Session 3.18 - S3Ep13 Season Finale!

[Faelivrin]

In the book, there is no mention of any such reserves. It also doesn't say that there weren't any, so there could plausibly be some, but there can't be a seemingly endless supply or that will make the Battle of Sudden Flame look like nothing new. But, I don't think there would actually be any reserves of Orcs. Morgoth has impassable mountains surrounding his fortress, more than enough to stop any land army. (During the Siege of Angband, those mountains will stop the Noldorin armies cold. None of them will ever breake through his gate, except once when it's wide open.) If the Valar had attacked him, his Orcs would be meaningless, so there would be no reason to keep any of them in reserve. The only forces he had at that time that could conceivably be any use against the Valar are Sauron and the Balrogs. (And we can't put them on screen without killing a named character. And the Sun would not affect them.)

In our outlines, the Orc soldiers who were not sent out in the initial waves were already used in the Second Battle. They had been held in reserve, but then the Feanorians started defeating the Orcs and Werewolves. Then the reserves Morgoth had left were sent, desperately, to reinforce the army fighting the Feanorians. But the Feanorians killed almost all of them, and none survived except "a handful of leaves" and the Balrogs. Of those few Orcs who were left, those who went to help capture Maedhros, and every last Orc there was killed.

Likewise, from the First Battle, "few indeed returned to Angband" (according to Tolkien).

So the army is dead in both our outlines, and in the book. What servants Morgoth has left are a tiny number, not a huge army.

Because we are using what Tolkien wrote

But, it doesn't look like that to me. I can't see any of the similarity that you see. You removed "a handful of leaves" and replaced it with "a huge army". Instead of marching unopposed, Fingolfin's host is stopped by this huge army. That looks like quite a big change to me. I don't understand why you don't consider this to be a change. I don't understand how "a huge army" could be the same as "a handful of leaves". It would really help a lot if you would please clarify by giving concrete numbers. _How_ huge an army are you talking about? Since you don't mean millions of Orcs, then how many do you mean?


We had talked, weeks ago, about a very small and very brief skirmish with a very small group of Orcs, perhaps the remnant returning with Boldog, before Fingolfin reaches Angband. That is very, very different from a huge army. I still do not understand at all why there is any reason to add an additional, much vaster force opposing Fingolfin at the gates of Angband. I do not understand the strong opposition to Fingolfin arriving at the gates and being unopposed there. I do not want to jump to changing the story if there is nothing wrong with the story in the book.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I'm not the one who used the term "huge army" but that's a pretty relative term, and if we get hung up on that, we're likely to be here all day.

The exact number is irrelevant to me at this level of planning. My suggestion is, as I said earlier, enough to be a credible threat to Fingolfin's Host.

 

[Faelivrin]

Nick, I get that you're comfortable with vagueness in planning things, but the difference between 200,000 and 200 is significant and important to me, and I think it will be very significant in the script. It will be significant for the rest of the First Age. The difference between saying the great majority of Morgoth's army was killed in the First and Second Battles, versus saying ... I don't know what you're saying should happen instead. Nobody here was against the Elves winning those two battles, but that would mean his armies were killed there.

200-250 surviving/reserve Orcs and monsters would be plausible, consistent with the book, and a credible threat to Elves who can barely fight. 2000 would be near the edge of implausible but maybe possible. 200,000 would be an impossibly vast horde so soon after two great military defeats, and definitely a huge change from the book, with major consequences.



But please help me understand why you want to change this scene in the first place. Why are you, Nick and Marie and Cellardur, opposed to just using the story written in the book? Why can't Fingolfin march unopposed after a small, minor skirmish? Why can't he and his host blow trumpets, beat the gates, and boldly challenge Morgoth to war? Please, say why using what Tolkien wrote would be bad, or harmful, or whatever reasons you all want to change all of these concepts. _Why_ is changing them necessary at all?

If the problem that concerns you is that it feels anticlimactic for Fingolfin to walk away from Angband without a battle (after the first Sunrise) ... well, I recognize that it isn't a battle scene to keep the audience on the edge of their seats, but I don't think that was the point of that scene in the book. But adding an army, huge or otherwise, that just runs away, won't make it more exciting. If the very first Sunrise in all of Time is not dramatic, then Orcs and Trolls running away will be even less dramatic. It won't add any drama. It won't even add the effect of the Sun on them, because we already will show that with the little group of Orcs/Trolls/other monsters who skirmish with Fingolfin's host and then lead them to Angband.

The first Moonrise all by itself was climactic enough to be the penultimate scene of Episode 12. The first Sunrise plus a declaration of war will be much more impressive and world-changing than that was.

I will merely point out that Maedhros' army was completely destroyed by a force of Morgoth's after the battle from which 'only a handful of leaves' returned.

But Maedhros didn't bring his army, either in our outlines or in the book. He only brought a few hundred Elves. Sauron brought only a few hundred Orcs, who were all killed down to the very last. Sauron did not need a vast army of Trolls to kill those few hundred Elves, and Morgoth can't have a huge number of them yet because he only just created them.

