Session 3.15 - S3Ep10: Battle under Stars

[Faelivrin]

I don't think that makes sense, Nick. Somebody has to restrain Turgon. How can it take away screen time if that person is Glorfindel instead of Fingolfin? They'll have the exact same # of lines (maybe no lines at all) and # of minutes of screentime. How is it possibly any different? There is literally no difference except which actor is in the scene. It could be an unnamed extra (or 2 of them) who's never ever seen again and it still wouldn't change the pacing at all. Turgon would get the exact same lines and minutes of screentime no matter what.


When I suggest having an extra who will eventually turn out to be a named character someday later, I think you are misunderstanding what I want to do. You seem to think that I want to add 3-4 additional scenes of them talking and being introduced. But I'm not saying that. I'm talking about planting extras who have no lines until some later episode or season, in place of other extras we were going to have anyway who would not have been anybody ever.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Because putting nameless, speechless extras in does not actually introduce them. And having them act in ways that are pivotal to the story rather than characters we know reduces the emotional impact of the scene.

Take this one for example:

Now this film got a lot of flack for killing a bunch of people and/or putting them in danger without asking the audience to care about them.

Now in this scene, you have to really watch closely to see the pain of the father who is about to fail to protect his family (Interestingly, if you are really paying attention, you can see he could have easily gotten away himself.)

But that is not what the scene asks the casual viewer to care about. We care that Superman is being forced to kill Zod. The viewer knows the family is in danger, but that isn't really what we care about.

If Fingolfin is the one holding Turgon back, it adds an additional layer of nuance to the scene. If I see Turgon struggling against a faceless extra to make another futile attempt to save his wife, I empathize on the level of a husband failing to protect his wife. If it is Fingolfin, I also get to see his father's failure to protect his son from this pain. I get to see Fingolfin's guilt for bringing them all here. The audience has met Elenwë in Season 2, but she hasn't had a lot of screen time barring the two scenes she gets in this episode, so we need to use every possible tool in our arsenal to make certain that this death is felt.

 

[Faelivrin]

OK, now I understand better why you want to give that role to Fingolfin. It makes sense to me now.

Because putting nameless, speechless extras in does not actually introduce them.

But I still don't understand this (in general). No, it doesn't introduce them as specific people, but it doesn't need to. It solves the problem of characters who will be prominent -- who were prominent or would have been if we could spare them screen time earlier -- somehow not existing when they should have. Galadriel's brothers were extras in Season 2. It would have been weird and silly if they never existed on screen until suddenly they're prominent among Finarfin's people in the Rebellion, just out of nowhere. I think it's good that they did exist in Season 2.

I'm not good at looking at things from the pacing or emotional perspective as you are, but I try to look at things from the perspective of showing a window into a world that exists and has depth. Part of making that feel so verisimil and rich is putting in lots of little things in the background that wouldn't be noticed until after rewatching, but which make it all feel more real because they connect together as an intricate web. It adds depth and avoids having important people or concepts seem to appear out of nowhere without an apparent connection to the rest of the world.

Audiences can be affected by the feeling of depth and real-ness even if they never notice any specific detail that creates that depth. It's one of the ways Arda is so engaging. With characters, faces can be slightly familiar if they've been seen a few times on screen before, as extras, before they get a name and lines.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

OK, now I understand better why you want to give that role to Fingolfin. It makes sense to me now.

But I still don't understand this (in general). No, it doesn't introduce them as specific people, but it doesn't need to. It solves the problem of characters who will be prominent -- who were prominent or would have been if we could spare them screen time earlier -- somehow not existing when they should have. Galadriel's brothers were extras in Season 2. It would have been weird and silly if they never existed on screen until suddenly they're prominent among Finarfin's people in the Rebellion, just out of nowhere. I think it's good that they did exist in Season 2.

I'm not good at looking at things from the pacing or emotional perspective as you are, but I try to look at things from the perspective of showing a window into a world that exists and has depth. Part of making that feel so verisimil and rich is putting in lots of little things in the background that wouldn't be noticed until after rewatching, but which make it all feel more real because they connect together as an intricate web. It adds depth and avoids having important people or concepts seem to appear out of nowhere without an apparent connection to the rest of the world.

