Session 3.18 - S3Ep13 Season Finale!

MithLuin

MithLuin

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Questions for Next Time:

April 13th - Finale! Don’t forget - post about artwork, sets, costumes, music, etc.

  1. Why does Morgoth staple Maedhros to the cliff? What should we show?

  2. What are the dynamics between the remaining five sons of Fëanor after Maedhros’ capture? What are their reactions to Fingolfin’s host?

  3. How much interaction between Fingolfin’s Host and the Fëanoreans do we want to show in this episode?

  4. What should the final image of the season be?
 
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1. Why does Morgoth staple Maedhros to the cliff? I’d say it’s a challenge to anyone who would try to rescue him, if they want him back.
 
4. Depends on what we want to cover in this episode. Will we end with Maedhros’ rescue? Fingon’s preparations for said rescue? If we have the latter, maybe a shot of Maedhros chained to Thangorodrim, with Orcs and Balrogs and Trolls around it?
 
Fingon's rescue of Maedhros will be in Season 4, Ange. I agree that a shot of Maedhros hanging on the cliff of Thangorodrim by his wrist as the sun sets is practically the definition of a 'cliff-hanger' and thus an appropriate final image for a season finale. Definitely a possibility! There is no reason for Maedhros to be guarded by anything, so I would not suggest orcs, balrogs, or trolls in that scene. He is meant to look lonely and abandoned.
 
MithLuin said:
Fingon's rescue of Maedhros will be in Season 4, Ange. I agree that a shot of Maedhros hanging on the cliff of Thangorodrim by his wrist as the sun sets is practically the definition of a 'cliff-hanger' and thus an appropriate final image for a season finale. Definitely a possibility! There is no reason for Maedhros to be guarded by anything, so I would not suggest orcs, balrogs, or trolls in that scene. He is meant to look lonely and abandoned.
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That makes sense, leaving Maedhros unguarded and it turns out that the chain is of such a material that Elven-blades cannot sever it, nor can the cuff be released from Maedhros' wrist, which means that Fingon has to cut off Maedhros' hand.
 
I do want to show the aftermath of the parley, with Thuringwethil returning to the Feanorean camp with the news that Maedhros is alive but captive, and Morgoth's ultimatum that they withdraw.

This would have to happen early in the episode, but I think it brings up the issues of the finale nicely. We already know what the Feanoreans are willing to do to others in order to fulfill their Oath. What we don't know is what they are willing to sacrifice personally, nor how well prepared they are to face the consequences of their actions. Abandoning Maedhros and meeting the Host of Fingolfin will go together to show the 'face the music' part of the Oath.
 
Maybe one of the brothers, say Maglor, suggests meeting with Fingolfin to debate their next move, bring them up to speed? By crossing into Middle-Earth, kinslaying and destroying the ships, they've crossed the Rubicon, there's no going back, even with Morgoth's ultimatum.
 
2. Caranthir will assume they want to kill them for abandoning them and burning the ships and he'll advocate killing them. Maglor will want to talk with the Fingolfians. A few more hands might be needed to rescue Maedhros. For Celegorm, Curufin and Amras, I don't know.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
2. Caranthir will assume they want to kill them for abandoning them and burning the ships and he'll advocate killing them. Maglor will want to talk with the Fingolfians. A few more hands might be needed to rescue Maedhros. For Celegorm, Curufin and Amras, I don't know.
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Killing them it's a bit too extreme, because they are outnumbered and won't win the fight. I don't think any of Feanor's sons are stupid, but I agree with your sentiment that Caranthir should be the most hostile. We also know, he especially does not like the Sons of Finarfin.

I have to confess, I have not listened to the last two episodes of the podcast, mostly, because I could not find them, but I would like to bring up the characterisation of the Noldor princes.

Galadriel even at the time of LOTR has her faults, but she is a much better person than she was in the First Age and even then she was the most noble out of Finwe's Valinor descendants except Finarfin and Finrod. The House of Finarfin have been influenced by their father and the Teleri, but Noldor princes as a whole are all very flawed even the popular ones like Fingon and Fingolfin.

