Session 3.16 - S3Ep11: The Making of the Sun and the Moon

...so,

The spiders take the Sindar by surprise. I don't even think the elves know of these creatures at all, so perhaps they will be a little bit scared initially. Most of the Sindar will be off fighting orcs in the First Battle, so the remaining elves will have a lot to do. I'm not sure how they do this, though. We have Melian, Luthien and Daeron. Will Beleg return at some point? Or is he somewhere else?

There should also be some cats.

Anyway, after this (whatever they do) has been going on for a while, the threat of the spiders becomes too great, they are too many and get too close, perhaps deep inside Menegroth, and this forces Melian to repel them with her magic Girdle. Does this make them run off, or just confuse them so that they are more easily killed?
 
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Haakon said:
I think this issue could deserve a little more attention.

I think, since the spider attack comes as a surprise, that there should be quite a lot of fighting, and that the spiders should be rather successful. (Ok gotta go, will return later today)
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Agreed. I really like the idea, which I think was yours, of Daeron making first contact with the spiders.

I also think that a big fight between Thingol's returning army and the spiders would be good as well.
 
Haakon said:
...so,

The spiders take the Sindar by surprise. I don't even think the elves know of these creatures at all, so perhaps they will be a little bit scared initially. Most of the Sindar will be off fighting orcs in the First Battle, so the remaining elves will have a lot to do. I'm not sure how they do this, though. We have Melian, Luthien and Daeron. Will Beleg return at some point? Or is he somewhere else?

There should also be some cats.

Anyway, after this (whatever they do) has been going on for a while, the threat of the spiders becomes too great, they are too many and get too close, perhaps deep inside Menegroth, and this forces Melian to repel them with her magic Girdle. Does this make them run off, or just confuse them so that they are more easily killed?
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Yeah, I think the basic logistics will get worked out as we go. As to the creation of the girdle.... Perhaps it does not expand instantly. It pushes out slowly enough for the spiders to flee from it.
 
I think that Thingol and his army will notice the spiders when the spiders escape from the Girdle and run from Doriath - they will run in many directions but those escaping to the east and to the south will run into the Sindar, who then fight them, and hunt down as many as they can.
 
Haakon said:
I think that Thingol and his army will notice the spiders when the spiders escape from the Girdle and run from Doriath - they will run in many directions but those escaping to the east and to the south will run into the Sindar, who then fight them, and hunt down as many as they can.
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The problem I have with this is it would be a mop-up scene. There is no drama; no one is really in danger. It also does not give Thingol anything to do between now and the Girdle-making.
 
Good point. The idea though would be that it is Melian who saves Menegroth, not Thingol, and if his army comes to Menegroth too soon, it will be easy to get the impression that he does it.
 
I too would like the idea of the spiders being unbeatable for the Sindar. This would put into perspective just how powerful they are or at least the strongest spiders. If we see or at least hear of Thingol/Mablung mowing down orcs and then they get to these spiders and are powerless against them, it emphasises the threat they are.

Maybe, we can have Thingol or Mablung kill a lesser spider, but be completely incapable of piercing Shelob's hide. When it's clear that the spiders are too great for even Thingol's army then Melian can step in and save the day, with an assist from Luthien and to a lesser extent Daeron.
 
Haakon said:
Good point. The idea though would be that it is Melian who saves Menegroth, not Thingol, and if his army comes to Menegroth too soon, it will be easy to get the impression that he does it.
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Yes. I think what I was envisioning is Thingol's army engaged in a losing battle against the spiders, and he is relieved by the Girdle.
 
cellardur said:
I too would like the idea of the spiders being unbeatable for the Sindar. This would put into perspective just how powerful they are or at least the strongest spiders. If we see or at least hear of Thingol/Mablung mowing down orcs and then they get to these spiders and are powerless against them, it emphasises the threat they are.

Maybe, we can have Thingol or Mablung kill a lesser spider, but be completely incapable of piercing Shelob's hide. When it's clear that the spiders are too great for even Thingol's army then Melian can step in and save the day, with an assist from Luthien and to a lesser extent Daeron.
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So these spiders should be in between the spiders from The Hobbit and Shelob?
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
So these spiders should be in between the spiders from The Hobbit and Shelob?
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I think so, because it makes sense that Shelob would be the one to survive.

