Session 3.16 - S3Ep11: The Making of the Sun and the Moon

Well I'm sure we don't have to get into specifics about the passing of time. We could probably jump to another location and a different story thread or several and it wouldn't have to be clear whether they happen at the same time as Fëanor dies, or not. I'm not saying Fëanor should not die at the end of the episode, I'm saying he doesn't have to. (But just as we can jump to other stories after his death, we can begin with other things, like the Valar etc and then return to Fëanor and end the episode)
 
I'd rather focus on telling a good, solid story with the Noldor (with events in the proper order when possible, see below) than take time out to include a story which, though cool and exciting, isn't directly connected to the rest of the plot.
I have heard many people complain that the Valar sit around idle for much of the Silmarillion, usually because they (the "readers") have not paid attention to what is going on behind the scenes.

Should we not be showing them that the Valar are paying attention but that this "not breaking the world apart" stuff is really difficult—not to mention there's other people than the Noldor who have tales to tell?

Another thing I have heard people say is that the Vanyar and Lindar (which I prefer to "Teleri" as it's what they called themselves) also sat around doing not very much, but in my opinion this is because we are getting the story via Noldorin storytellers. There has to have been some lead up to their participation in the War of Wrath: the triumphant arrival of the Vanyar—and the remaining Noldor in Aman—and the refusal of the Lindar to do anything more than provide transport. Do we have anything whatsoever to go on to fill in the gaps? (All together now: what have I been missing? :p)
 
I have heard many people complain that the Valar sit around idle for much of the Silmarillion, usually because they (the "readers") have not paid attention to what is going on behind the scenes.

Should we not be showing them that the Valar are paying attention but that this "not breaking the world apart" stuff is really difficult—not to mention there's other people than the Noldor who have tales to tell?

Another thing I have heard people say is that the Vanyar and Lindar (which I prefer to "Teleri" as it's what they called themselves) also sat around doing not very much, but in my opinion this is because we are getting the story via Noldorin storytellers. There has to have been some lead up to their participation in the War of Wrath: the triumphant arrival of the Vanyar—and the remaining Noldor in Aman—and the refusal of the Lindar to do anything more than provide transport. Do we have anything whatsoever to go on to fill in the gaps? (All together now: what have I been missing? :p)
I believe the reason why they sat idle was because they made clear that the Noldor would have no help against Morgoth, save for Ulmo's prophecy concerning Gondolin.
 
It is true that they make it clear that they are honoring the Noldor's wishes to rebel by not hovering like overprotective guardians.

But it is also true that we spent an entire season with the Valar, so our audience deserves a Valar-centric send off. This episode, the making of the Sun and Moon, will likely be the last time we see the story from their viewpoint in a long while. We don't want to squander that.

I agree that we don't want to give them a do-nothing vibe. Their seeming non-intervention needs to be for a clear reason.

As for integrating the shadow - demon attack into the cosmology, the suggestion was made in the session that these can be the future original dragons.
 
Amros can't get time alone with Feanor, that's right. But he can say something and be shushed by his older brothers.

Then we can have Feanor's vision.

I thought in one of the texts (maybe Grey Annals?) he also warns them never to treat with Morgoth.

So would the episode end on Feanor’s death? And the next episode open with an envoy from Angband? Because in the Silmarillion it’s mentioned that the envoy that leads to Maedhros’ imprisonment comes within an hour of Feanor’s death.
The parley negotiations should at least start in this episode.

I think Feanor should die at the very start of the epsode. Then we have more ability to get the parley done this episode. If we can get all the way to Maedhros' capture in this episode, there's time to do a dramatic attack on the Moon (or other demon vs. Tilion fight) in episode 12.

Killing off a major character in Act 1 will also be a dramatic shock to the viewers, and a warning that anyone can die in this show, at any time. (After all, we'll kill nearly every major character.)



The difficulty with the Valar sitting idle is a real one. As a reader I've wondered "what were they doing?" Part of it is that they don't want to cause a zillion innocent deaths by destroying an inhabited subcontinent, so they wait until all the free Elves and Men have been driven out onto the Isle of Balar. Part of it is that the Noldor demanded the right to fight Morgoth without help. But that's not a good reason to abandon the innocent Sindar, Laiquendi, Dwarves, and Edain.

During the Siege of Angband, the Noldor did effectively keep Beleriand's inhabitants mostly protected. Ulmo (with Manwe's knowledge and permission) helps establish safe havens at Gondolin and Nargothrond, while Melian keeps Doriath safe. But again, that isn't any help to the Falathrim, Dwarves, Dorthonion, and Hithlum/Dor-lomin. The folk of Dorthonion can retreat to Nargothrond and the Falathrim can retreat to the Isle of Balar and Mouths of Sirion (protected by Ulmo) but the Valar aren't trying to prevent all possible deaths, or losses of their homes.

