work as a parallel.
At least one of the dragons would have to survive the war of wrath to move to the Grey Mountains. But that leaves up to 4 dragons who can do other things in our story.
And then gave Sauron the One ring to control 3 Elven rings, 7 dwarf rings, and 9 Nazgul...that could work as a parallel.
At least one of the dragons would have to survive the war of wrath to move to the Grey Mountains. But that leaves up to 4 dragons who can do other things in our story.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Well, there’s only three silmarils, Feanor’s family jewels, and two named dragons during the First Age that I can recall: Glaurung and Ancalagon the Black.
Yes. As the Father of Dragons, Glaurung is first, and he grows slowly. We can't have any dragons before him. But it is rather strongly implied that Morgoth was breeding multiple dragons, not just Glaurung and Ancalagon. The others are just never mentioned/named.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Maybe that's why there would be so few, because they grow slowly?
Did you get my joke about the Silmarils?
Dragons do grow extremely slowly. We don't know how slow but it seems like maybe it takes centuries.
But it would have to be 3 Silmarils, 7 Balrogs, and 9 Dragons.
Frame: I'm watching the S03E03 podcast and I want to ask, is it too late to persuade Corey Olson to name Halbarad's son Herendil? Then we can use the name Hamilcar for an actual hobbit if the Dunedain go to defend the Shire, or in the frame for Season 4/5 when Bilbo is the frame protagonist. A hobbit named Hamilcar surely would appeal to Corey.
But it would have to be 3 Silmarils, 7 Balrogs, and 9 Dragons.
Frame: I'm watching the S03E03 podcast and I want to ask, is it too late to persuade Corey Olson to name Halbarad's son Herendil? Then we can use the name Hamilcar for an actual hobbit if the Dunedain go to defend the Shire, or in the frame for Season 4/5 when Bilbo is the frame protagonist. A hobbit named Hamilcar surely would appeal to Corey.
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Halstein
Active Member
And Morgoth has one crown, to have one of something too.
We have not discussed or revisited the Frame since that decision was made, but it seemed a rather firm decision at the time. We will discuss the Frame again during the script outline review at the end of the season.
I don't really see any parallel between the 7 dwarf rings and the balrogs, to be fair.
I don't really see any parallel between the 7 dwarf rings and the balrogs, to be fair.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
It's with the dragons. Balrogs are the parallel with the Nazgul.
Did no one get my pun?
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I wish I didn't.
Angeleyes, one of my jobs is teaching high school biology. Part of that job is pretending I don't get innuendo for the amusement value of teens. Another part is to be able to discuss reproduction and related topics with a straight face while sticking to technical terminology.
So, yes, I have heard jokes about Feanor and his family jewels before, and find that they work best without the *wink wink nudge nudge* followup. I am currently discussing the genetic makeup of elf gametes on another thread here...that interests me.
So, yes, I have heard jokes about Feanor and his family jewels before, and find that they work best without the *wink wink nudge nudge* followup. I am currently discussing the genetic makeup of elf gametes on another thread here...that interests me.