Audiences can be affected by the feeling of depth and real-ness even if they never notice any specific detail that creates that depth. It's one of the ways Arda is so engaging. With characters, faces can be slightly familiar if they've been seen a few times on screen before, as extras, before they get a name and lines.

We are not unaware of this. Throughout Seasons 1 and 2 we have noted that there are characters in the background whom we will bring forward as they become more important. We have done this most obviously with the grandsons of Finwë. They come forward as they become important, as did Beleg and Mablung. I'm just not willing to substitute unnamed characters without dialogue (however important they will become) for characters we know and care about. We can see them in the background without having them impacting the story for as long as necessary. We just shouldn't focus on them until it becomes important to do so.

 

[MithLuin]

Faelivrin, after you left last night, Nick and I discussed whether it should be Fingolfin or Glorfindel holding Turgon back in that scene. Fingon was also brought up as a possibility.

Glorfindel *is* awesome, and he *is* there on the Helcaraxë, presumably with Turgon. So, he was an option.

We chose not to use him for a few reasons. One, he has not yet been introduced. So, he would be quite clearly "random blond extra" in this scene, not Glorfindel the Awesome. Glorfindel can be snuck into the background of a few scenes, but he does deserve an intro - a scene where his character is introduced to the audience. So, as far as I'm concerned, we have not yet done that for him in this project. Until we do, he's a nameless blond elf.

For another reason, what was required in this role was someone who would be telling Turgon what to do. Fingolfin is his father and lord; it makes perfect sense for him to order Turgon to stop. Glorfindel and Ecthelion are Turgon's underlings. Physically restraining their lord is something they could do (especially to save his life), but surely that would require a bit of explanation or background? Of how they are so close to Turgon and love their lord, etc. Otherwise...what we are trying to say in this scene gets muddied. If we don't know who these people are or why they're attempting to save Turgon, it's not really clear what we should think about them; they're just there. The relationship between Fingolfin and Turgon is well-established and clear, in contrast.

But the most compelling reason was that Elenwë's death is a direct result of the decision to cross the Grinding Ice. We are literally showing the ice bucking up and tipping her into the freezing sea. Whose decision was it to cross the Ice? Fingolfin. And so, showing his reaction to his daughter-in-law's death is also important. Eventually hearing Turgon blame Fëanor and *not* his own father for this tragedy will make more sense if we see Fingolfin here, saving Turgon from sharing Elenwë's fate and mourning her loss with his son.

Glorfindel is still there. Time passes in this scene. So, we have the initial accident, where Turgon is alone with Elenwë and Idril; the grinding ice has separated them from their traveling companions, so that Turgon is standing alone when he makes the desperate bid to save his daughter. Once he rescues Idril, his immediate companions have reached the site of the accident - he can pass Idril off to them and dive back in to save Elenwë, despite their cries of protest. Someone will need to be there to wrap a blanket around Idril in this scene. It might be Aredhel; it might be Glorfindel. I don't know. But then when he comes up empty-handed, clearly suffering from hypothermia, now everyone is standing around silently, knowing that hope is lost - there is no sign of Elenwë. So when he turns back to the water, to jump in again...that's when Fingolfin (who arrived sometime during all of this commotion) steps in and intervenes.



I agree with Nick that the most obvious place to introduce Glorfindel and Ecthelion will be in Nevrast, when Turgon has established his court. But if Glorfindel were to wrap a blanket around Idril in this scene and look on her with pity, that wouldn't be a bad thing.

 

[Faelivrin]

Yes, Nick already convinced me it should be Fingolfin doing the significant emotional thing. I don't disagree anymore. I was only trying to describe why I think it's still a good idea to also do this other thing in the background of Season 3:

Throughout Seasons 1 and 2 we have noted that there are characters in the background whom we will bring forward as they become more important.

and continue doing that in Seasons 3-5. But it looks like you are both OK with doing that.

 

[cellardur]

I think MithLuin's reasoning has completely swayed me. It makes perfect sense, but I would argue that Glorfindel is a bigger character than most. It's Glorfindel who will play a huge role in the Third Age and possibly even the Second Age (if we go with Tolkien's later intentions to have him arrive in the Second Age). Glorfindel is also tied to Turgon's family throughout the story whether it be saving Earendil, fighting in the Last Alliance, helping the Kings or Arnor or just assisting Aragorn and the rangers.