After the Dagor Bragollach in 455, it was 90 years of widespread slaughter before 545 when the Valar started the War of Wrath. So, from their perspective, 90 years was short and perhaps they didn't need to do anything until then. They did send warnings to Turgon and Orodreth, who ignored them. Ulmo continued to protect the Havens and Balar.

So the Valar were doing things at some of the most desperate moments, but the viewers may still feel they aren't doing enough. A ton of people die, and not just Rebels and Feanorians. It doesn't help that both the book and our series will spend only a comparatively short time on the Siege of Angband, and a whole lot of time on the Dagor Bragollach and the 90 years of destruction after.

I do think that in this episode we can show the council of the Valar deciding not to directly attack Melkor, specifically to avoid destroying an inhabited subcontinent and especially because they have no idea where Men will awake, but know it will happen soon and don't want to kill them. We can discuss Melian, talk about sending Eagles (but not show it happening), and vaguely foreshadow Ulmo's later actions.

I'll reread the HoME 10 text about their motivations.
EDIT: So, there's the literary symbolism of Manwe not personally fighting in any battle (not even the War of Wrath) until the End, because then you can keep "the issue of any particular event... in literary suspense."
Fighting Morgoth required a much vaster destruction: "Unless swiftly successful, War against him might well end in reducing all Middle-earth to chaos, possibly even all Arda." because Morogth had spread his will and power into the whole Earth. "Arda could only be liberated by a physical battle; but a probable result of such a battle was the irretrievable ruin of Arda."
"[T]he heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged ... without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction." And keeping him occupied with only a small physical fraction of Middle-earth, leaving the rest unmolested.

"The last intervention with physical force by the Valar, ending in the breaking of Thangorodrim, may then be viewed as not in fact reluctant or even unduly delayed, but timed with precision. The intervention came before the annihilation of the Eldar and the Edain. Morgoth ... had neglected most of Middle-earth ... " and Morgoth had finally reduced himself in power to the point that he could be physically defeated without destroying (for example) all of Europe or Eurasia. He had also by then lost control over the parts of his spirit he had invested in the matter of Middle-earth.

The Hiding of Valinor: "It is possible to view this as, if not an actually bad action, at least as a mistaken one. Ulmo disapproved of it." But closing Valinor against the Rebels was "just."

As for integrating the shadow - demon attack into the cosmology, the suggestion was made in the session that these can be the future original dragons.
But it's more likely that Glaurung and the other dragons were made with fire demons, not shadow demons.

Why is it difficult for shadow demons to just exist as themselves? If the viewers will wonder what happened to them after Tilion chased them off, and we don't want them to keep chasing him in the sky and cause ecplipses, they can come back to Angband and appear in another episode, one of the battles. There need not be more than 2-3 of them anyway. If they were sent as scouts (more likely) rather than advance guards expected to fight the Valar (extremely unlikely) they also need not be very powerful. Tilion can completely overpower them.
 
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Why is it difficult for shadow demons to just exist as themselves? If the viewers will wonder what happened to them after Tilion chased them off, and we don't want them to keep chasing him in the sky and cause ecplipses, they can come back to Angband and appear in another episode, one of the battles. There need not be more than 2-3 of them anyway. If they were sent as scouts (more likely) rather than advance guards expected to fight the Valar (extremely unlikely) they also need not be very powerful. Tilion can completely overpower them.
I have to say that I really liked everything in this post but I must comment on this passage. I would like the shadow spirits to be totally independent, not sent by Morgoth. He does wait for a Valar attack and I guess he could give a few shadows a scouting mission but I’d like them to be more or less mindless, or acting almost like a swarm of insects that Tilion happens to come across and upset. I think they should be forgotten shade beasts who have strayed since the war on Utumno.
 
I have to say that I really liked everything in this post but I must comment on this passage. I would like the shadow spirits to be totally independent, not sent by Morgoth. He does wait for a Valar attack and I guess he could give a few shadows a scouting mission but I’d like them to be more or less mindless, or acting almost like a swarm of insects that Tilion happens to come across and upset. I think they should be forgotten shade beasts who have strayed since the war on Utumno.


I can tell you that from a story-telling perspective, this is difficult, because it seems like we are manufacturing drama for Tilion with these spirits we have not mentioned before, nor will ever again. Mostly because that's what we're doing. It seems a bit sloppy. Fortunately, nothing has been filmed, so if we retroactively add them into the story, we're good. We just need a story for them.
 