But if we're clear on Morgoth's longterm goals here and now, with the rising of the sun (which is a clear message from Valinor), then the audience will be able to see that the Battle of Sudden Flame isn't a longterm win for Morgoth, because the elves are bleeding off his fighting strength before the final battle.

I don't follow where you're coming from. This is very different from Morgoth's strategy in the books, to my understanding. Tolkien wrote that after the Sunrise was followed by no Valarin attacks, Morgoth wrote off the Valar as having completely abandoned the Noldor and Middle-earth, and entirely stopped worrying about them. He didn't expect the War of Wrath. He waited out the Siege of Angband by multiplying his Orcs and Werewolves, increasing their numbers, and creating Dragons. He waited only just long enough to build the forces he needs to break the Siege. In the book, the Dagor Bragollach was a long-term victory for Morgoth, and the beginning of the end for the Eldar and other free peoples. The Elves didn't bleed off his army in that battle, instead Morgoth's army was even vaster in the Fifth Battle.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

200-250 surviving/reserve Orcs and monsters would be plausible, consistent with the book, and a credible threat to Elves who can barely fight. 2000 would be near the edge of implausible but maybe possible.

The implausibility of a few thousand orcs being available is wholly subjective here. The book does not state how many troops Morgoth had available, and it does state that he has an unspecified amount. That leaves it up to interpretation. Interpreting it as a few thousand rather than a few dozen gives us a better, more dramatic end to the season finale, which is why I am advocating for that.

But please help me understand why you want to change this scene in the first place. Why are you, Nick and Marie and Cellardur, opposed to just using the story written in the book? Why can't Fingolfin march unopposed after a small, minor skirmish? Why can't he and his host blow trumpets, beat the gates, and boldly challenge Morgoth to war? Please, say why using what Tolkien wrote would be bad, or harmful, or whatever reasons you all want to change all of these concepts. _Why_ is changing them necessary at all?

I'm not opposed to using the story written in the book. The text clearly states that AFTER the sun rises, Fingolfin marches unopposed to Angband BECAUSE his foes are hiding in the earth from the sun. This is exactly what I am advocating, and I'm not sure why that is a problem.

If the problem that concerns you is that it feels anticlimactic for Fingolfin to walk away from Angband without a battle (after the first Sunrise) ... well, I recognize that it isn't a battle scene to keep the audience on the edge of their seats, but I don't think that was the point of that scene in the book. But adding an army, huge or otherwise, that just runs away, won't make it more exciting. If the very first Sunrise in all of Time is not dramatic, then Orcs and Trolls running away will be even less dramatic. It won't add any drama. It won't even add the effect of the Sun on them, because we already will show that with the little group of Orcs/Trolls/other monsters who skirmish with Fingolfin's host and then lead them to Angband.

Who said anything about a battle after the sunrise? Or that Morgoth's army before Angband is engaged by Fingolfin's host at all? Are you thinking that we would have the sun rise early in the episode? I mean, that could be done, but it would certainly reduce the impact of the first sunrise from the episode's climax to a mere inciting event.

 

[MithLuin]

Ah, I see what is going on. Keep in mind that the discussions on the podcast are an ongoing/evolving consideration of ideas. It works *much* better to listen to the whole thing to get the full perspective.


So, another thing that was said happened at the 1:59 mark:

Corey: ...All we have to convey is that Morgoth is not going to accept his challenge. The orcs and trolls are scattered, so they're a total non-factor. All we would need is one scene, of Fingolfin delivering his challenge, and then one shot of - I'm imagining Morgoth in there, and Gothmog and Sauron sitting inside together, looking at each other, and them seeing if he's gonna - Essentially to have this nonverbal, 'Are you gonna go out? Are you gonna send us out?' And like nobody says anything or does anything and they just sit there. And it's clear, they're not going, not gonna answer the challenge. Even if we don't show him turning around and walking away, Fingolfin, we've established the fact that he's delivered this challenge and it's not going to be taken up. So that if, at the beginning of Season 4, we come back and the first time we see Fingolfin, and he's back in the camp with his people where he left them, we're not leaving it in suspense what happened, right? We've shown what happened. What happened is he delivered his challenge and it wasn't taken up. So that's easy enough to do, to show after the fact.

...

Dave: I kinda like this idea that you've just described and which Brian posted. Maybe he [Fingolfin] shows up initially just to check things out. Maybe he sees the Gates, maybe he sees Melkor has some forces stationed outside, has some scouts up on the wall. If we want to throw Nick a bone, maybe we even have Melkor standing up there and their eyes meet. And then the sun rises and all Melkor's forces retreat. That's when Fingolfin gets a little heady, goes and bangs on the door and plants his standard. I don't have a problem with that. I'm mostly in this for ... the part that I'm emotionally invested in now is the awesome action shot ending.

