Session 3.15 - S3Ep10: Battle under Stars

If Morgoth keeps 2 as a bodyguard at all times, then only 7 are in the field at any time.

I would say that Balrogs kill named characters and they mow down nameless soldiers as well.

I am not in favor of requiring 2 additional non-Gondolin Balrog deaths. One would be enough, and 5 can die in the War of Wrath.
 
If Morgoth keeps 2 as a bodyguard at all times, then only 7 are in the field at any time.

I would say that Balrogs kill named characters and they mow down nameless soldiers as well.

I am not in favor of requiring 2 additional non-Gondolin Balrog deaths. One would be enough, and 5 can die in the War of Wrath.
Would the two with Morgoth be subdued by Luthien when she and Bree come for the Silmaril?
 
I think they have to be, if he has a constant bodyguard who never ever leave his side*. If she can put Morgoth to sleep, she can do it to Balrogs too.

*Except they won't be there when he fights Fingolfin.
 
*Except they won't be there when he fights Fingolfin.
They won't be participating when he fights Fingolfin. I for one can easily imagine balrogs, arms crossed like bar bouncers, standing between the dueling ground and the doors to Angband. We could even leave it vague if they're there to make sure no one takes the opportunity to break into the stronghold or to make sure Morgoth doesn't turn tail and run.
 
They won't be participating when he fights Fingolfin. I for one can easily imagine balrogs, arms crossed like bar bouncers, standing between the dueling ground and the doors to Angband. We could even leave it vague if they're there to make sure no one takes the opportunity to break into the stronghold or to make sure Morgoth doesn't turn tail and run.
Or they go to the entrance of Angband, with the duel taking place in a courtyard, to emphasize that Fingolfin will die there?
 
Good episode! I really like giving Huan his moment with the wargs.

I like the discussion of the various Feanorian sons' personalities. I think two of them could use some more work.

Caranthir could be more of a loose cannon. We don't have a lot of characters like that. Caranthir could inherit that part of Feanor's personality that causes him to burn the ships.

Amras could be more interesting. We have to remember that we have to apply elf-psychology and not human-psychology to the character. Does he react to the death (see below) of Amrod like a human twin would? Maybe he could turn into a drunk.


Disregard remainder of this post if you have an aversion to dead horse beating.

Regarding Amrod:
I'd like to reiterate that my stance is that Amrod dying in one of the burning ships is a mistake. Furthermore, showing the death on screen during the burning (or hearing screams) is worse. Now we're twisting in the wind to find out what to do with Amras as a consequence of Amrod's unnecessary death (what mighty webs we weave). In total, I think killing Amrod in this way takes a lot more away from the story than what we are adding. Some points:

1. Putting Amrod's death on the ships is is supposed to show immediate consequences to the Feanorians for breaking the Oath. This undermines the Feanorians' zeal for taking the Oath in the first place. They don't reaffirm the Oath because they're afraid of what happened to Amrod. They want to avenge Feanor. They want the Silmarils. I think it would work best for the sons of Feanor to be united in their zeal for the Silmarils until after Feanor's death. The catalyst for their interpersonal conflicts will be the arrival of Fingolfin's host and Maedhros's desire to make peace.

2. Cirdan's reaction is a tool to show how bad the burning of the ships is, but it's not strong enough to compete with a dead character. It won't work.

3. How do we show the Oath's effect on the Noldor? We just tell as much as possible of the story as it is written. It will make sense in the long run.

4. How do we voice the Oath as a motivation for the characters? I think this is the best reason to kill off Amrod here. We need to show why the sons of Feanor decide to attack the Beleriand refugees at the havens in season 24, and why Maedhros and Maglor steal the Silmarills after the War of Wrath in Season 47. However, I don't think killing Amrod accidentally actually accomplishes this. What Maedhros and Maglor fear isn't death, but something worse. If Maedhros thought that he could escape the Oath by dying, he would jump off a cliff. I don't know the answer to this issue, though, but I think we can come up with something less destructive to the story than Amrod's death on the ships. For example, the book accomplishes this partly using dialog. This ought to translate to the screen. We have multiple seasons of episodes to establish this, though, so we don't have to do it with a bang.

5. What do we do with Amrod and Amras? They don't do anything in the book, so it might work to kill them off. But it would be much better to do it in a way that doesn't undermine the story we're trying to tell. For instance, we have been talking about spending time expanding on tantalizing sections of the book that Tolkien never finished such as the voyages of Earendil. Why not make them characters in these parts of the story? For example, the "Of Beleriand and its Realms" season could use some conflict. Why not put Amrod's rebellion there? We could have Caranthir kill him. Or since we don't have anything for Sauron do to after Beren and Luthien, why not have a story involving Amrod and Sauron? Or we could just keep them alive. Not every character needs to be interesting. Or we could just save their deaths for some time we need someone to die.

There is still time to repent! Let Amrod live past Feanor's death. We can find a way. Don't let our bloodlust ruin the rest of Feanor's sons' character arcs!

And if we must keep it in, for the love of all that's good, don't show the death on screen or let the audience or any characters hear Amrod's cries. No amount of Cirdan emoting could overcome this, even if he were played by Charlton Heston himself! What might work is if there is no evidence at all of what happened to Amrod. This would leave the characters open to speculation and doubt.
 
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Killing Amros too, that would mess things up.

Killing Amrod does not make his brothers think suicide would save them from the Oath. That’s the opposite of how we scripted it. They, especially Amros, are terrified that by trying to go back he did damn himself to the Void. If he didn’t go to the Void, they think it’s only because he was stopped (by other people) before he could sail away. It strongly reinforces their belief that suicide (without a Silmaril in hand) would guarantee they go to the Void. It shows that conviction to the audience.