If we want the shadow-spirits to be independent of Morgoth, then they will have to be related to the patches of darkness that Ungoliant left behind while crossing the Helcaraxë. I dunno if they'd be eating her webs or living in them, but yeah, that's the most straightforward context. Doesn't explain anything, though, so I'd hesitate to go there. 'Independent evil creatures who don't serve Morgoth' won't be a note we hit very often.

Not all dragons are fire-breathing (just as not all dragons are winged), so I'm not sure that shadow-demon is the worst idea for what Glaurung would look like before he was Glaurung.

As for the timing, I wouldn't worry overly much about it. If we show Fëanor's death early in the episode, we can cut to Valinor for most of the episode. If we then come back to the Fëanoreans at the end, it can be an 'as if no time has passed at all' situation.
 
If we want the shadow-spirits to be independent of Morgoth, then they will have to be related to the patches of darkness that Ungoliant left behind while crossing the Helcaraxë. I dunno if they'd be eating her webs or living in them, but yeah, that's the most straightforward context. Doesn't explain anything, though, so I'd hesitate to go there. 'Independent evil creatures who don't serve Morgoth' won't be a note we hit very often.

Not all dragons are fire-breathing (just as not all dragons are winged), so I'm not sure that shadow-demon is the worst idea for what Glaurung would look like before he was Glaurung.

As for the timing, I wouldn't worry overly much about it. If we show Fëanor's death early in the episode, we can cut to Valinor for most of the episode. If we then come back to the Fëanoreans at the end, it can be an 'as if no time has passed at all' situation.
If not all dragons are fire-breathing, do we have an ice-breathing dragon?
 
I guess I won’t fight for independent shadow spirits...

As for different types of dragons or wyrms, I believe a kill nd that spews poison would work. Not sure it would be based on an elemental Maia, there could be other types of demons (and we don’t really have to show their exact origins).
 
I guess I won’t fight for independent shadow spirits...

As for different types of dragons or wyrms, I believe a kill nd that spews poison would work. Not sure it would be based on an elemental Maia, there could be other types of demons (and we don’t really have to show their exact origins).
The idea was mainly for contrast. Besides, I can think of only one dragon in fiction that doesn’t breathe fire: the Bewilderbeast in How to Train Your Dragon 2.
 
All the Dragons in Arda either breathe fire, or don't have a "breath weapon" ("cold drake" apparently only means "not fiery", not ice or frost). And my surmise is that the ones who don't breathe fire are "cold" due to the slow waning of dragon might with the generations, and probably don't even exist in the First Age. There are not a variety of special elemental dragons like in D&D.

I'm sure that they all have venomous bites and poisonous blood, and maybe every one of them leaves a horrible slime trail, but I wouldn't expect any to be able to spit poison. When Glaurung finished telepathically messing with Nienor's mind, his inner fires were used up, which suggests to me that his inner being (spirit) was a fire spirit.

I don't want to mutate Morgoth's attack on Tilion in the sky into a swarm of independent monsters who have nothing whatever to do with Morgoth. If it isn't an attack by Morgoth, we should just drop the whole idea. Once it's that divorced from Tolkien's original concept, and from the plot, it doesn't have much point.


EDIT: It occurred to me that once they arrange the Sun and Moon and Hiding of Valinor, the Valar have a large collection of dead Teleri, Laiquendi, and Sinar to reincarnate. So that's another thing they'll be doing throughout the First Age, although I imagine there's a moratorium on reincarnating Noldor until after the War of Wrath.
 
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This is a TV show. Amras can't just be 'there' for 8 seasons and then finally speak up about the Oath when it comes time to attack the Havens. He will have to have a clear role throughout. It can be a minor role, as the youngest Fëanorean, just back up support or opposition to his more main character brothers. But that's why we have to think this through. I understand not wanting to invent a death for him right now (I don't want him to die this season). But if we keep him alive, we're going to be inventing plenty of scenes for him as we go along. He'll likely wind up saving one of his brother's lives in the Unnumbered Tears. He'll likely be the elf Finrod is visiting before his famous hunting trip where he discovered Men. And maybe other stuff that's completely off script that I haven't thought of yet. The point being... we need to figure out where he goes post-death-of-Amrod and what unique role he plays that his brothers do not. If we have nothing unique for him...that's not going to be good storytelling.

