I completely understand not having the time to talk about any outline proposal, what with the whole Amros thing, and I forgot that we hadn’t yet gotten permission to delay Fëanor’s death.
I do wholly agree that the Sun and Moon plot are of the greatest importance in Ep 11, and we will need at least one scene each for the Helkaraxe and the Council of the Valar, plus one more for the shadow demons vs. Tilion if we have that fight.
But, what I don’t understand right now is, why is it necessary to put the spider battle in Ep 11 instead of Ep 12? Can people here please explain why you are thinking the spider battle cannot begin in Ep 12? (Unless Corey explained why it
must be done that way, last Friday -- I did not find time to finish the whole podcast tonight.) To my mind, that time in Ep 11 could be better spent attempting to fit the parley into the episode. I request that we attempt to include as much of the parley as will fit when we script-outline Episode 11 – we can at least see how much can be shown.
So, certainly, we can talk about getting the parley started prior to the rising of the Moon here in Episode 12. As for your concern about timing, I imagine we will show Maedhros suffering from exposure and starvation while he hangs from Thangorodrim. But we don’t need to pin him up there immediately.
*nod* Certainly, if we really can’t fit it into Ep 11. Although, so far I do prefer Marielle’s idea to not show the actual chaining at all (neatly avoiding the logistical question of how it was done, and saving screentime), just have him already up there when the Moon rises and briefly show his reaction to the light. Or only his reaction to Fingolfin’s trumpets, which come so soon after the Moon rises. The rather short time between Moonrise and Fingolfin reaching Angband doesn’t really leave enough time for any part of Maedhros’ story to happen after Fingolfin arrives, not to mention how Fingolfin’s host would get involved somehow (and provoke a reaction from Maedhros) if they were already in Middle-earth while or before the parley was happening.
Nick can correct me if I’m mistaken (or totally out to lunch) about pacing here, but it seems to me that the Moon rising is by far THE most awesome and dramatic event in Episode 12, and it would be best to make it the last or penultimate scene in Act 4, with swelling music and a major scene-lighting change. Whatever else we do here, my current feeling is that the rest of the episode’s events, or nearly all of them, should happen before the Moon rises.
He won’t be rescued until next season.
True, but that is the very first thing next season, right?
About Argon:
It’s already been said here that he won’t exist in our story, but I wanted to say two additional things about the battle in Lammoth. It was one of Tolkien’s later ideas and I usually prefer those, but it is one that has two problems to my mind. One is simply the difficulty of cramming it into our very packed and squeezed season ending – possibly it could be fit into Episode 13, though for now I’m somewhat skeptical.
The other problem I see with the idea is more fundamental. Yes, it’s clear that Calaquendi can survive decades of starvation and/or extreme cold (though we are shortening the timeline for both the Helkaraxe and Maedhros, which makes both more believable) But for me, it’s a bigger stretch to imagine that the shivering, starved, bone-tired host of Fingolfin can win a battle against an Orc ambush, as handily and decisively as in that Lammoth Battle story, just a few hours after finally getting off of the Ice. It strains my sense of plausibility if they were not exhausted, unarmored, and in need of rest. In fact I think (in Ep 13) they probably should rest for a bit, and find some fresh food, before marching to Angband.
Valar discussion prompt:
In the Council of the Valar, Manwë’s final ruling is that they will almost never intervene with the Ñoldorin war effort which is doomed anyway, and will not make any direct attack that could either destroy a continent, wipe out the Second Children, or provoke Morgoth into blasting most life off of Arda. But during the Council, what will he and the other Valar say? Ulmo is going to be intervening, and Tolkien said that Manwë was aware of and allowed or approved of Ulmo’s actions throughout the First Age. Will that come up at the Council, or privately between the two of them? If the latter, will it be kept hidden from the audience so Ulmo’s interventions are a surprise? Will we mention the Eagles, or hint at/foreshadow them, or keep them a total surprise?
We are showing the Valar stepping back, and will complete that stepping back with the Hiding of Valinor (hopefully delayed until Ep. 13). Do we want to make it clearly gradual, with some minimalist intervention foreshadowed? Or openly planned? Or do we want to make the Ñoldor (not to mention the wholly innocent Dark Elves, Dwarves, Ents, and Mortals) look wholly abandoned, and then spring out Thorondor and Ulmo as total surprises? I’m inclined to foreshadow something subtly, if we can do so without any spoilers or
guarantees of intervention. So, nothing specific to Eagles, Gondolin, or Nargothrond. I think that we can balance showing that the Valar do care about those folks, without spoiling future plots.
Regarding the innocence of all those non-Ñoldorin people in Middle-earth, I think it’s important that in the Council the Valar have concrete and clear reasons for non-interferance, besides punishing or allowing the Ñoldorin rebellion. I think Tolkien wasn’t clear enough that they did consider all those other innocent peoples, and we should show them thinking hard about it and articulating why intervening would
also be bad for all those folks. Directly attacking Angband would destroy a continent and that’s clearly bad, but they could have intervened indirectly to give aid to the Dark Elves, Dwarves, Ents, and especially the Humans to whom they never even sent a messenger. I am thinking that we probably ought to either show the Valar having a good and justifiable reason for not helping or even speaking to any of those people ... or we should plan/brainstorm to later, occasionally show some subtle, indirect interventions in their favor, interventions that aren’t for the benefit of the Exiles.
Melian will protect Doriath. I can’t recall whether the Falathrin Havens get sacked again, but if not we could subtly imply that Ulmo is protecting them, as he later protected Gondolin, Nargothrond, and probably Balar and the Mouths of Sirion. So, maybe the Sindar can basically be doing alright, except those who join in the Ñoldorin war efforts. So, what about the Nandor, Ents, Dwarves, Avari, and Mortals?
