Session 3.15 - S3Ep10: Battle under Stars
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
ForthDauntless3
Member
As far as the combat ability of the balrogs, I did have the idea that Feanor should be able to contend with one in single combat. I'm not suggesting that he should just roll over it, but we do know that Glorfindel is able to kill a balrog in single combat before succumbing to his wounds and the nearby precise. Maybe Feanor is slightly more powerful than the first balrog he encounters and is getting the upper hand when the others come to help?
Brian Dimmick
Active Member
While we can't show balrogs as being easy to kill, I am a little concerned about going too far the other way--we don't want them to be so powerful that nobody can stand against them. Otherwise whenever one showed up in battle they would simply mow everyone down or the hosts would flee. I can see a distinction between actually being able to ill a balrog (very, very, very hard) and being able to hold one's own or even drive off a balrog (still very difficult, but possible for the strongest elves). When a balrog shows up one (or more) of the strongest elven fighters can battle him to something of a draw for a while while the rest of the army can be occupied doing something else. It takes your best fighters out of action against the host of orcs or other fell beasts, but it can be done. But you can't kill a balrog, and eventually even the strongest elf will fall.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
I thought Glorfindel was killed when the balrog dragged him into an abyss. Perhaps Feanor is a match for the first balrog and the time he takes in dueling it is the time taken for the others to arrive.
Ecthelion stabbed Gothmog with his helmet, and dragged them both into the bottomless well/fountain together.
Glorfindel fought and they both went over the cliff; the Eagles recovered Glorfindel's body.
Gandalf took the bridge out from under Durin's Bane, only for it to drag him down into the abyss with him. After hitting the water at the bottom, they both climbed to the mountain peak, where Gandalf threw it off - again.
Essentially, these things are not easy to kill, and simply fighting one with a sword (even a fancy sword) doesn't get you very far.
But...it's also possible that they're not particularly amazing at killing elves, so just because you can't get many meaningful hits in against them, doesn't mean they can strike a killing blow, either. So, it may be possible to 'hold your own' against one balrog, if you are a very skilled defensive fighter.
Fëanor...is pretty much the opposite of a defensive fighter. He's all offense. So, he's going for the kill...but not successfully. As for why the balrogs don't kill him....well, they do wound him, severely. But he just keeps fighting, so maybe they don't even realize their strikes are doing any damage.
Glorfindel fought and they both went over the cliff; the Eagles recovered Glorfindel's body.
Gandalf took the bridge out from under Durin's Bane, only for it to drag him down into the abyss with him. After hitting the water at the bottom, they both climbed to the mountain peak, where Gandalf threw it off - again.
Essentially, these things are not easy to kill, and simply fighting one with a sword (even a fancy sword) doesn't get you very far.
But...it's also possible that they're not particularly amazing at killing elves, so just because you can't get many meaningful hits in against them, doesn't mean they can strike a killing blow, either. So, it may be possible to 'hold your own' against one balrog, if you are a very skilled defensive fighter.
Fëanor...is pretty much the opposite of a defensive fighter. He's all offense. So, he's going for the kill...but not successfully. As for why the balrogs don't kill him....well, they do wound him, severely. But he just keeps fighting, so maybe they don't even realize their strikes are doing any damage.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Glorfindel was taken with the balrog when it fell, dragging him by the hair.
By the way, what did we decide on Glorfindel for characterization? Will we follow the books in that he was reluctant to leave Valinor (this does play a role in the fact that he returns to life earlier than most and is allowed to return to Middle-Earth as an emissary.)?
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Sword doesn’t even have to be fancy, per se, right?
Good question! But thus far, the only three balrogs are killed by: warriors of Gondolin, and an Istari with a sword from Gondolin. Depending on what decisions we make regarding Gondolin's weapons technology (they've got the fancy glow-in-the-presence-of-evil swords, too), we might decide that they do indeed do something special that allows them to wound a balrog, the way Merry's sword was specially designed to wound the Witch-king.
It also will be necessary to satisfactorily wrap up our Gothmog-Sauron rivalry, which implies Sauron having some role in his death. So...we'll likely be making those special swords (or special pointed helmets, or whatever).
*IF* we decide to slay any balrogs outside of Gondolin or without Gondolin weapons present, then we will have to come up with some other explanation.
It also will be necessary to satisfactorily wrap up our Gothmog-Sauron rivalry, which implies Sauron having some role in his death. So...we'll likely be making those special swords (or special pointed helmets, or whatever).
*IF* we decide to slay any balrogs outside of Gondolin or without Gondolin weapons present, then we will have to come up with some other explanation.
There is no reason not to follow the books, so we should do so.
ForthDauntless3
Member
I wanted to save the following thought for the episode discussion, but we didn't get to Feanor's fight with the Balrogs:
We want the balrogs to be terrifying boss characters who are very hard to injure or destroy, but we have to be careful not to make them too tankish. We need some way for the Feanoreans to injure the balrogs enough to drive them off without killing any of them. How can we accomplish this without violating the rule that one needs some type of special weapon—and possibly a deep chasm—in order to successfully battle a balrog?