We can make Caranthir a loose cannon. He’s not in control of his temper, that’s for sure. I can’t believe he’d purposely kill his brother, but he should shoot off his mouth at all the wrong times.

What else can Caranthir do as a loose cannon? He somehow gets the trade routes with the Dwarves... how? Can he alienate them early on, then later reap the benefits of Amros being unfriendly to them and not letting them travel thru his southern territory? But Amros’ motivation needs to be that Curufin is already trading with them.

Annoying the Dwarves isn’t loose cannon enough. What else can he do?

Things that alienate potential allies is the go-to Feanorian faux pas, and Caranthir allies with Ulfang ... I think that alienation might be better as part of the Curse than having the bad luck to pick the Mortals who had joined Morgoth already. He maybe says or writes something awful to Thingol and/or Dior as well.
 
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I’ve heard some fans speculate that Caranthir has an inferiority complex. He’s rather nondescript compared with his siblings; Maedhros is the eldest and Feanor’s heir, Maglor’s a great singer and poet, Celegorm is the best hunter and was good enough to receive Huan, Curufin is their father’s favorite, and then there’s the twins.
 
Would the two with Morgoth be subdued by Luthien when she and Bree come for the Silmaril?
I think it would be a good idea and help show what a remarkable feat Luthien accomplished.

Regarding the Balrogs, has a decision been made on if anyone elses kills them? I like the idea agreed upon that every time a Balrog shows up someone dies. However, I think it adds to the story if no elf has ever managed to kill a Balrog. Feanor, Fingon, possibly Aegnor and Angrod, but every elf to face a Balrog dies. Then when Ecthelion faces Gothmog and is getting badly wounded we can be shocked when he pulls off the impossible and actually manages to kill a Balrog.

Also if a Balrogs are to die in the War of Wrath can we save one for Finarfin, especially if Balrogs have killed his two sons.
 
Regarding the Balrogs, has a decision been made on if anyone elses kills them?
Not yet.

Also if a Balrogs are to die in the War of Wrath can we save one for Finarfin, especially if Balrogs have killed his two sons.
But then he'd have to die -- we seem to have settled on a rule that you can't kill a Balrog without being killed, and I don't want to loosen that restriction. I would prefer Finarfin to survive and return to Valinor while alive (rather than being reincarnated after the War) because I want to see him talk to Galadriel after the War, urging her to come home, with her refusing.
 
Not yet.

But then he'd have to die -- we seem to have settled on a rule that you can't kill a Balrog without being killed, and I don't want to loosen that restriction. I would prefer Finarfin to survive and return to Valinor while alive (rather than being reincarnated after the War) because I want to see him talk to Galadriel after the War, urging her to come home, with her refusing.
Are there any other named or prominent characters who remained in Valinor ?
 
Depends who you mean by "prominent" but named characters who either didn't rebel, or turned back with Finarfin, are Nerdanel, Mahtan, Findis, Anaire, Earwen, and Rumil. Also Curufin's unnamed wife.
 
Depends who you mean by "prominent" but named characters who either didn't rebel, or turned back with Finarfin, are Nerdanel, Mahtan, Findis, Anaire, Earwen, and Rumil. Also Curufin's unnamed wife.
Out of all of those, the only one I personally like is Findis. We could have a wrathful Findis when she finds out about the death of all Finwe's descendants.

Speaking of Findis, do we have the ancestry of Glorfindel? I was looking at the Shibboleth of Feanor. It outlines how Turgon dives into the sea to save Idril and Elenwe, but only manages to save his daughter. It also mentions how Glorfindel only left, because of his close kinship to Turgon, but he is also 'an elf-lord of house of princes.' Could we make Glorfindel both Findis's grandson AND Elenwe's nephew. Elenwe and Glorfindel's mothers could be sisters. We could then establish Idril and Glorfindel being as close as siblings.
 
Ingwë's son Ingwion is named as someone who participates in the War of Wrath, but of course we never introduced him in Season 2.


We have not yet introduced Glorfindel in the story. Of course he's there - he's on the Helcaraxë with Turgon right now - but we don't have any scene or dialogue for him yet in this series. So...his parentage is certainly not yet specified!
 
I'm annoyed that Findis and Irime Lalwende were never given children in any genealogy. I assumed Findis' children stayed behind with the Vanyar but they ought to have been named, since they presumably had relationships with their cousins. Irime joined the rebellion, so where are her kids? I wish Tolkien had made Arakano her son instead of Fingolfin's.

Making Glorfindel a descendant of Findis (or Irime) is a novel suggestion but we could do it. We would have to retroactively decide on his immediate parentage and where those parents would appear as background characters. They wouldn't need to have lines in Season 2 (Galadriel's brothers don't!) and presumably couldn't be included in the Rebellion.

Oh but we can give him a scene in Episode 10. Act 4 ends with somebody physically holding Turgon back from diving again into the water after Elenwe's body after he's blue in the face. I don't think that the princes all bunched together with each other, rather I think each led a group of people who they were responsible for. So instead of a relative or a random unnamed extra, Glorfindel can be holding Turgon back.

Glorfindel is awesome.
 
But what would be the harm about showing him in Ep 10? He might have a few lines but I doubt we'd even name him, certainly not put any focus on him. Then the keen-eyed might recognize him later in Season 4.
 
The harm would be introducing characters that do not benefit the story so late in the season, and taking screen time away from important moments in episodes that will already require extremely tight writing.
 
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