In my head the story of Amras to show the true tragedy of the Oath. He loses the person closest to him through it, and it then drives a wedge between him and his father and brothers. He regrets the oath, even if he doesn't actually renounce it, and tries to avoid its consequences. He fights in the major battles but otherwise tries to stay away from the machinations of his brothers. I also was thinking about him being overtaken by a sense of despair not for his own personal situation but for the Noldor as a whole. He realizes that the war against Morgoth is ultimately hopeless before the Siege of Angband ends (either because he figures it out himself or because he learns it from Feanor) and the elves are wasting their strength. (In this he is of course right, although his response to it doesn't help anyone). Maybe it is that despair that ultimately wears down his resistance to the oath and leads him to fulfill it at the Havens.

As for specific plot points, maybe Amras' actions in resisting the Oath ultimately helping to fulfill it. For example, after the Dagor Bragollach Celegorm and Curufin come south and want to settle with Amras, but he mistrusts them and drives them off. So they decide to go to Nargothrond instead, with all the evil that results. Or he has interactions with men that end up leading them to distrust the Noldor, contributing to betrayal.

Side question: Do the sons of Feanor each have a "host" of elves who follow them specifically and live with them? Do they divide that way before Feanor's death? If so, what happens to Amras' people? Would he actually live alone?
 
I'm sure that they all have venomous bites and poisonous blood, and maybe every one of them leaves a horrible slime trail, but I wouldn't expect any to be able to spit poison
Perhaps it’s because English isn’t my native language and I used the wrong word - the picture of a dragon spitting sure doesn’t seem right - I meant something else, more like exhaling poisonous fumes and having dripping poisonous saliva.

One more thing about my idea that the shadow spirits should be independent (an idea that I’m no longer arguing for): after the war on Utumno (where Melkor had gathered all sorts of spirits, beasts and powers), his people, his underlings and those more or less loyal to him were leaderless and without a realm. Some hid in Angband but a few probably strayed in other parts of Middle-earth. It would not be far fetched to assume that two or three of these were shades roaming the Helcaraxë (as we in fact have discussed earlier). Now, I do agree that an attack on the Moon (if we show it) should be ordered by Morgoth or clearly be an expression of his will, so again, I agree that these spirits should be under his command.
 
There are two separate opportunities here.

In one, there is a scene where Tilion (and possibly a few Maiar companions), go to the Helcaraxë to throw up the Northern Lights to support the Noldor in their trek to Middle Earth. We probably aren't going to want to see them 'painting' the aurora borealis in the sky, but they can encounter some sort of resistance or obstacle to their aid attempts. Enter the shadow-demons, and an action sequence of some sort demonstrating that Tilion is a hunter. During the hunt/chase scene, the northern lights spring up into the sky as planned, but it's less boring that watching people garden.

In another, Morgoth can send an attack against the Moon when it rises. He can *only* do this if he has winged servants who can fly that high. We do not want to be showing corporeal beings flying to the moon, so we would not want to use Thuringwethil for that. A shadow demon, on the other hand, might seem less far-fetched.

We can include both scenes - the shadow-demons are driven off in the first scene and return in the second, so we are now familiar with Tilion's foes. Or, we could include only one or neither if we don't want shadow-demons at all. We probably DON'T want shadow-demons if these are the only two scenes they will ever appear in. So....can anyone think of any future uses for shadow-demons in our story?

As for specific plot points, maybe Amras' actions in resisting the Oath ultimately helping to fulfill it. For example, after the Dagor Bragollach Celegorm and Curufin come south and want to settle with Amras, but he mistrusts them and drives them off. So they decide to go to Nargothrond instead, with all the evil that results. Or he has interactions with men that end up leading them to distrust the Noldor, contributing to betrayal.

Exactly - if we keep Amras around, we have to incorporate him into the story, show how his actions tie into others' actions.

Geographically, he will play a role in the coming of Men to Beleriand, simply based on where he lives. Tolkien does not mention him anywhere in that story, but...we would likely invent a role for him there. Or with the dwarf-trade. But his main story would have to be his interaction with his brothers.

So, yes, I know that Finrod is hunting with Maedhros and Maglor when he finds Beor. But I can think of an 'expanded' scene to set that up which involves Amras. So, Finrod comes to Amras' area of Beleriand to meet up with his brothers Maedhros and Maglor and go on a hunt. Maedhros and Maglor invite Amras to join them, hopeful that he will put aside his anger with their family long enough to do that much. Amras refuses. Disappointed, Maedhros and Maglor cut the hunt short and return to Amras, allowing Finrod to continue on and (eventually) meet Beor. Or something.

Alternatively, Amras could directly influence some of the Edain not to stay in East Beleriand, but to continue on to the West. We know why Haleth leaves, of course, but there's room for more story there.
 