The blade scored it with a dreadful gash, but those hideous folds could not be pierced by any strength of men, not though Elf or Dwarf should forge the steel or the hand of Beren or of Turin wield it. She yielded to the stroke, and then heaved up the great bag of her belly high above Sam’s head. Poison frothed and bubbled from the wound. Now splaying her legs she drove her huge bulk down on him again. Too soon. For Sam still stood upon his feet, and dropping his own sword, with both hands he held the elven-blade pointed upwards, fending off that ghastly roof; and so Shelob, with the driving force of her own cruel will, with strength greater than any warrior’s hand, thrust herself upon a bitter spike. Deep, deep it pricked, as Sam was crushed slowly to the ground.

This quote always made me think that it's actually something Beren tried.
 
cellardur said:
I think so, because it makes sense that Shelob would be the one to survive.

The blade scored it with a dreadful gash, but those hideous folds could not be pierced by any strength of men, not though Elf or Dwarf should forge the steel or the hand of Beren or of Turin wield it. She yielded to the stroke, and then heaved up the great bag of her belly high above Sam’s head. Poison frothed and bubbled from the wound. Now splaying her legs she drove her huge bulk down on him again. Too soon. For Sam still stood upon his feet, and dropping his own sword, with both hands he held the elven-blade pointed upwards, fending off that ghastly roof; and so Shelob, with the driving force of her own cruel will, with strength greater than any warrior’s hand, thrust herself upon a bitter spike. Deep, deep it pricked, as Sam was crushed slowly to the ground.

This quote always made me think that it's actually something Beren tried.
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So will we have spiders with stingers?
 
Just to point out, Shelob *is* a spawn of Ungoliant, so this is an entire army of attacking Shelob-spiders. Or, well, ravenous hunting Shelob-spiders. They're not really an army. So it's not just that we see elves get attacked/killed....it's that we see the spiders turn the forest of Doriath into a nest of webs with food stashed in it - live trapped elves. There can be some rescue attempts to get elves out of the webs, I think.

Tevildo and his cats have more intent - they want to seek out Menegroth, find a way in, kill the leader, etc. The spiders are just hungry, and were promised a good hunting ground with easy pickings. They don't care about politics or strategy or killing the leader or anything like that. They're intelligent, but they just really aren't actually recruited for a war.
 
MithLuin said:
Just to point out, Shelob *is* a spawn of Ungoliant, so this is an entire army of attacking Shelob-spiders. Or, well, ravenous hunting Shelob-spiders. They're not really an army. So it's not just that we see elves get attacked/killed....it's that we see the spiders turn the forest of Doriath into a nest of webs with food stashed in it - live trapped elves. There can be some rescue attempts to get elves out of the webs, I think.

Tevildo and his cats have more intent - they want to seek out Menegroth, find a way in, kill the leader, etc. The spiders are just hungry, and were promised a good hunting ground with easy pickings. They don't care about politics or strategy or killing the leader or anything like that. They're intelligent, but they just really aren't actually recruited for a war.
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So would the magic of Melian and Sauron colliding form "good hunting ground" for the spiders?
 
Plus: Should Shelob be able to speak? Her offspring in Mirkwood do, if one is wearing the One Ring. Maybe Sauron and Shelob establish some means of communication?...
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Plus: Should Shelob be able to speak? Her offspring in Mirkwood do, if one is wearing the One Ring. Maybe Sauron and Shelob establish some means of communication?...
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I think Shelob should have to be able to communicate in some form, she communicated with Gollum, even if it's just telepathically. By the way have we established that Elves are telepathic?
 
cellardur said:
I think Shelob should have to be able to communicate in some form, she communicated with Gollum, even if it's just telepathically. By the way have we established that Elves are telepathic?
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Galadriel and Finrod are at the very least.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Galadriel and Finrod are at the very least.
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I am not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean that only Galadriel and Finrod have been shown communicating with telepathy? Or do you mean that Galadriel and Finrod are the only Elves capable of this? If the latter all Elves and even the Numenoreans were capable of telepathich conversation.
 
cellardur said:
I am not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean that only Galadriel and Finrod have been shown communicating with telepathy? Or do you mean that Galadriel and Finrod are the only Elves capable of this? If the latter all Elves and even the Numenoreans were capable of telepathich conversation.
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They are the ones that i remember using telepathy.
 
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