We want the balrogs to be terrifying boss characters who are very hard to injure or destroy, but we have to be careful not to make them too tankish. We need some way for the Feanoreans to injure the balrogs enough to drive them off without killing any of them. How can we accomplish this without violating the rule that one needs some type of special weapon—and possibly a deep chasm—in order to successfully battle a balrog?
Hm. Feanor might have had neither... he did forge his sword and his sons' swords, so they might count as "special". He knew nothing of Balrogs, but he sincerely thought he was going to personally fight and kill Morgoth (LOL)*, so he would have tried to enchant his sword to be as amazing and demon-bane-y as possible.
Or maybe those requirements are only so strict when we actually kill a Balrog?
* When Feanor sees Vaire's tapestry in Mandos depicting Fingolfin personally duelling and wounding Morgoth, he's going to hate his half-brother even more!
Or maybe those requirements are only so strict when we actually kill a Balrog?
* When Feanor sees Vaire's tapestry in Mandos depicting Fingolfin personally duelling and wounding Morgoth, he's going to hate his half-brother even more!
For the curious, here is how the balrog math went down:
Morgoth will always keep some balrogs with him as a personal bodyguard. He will remain fearful of an imminent attack from the Valar for a long time, and he is 'saving' his best soldiers for that.
TWO balrogs will survive the War of Wrath. Durin's bane and another balrog will mysteriously vanish. We may never learn what happened to the other one.
Two balrogs (including Gothmog) will die in Gondolin. Three balrogs will die in the War of Wrath.
Aegnor will be killed by a balrog in the Battle of Sudden Flame. Corey has mentioned this before, explicitly wanting his death to be significant and not just a generic death in battle. However...will he kill the balrog who takes him out? Fëanor and Fingon will be killed by balrogs without eliminating them. Also, will the adventures of Earendil include him fighting a balrog far afield? Or, rather, not Earendil personally, but one of his faithful companions?
Both Trish and Dave were in favor of a total of nine balrogs. They seemed to think that more was better, and that if we have a limited number to work with, it's better not to limit ourselves too much. But they did want there to be some basic rules - seldom would we see more than one balrog in a fight at the same time (a few major battles are the exceptions). A balrog appearing on screen means that somebody is going to die - ALWAYS. We want the audience to know why Gandalf reacts with the dread he does in Moria - they know this means Gandalf is going to die, and the only question is whether or not he takes the balrog down with him. Balrogs kill named characters; they do not mow down grunts. The comparison to baseball-bat-wielding Sauron from the opening Last Alliance sequence in Peter Jackson's films is to be avoided.
Morgoth will always keep some balrogs with him as a personal bodyguard. He will remain fearful of an imminent attack from the Valar for a long time, and he is 'saving' his best soldiers for that.
TWO balrogs will survive the War of Wrath. Durin's bane and another balrog will mysteriously vanish. We may never learn what happened to the other one.
Two balrogs (including Gothmog) will die in Gondolin. Three balrogs will die in the War of Wrath.
Aegnor will be killed by a balrog in the Battle of Sudden Flame. Corey has mentioned this before, explicitly wanting his death to be significant and not just a generic death in battle. However...will he kill the balrog who takes him out? Fëanor and Fingon will be killed by balrogs without eliminating them. Also, will the adventures of Earendil include him fighting a balrog far afield? Or, rather, not Earendil personally, but one of his faithful companions?
Both Trish and Dave were in favor of a total of nine balrogs. They seemed to think that more was better, and that if we have a limited number to work with, it's better not to limit ourselves too much. But they did want there to be some basic rules - seldom would we see more than one balrog in a fight at the same time (a few major battles are the exceptions). A balrog appearing on screen means that somebody is going to die - ALWAYS. We want the audience to know why Gandalf reacts with the dread he does in Moria - they know this means Gandalf is going to die, and the only question is whether or not he takes the balrog down with him. Balrogs kill named characters; they do not mow down grunts. The comparison to baseball-bat-wielding Sauron from the opening Last Alliance sequence in Peter Jackson's films is to be avoided.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
So if Morgoth keeps balrogs around him, does Luthien knock them out too when she and Beren come for the Silmaril?
How about for the Nirnaeth Arnoediad that Gothmog takes out Fingon’s bodyguard single-handedly?
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
At least two are present at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad; Gothmog and another that ties up Fingon with his whip before Gothmog cuts open Fingon’s head.
Wouldn’t it be great if that other one is Durin’s bane?
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
It would. I once had thoughts that Durin’s Bane was Gothmog’s second-in-command or something.
The_Singing_Fox
Member
Having Earendil kill a Balrog might work. I mean, he is the biggest deal of the first age, and in Tolkien's earlier writings he was supposed to do all kinds of things, such as killing Ungoliant and so on. Even though he won't do this in our version, we should show that he is really awesome.