If Amras takes a position apart from his brothers and in part actually in some kind of opposition (although he fights in the wars), and the Sindar still consider him a kinslayer (rightfully), and the descendants of Finarfin and Fingolfin have similar views of him, then he will become utterly lonely, with just some servants and soldiers, and each encounter will lead to either him rejecting people or others rejecting him. In the end, his only choice, his destiny, will be to accept the consequences of the Oath. The only way to free himself from the burden of the Oath is to join in the kinslayings. He could do this without really being into it, and he could be reluctant to use violence and be one who tries to convince Dior to hand over the Silmaril he carries. In contrast, other brothers, like Caranthir, can be more full of aggression and have no qualms about killing those who keep the Silmaril, even if they are elves. I think he would contain a crucial aspect of the problems of the Oath that the sons live with and it would certainly be a mistake to kill him before the third Kinslaying. He's the one who really wants out but sees no other way, he's on the one end of a continuum where Curufin, Celegorm or Caranthir is on the other end.
 
Turning momentarily to the Girdle part of the episode: do the bad guys know Melian is Queen in Doriath? If so, what (inadequate in hindsight) preparations does Mairon make for dealing with a fellow Maia among his enemies? I can’t imagine he’d just leave something like that out of his calculations. Or is her presence a surprise? If so, i imagine Tilvildo and Thuringwethil must get an earful about missing *that*.
 
Great question!

He could also know or sense that a Maia is there but don’t know who.
 
True, he doesn't need to know it's Melian, per se, but if he senses a fellow Maia, he's going to plan for that. Is Tivildo, perhaps, supposed to take the (presumed minor) Maia out, but chickens out when he sees how powerful she really is?
 
As much as I like the idea that Amras gets a moment alone with his father, I don't think it fits. I don't believe any one of the sons leaves him at this point. They should all be there. Amras could of course break and express his feelings about the Oath and say that the Doom of Mandos will break them all, but then I feel it has to be done with care and it should not take too much focus. Yes, we're thinking a lot about Amras right now and try to build his story, but at this moment, he isn't the most important character. Fëanor is. On the way away from the battle scene, Amras can let all his anger and dispair show and express his resentment. The older brothers silence him. Fëanor could give him a look but say nothing. Then he tells them to stop, and that he is dying and wants to look at Thangorodrim as he does so. He then has a vision of some sort - and I'm not sure we even have to show it, we could just see something in his eyes, some dispair, and then he reacts to it and his inner flame burns more intensely. He curses Morgoth and demands that his sons hold to the Oath. And so, his fire consumes him.

Amros can't get time alone with Feanor, that's right. But he can say something and be shushed by his older brothers.

Then we can have Feanor's vision.

Hmm. All the brothers being there could definitely work, too. But I would bring up something that I feel like we've been skimming over a whole lot: the scale of Beleriand, and the Northlands specifically.

I mean, the trip from Mithrim, over Eryd Wethrin, to the borders of Dor Daedeloth is not a trip of hours -- it's got to be a trip of days at least, maybe weeks, if the map isn't meaningless and the Elves of the First Age aren't actual giants. In the present circumstance, that's why I find it totally plausible that Amros could get time alone with Fëanor, even if we decide that he shouldn't as things actually play out. This scale business also plays into the battle itself, though (again -- Fëanor chasing the orcs over the mountains and across Ardh Galen is not something that happens in a single day). And this will be really important to remember as we think about battles like the Dagor Bragollach and Nirnaeth Arnoediad in the future. The Silmarillion completely collapses the scale of Beleriand to serve the epic tone (as it should!), but I don't think we can, can we? If it appears to take the Fëanorians only a few hours to get from Dor Daedeloth to the Eryd Wethrin, then the viewer must assume that either Beleriand is much smaller than Eriador, the Elves of the First Age move at super-speed, or Aragorn dawdled tremendously in getting the hobbits to Rivendell! (And some people are wanting the crossing of the Helcaraxë to last as much as a year, right?)

I know this is a tangential in some ways to this episode, and I'm sorry if this has been hashed through before -- I just can't remember people discussing it, and it seems like a big deal. (Honestly, more of a big deal for the battles than the question of "can Amros be alone with Fëanor" question, to me, though it applies to both.)



On an unrelated note, the idea of Tevildo being tasked with killing Melian is very amusing. I think Sauron must surely know that Melian is in Doriath -- it was hardly a secret, right? Maybe he just really underestimates how powerful Melian herself could be. To him, she might just be "the lady who spent time talking to birds in Lórien".
 
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