There should be princes in Fingolfin's camp advocating the execution of Feanor and the further punishment of his sons.
 
Any idea on how Celegorm, Curufin and Amras think of how they should deal with Fingolfin’s arrival?
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Any idea on how Celegorm, Curufin and Amras think of how they should deal with Fingolfin’s arrival?
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The brothers do seem to go in pairs Maedhros/Maglor are close, Curufin/Celegorm and Amras/Amrod with Caranthir a bit of a loner.

Celegorm would probably have a hasty, rash idea. If Caranthir has the darkest idea, then Celegorm the most poorly thought out. I imagine Curufin would try and play the long game. His counsel would be to try and soothe Fingolfin's host, this would add soldiers to their cause and make them more likely to regain the Silmarils.

So Celegorm could immediately want to check the camps fortifications against any sudden attack, he could even be pushing to immediately ride over to Fingolfin's camp and demand to know their intentions.

Curufin will quickly get him on side, by requesting he be patient. He could then say, that it's important they win over Fingolfin's camp. He might even let them make the first move and then react from there. He will be stressing the need to win over Fingolfin's camp.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
And who in Fingolfin's group would be advocating the execution or punishment of Feanor's family?
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Turgon has the most reason to hate them having lost his wife. So he is possibility and probably the best bet. Angrod and Aegnor, might be ones that just want Feanor punished. Galadriel might be against an execution, but she might want Feanor banished before the rest of the Feanorians are accepted back into the fold.

Aredhel and Fingon will be strongly argue for the sons of Feanor. Finrod too might be on the forgiving side, but from a more genuine place than Aredhel/Fingon. Possibly even having a young Orodreth admiring and siding with Finrod over his father.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
1. Why does Morgoth staple Maedhros to the cliff? I’d say it’s a challenge to anyone who would try to rescue him, if they want him back.
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The "come and get him!" angle could work, but it's not quite in keeping, imho, with the published text. Maedhros' location isn't known when Fingon goes to look for him, if I remember correctly. So Maedhros' torment is less as a living banner of defiance or what have you, than a slow, torturous death by exposure to the elements. That is, Maedhros isn't the object used to punish the Noldor, but the patient receiving Morgoth's wrath. Not that the two ideas are mutually exclusive, but hopefully my meaning is clear enough.
 
MithLuin said:
Questions for Next Time:

April 6th (or 13th?) - Finale! Don’t forget - post about artwork, sets, costumes, music, etc.

  1. Why does Morgoth staple Maedhros to the cliff? What should we show?

  2. What are the dynamics between the remaining five sons of Fëanor after Maedhros’ capture? What are their reactions to Fingolfin’s host?

  3. How much interaction between Fingolfin’s Host and the Fëanoreans do we want to show in this episode?

  4. What should the final image of the season be?
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1. We're a PG-13/TV-14 rated show, right? So not tons of blood or gratuitous torture sequences, but I do think we might want to show Morgoth crowing over Maedhros (and possibly torture him -- is this when he learns Feanor is dead?), and while it might be pushing it, a scene of Maedhros being manacled and tossed, almost carelessly, to smack against the wall could be really awful/effective. The clank of the chain, the clap of his body hitting the stone, and his own moan could be a really unsettling combination of sounds.


2. I think this is where Curufin first shows his willingness to take over. The host probably looks to Maglor, as the next oldest, and Curufin probably doesn't challenge that openly, but I think in private he's the one actually calling the shots. And he needn't be malicious in his decisions -- when the demands come for Maedhros' release, I don't think his thoughts are "who cares about Maedhros?" or "No! Don't spoil my chance", but rather "this is so obviously a lie it's not even worth responding to." He's probably outraged, and mourns his brother, but he's too pragmatic/practical to think anything can be done except get revenge.

3. Very little, probably. It might be more effective if we leave the audience in a state of anticipation/dread. Maybe just the host of Fingolfin setting up defensible camps within sight of the Feanoreans, and leave it an open question -- against whom are those defenses intended?

4. I'm not sure if we really have one image that perfectly captures the end of the season. Maybe a series of snippets, like how the Two Towers film ended? Melian welcoming Thingol back to Doriath, Maedhros squinting up at the Sun, Fingolfin looking over towards the Feanorean camp, and Tivildo reluctantly approaching Mairon's headquarters?
 
1. I think it's just to torture him to death. I suggests just showing him already there when Fingolfin starts blowing his trumpets, show that he has been there a while and is already starved. My understanding is that we will in Ep 12 convey that Morgoth was torturing and interrogating him in a dungeon underground earlier.

2. Disarray and not being sure what to do next -- Morgoth won the last pass. Maglor trying to lead and being somewhat ineffective. Curufin is challenging his leadership in subtle, sneaky ways that Maglor can't just call him out for. But since they withdraw to the other side of the lake when Fingolfin comes, it seems likely that Curufin isn't 100% in charge. Or that when the pinch comes, most Feanorians do not want any confrontation with Fingolfin's folk (most even feel bad about burning the ships) and want to do things Maglor's way. The whole camp should look, overall, like they're out of their league and despite winning the Second Battle, really don't have what it takes to take on Morgoth without aid.

3. I think no direct interaction is best. Just like in the book: Fingolfin's larger host comes into Mithrim, the Feanorians hastily pack up and leave the north shore to get out of their way. There's tension in both camps, enough so the audience wonders if a fight might be about to start.

4. I suggest: Fingolfin reforging Ringil.


cellardur said:
Turgon has the most reason to hate them having lost his wife. So he is possibility and probably the best bet. Angrod and Aegnor, might be ones that just want Feanor punished. Galadriel might be against an execution, but she might want Feanor banished before the rest of the Feanorians are accepted back into the fold.

Aredhel and Fingon will be strongly argue for the sons of Feanor. Finrod too might be on the forgiving side, but from a more genuine place than Aredhel/Fingon. Possibly even having a young Orodreth admiring and siding with Finrod over his father.
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I think Turgon is the one who hates them the most, followed by Galadriel -- they're the most likely to say "execute them" and maybe it foreshadows Turgon's decision to execute Eol for killing his sister. But, I don't think anyone is entirely in the "let's just forgive and make friends" camp, maybe not even Fingon yet. That is, I think all of them are angry at Feanor, his sons, and his followers in general.

Fingon, Finrod, and Aredhel are the most willing to consider some kind of qualified reconciliation but not very strongly in favor of that, yet. They don't hate the Feanorians for what they did. I think that Fingon comes to his much stronger "Let's reconcile and forgive and forget!" position somewhat more gradually than that, and is prompted by various things over the next 5 years: the Noldor sitting around doing nothing at all while Morgoth rather obviously prepares for war against them, knowing that Maedhros is in torment somewhere, and remembering when they (and the Noldor in general) used to be friends.
 
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Faelivrin said:
2. Disarray and not being sure what to do next. Maglor trying to lead and being somewhat ineffective. Curufin is challenging his leadership in subtle, sneaky ways that Maglor can't just call him out for. But since they withdraw to the other side of the lake when Fingolfin comes, it seems likely that Curufin isn't 100% in charge. Or that when the pinch comes, most Feanorians do not want a confrontation with Fingolfin's folk (most even feel bad about burning the ships) and want to do things Maglor's way.
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The retreat to the other side of the lake definitely seems like a Maglor move. It seems like a delaying tactic, so that a decision does not yet have to be reached. A stronger leader would either find a way to settle the differences between the two hosts, or get ready for a fight.

I like Fingolfin reforging Ringil as the final image of the episode. We should definitely be trying to set up Fingolfin as a major protagonist through S04.
 
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