And at 2:15, it was suggested that the orcs who scatter when the sun rises could be the remnants of Boldog's returning army.

I think that we need some level of 'enemy forces' to lead Fingolfin to Thangorodrim. Yes, I realize that it's three giant towering mountains visible from very far away...but Fingolfin doesn't know where Angband is, and we need a reasonable plot point to get him there. So, yes, some force. Not a huge army, no, but probably not just 20 orcs, either. Certainly, whatever force shows up on screen now will look much smaller than what Gothmog sent after Fëanor.

Here's the thing, though. On one level, the audience needs to feel a threat. That Fingolfin is going to do the exact same thing that Fëanor and Maedhros have just done - go too close to Angband with too little armed force and lose when the balrogs/Sauron/trolls jump out and take him on. So, even if it's a relatively small scouting party of just 100 orcs and trolls, the viewer is anticipating reinforcements or ambush or something to happen when they reach Angband. So, yes, there can be more enemies lying in wait there...but then the sun rises and scatters them and they go away.

 

[Faelivrin]

The implausibility of a few thousand orcs being available is wholly subjective here. The book does not state how many troops Morgoth had available, and it does state that he has an unspecified amount. That leaves it up to interpretation. Interpreting it as a few thousand rather than a few dozen gives us a better, more dramatic end to the season finale, which is why I am advocating for that.

Using 2000 instead of 200,000 would be a lot less disturbing to me. I still don't understand what the point of this army is, but if it's not huge it would not change the meanings of the Five Battles of Beleriand.

I'm not opposed to using the story written in the book. The text clearly states that AFTER the sun rises, Fingolfin marches unopposed to Angband BECAUSE his foes are hiding in the earth from the sun. This is exactly what I am advocating, and I'm not sure why that is a problem.

I think somehow we are not talking about the same thing, or something. Fingolfin marches all the way to Angband's gate without being stopped or challenged. When he gets to the gate, there isn't an army standing there to get in his way. And his people blow trumpets and pound on the gates as a (somewhat pompous) declaration of war, he doesn't just quietly put a flag on the ground and walk away. (I think Fingolfin doing that is a telling character moment in addition to a declaration of war, not pointless. Planting a flag is _enormously_ better than the Hosts' proposal, but I still don't see the problem with what Fingolfin does in the book.)

I am having a lot of trouble understanding what you are imagining. Or picturing how Fingolfin would get to Angband unopposed, while also being opposed by an army standing there at the gate. Or how he can be opposed by an army without being attacked by it. I mean, yes, protesters nonviolently block roads, but you aren't saying the Orcs and Trolls are nonviolent. Can you please outline briefly how you see this scene playing out, or something? When you want any of this to happen in relation to the Sun rise. And what the army is doing, since there isn't a fight at the gate. And why we need to add this scene?

Adding the skirmish near Lammoth with a small handful of Orcs and Trolls, but no more than Fingolfin's exhausted people can survive, is an idea we already discussed and I agreed to do it. It has a purpose I can comprehend (leading Fingolfin to Angband, and having some servants of Morgoth outside to be fried/petrified/terrified by the Sun) and is based on something Tolkien wrote. We can keep that skirmish without adding another, additional army at the gate. And by not showing Morgoth sending everything he has outside at the gate, we avoid having to explain why he does not also send Sauron and the Balrogs out there.

Who said anything about a battle after the sunrise?

Nobody did! That's exactly my point: the scene at the gates is not going to be as riveting and edge-of-seat exciting as a huge, pitched Hollywood battle. Adding some Orcs running away will not get it there. In fact, threatening Fingolfin's entire host with an army, that then does nothing except run away, would probably be anticlimactic or maybe even comical.

On the other hand, the Sun is very exciting in a different, not-threatening-the-lives-of-multiple-named-characters kind of way. I think that's an acceptible kind of excitement for a season finale.

 

[MithLuin]

The Hosts were very much on board with the idea of Fingolfin planting his standard there as a challenge/declaration of war. It's going to go unanswered, but that's not the point.

We need to see orcs scattering underground and trolls turning to stone when the sun rises. That is going to happen. Ergo, there will be some aboveground at Angband when the sun rises.

Fingolfin is not marching his entire army to Angband. In the podcast, the hosts discussed how that would feel very anti-climatic, as there is no battle or anything. They just...get there, and then nothing happens, so they turn around and leave? So, the majority of Fingolfin's host is going to remain encamped, healing from their ordeal of crossing the Bifrost Helcaraxë. They will discuss their plans - get Morgoth! get Fëanor! - but there will be no motion forward on either front.

And then....well, we have to sort some things out. Because we need Fingolfin to decide to go to Angband, more or less alone (I imagine he can have some companions, but he can't exactly have a horse). So, we will have to work out the timing and what draws him there. And figure out the moment when the sun rises. The plant-the-standard, issue-the-challenge is definitely in response to the sun rising, so it's up to us to get Fingolfin there to be ready to do that. But, yeah, we're likely going to need that scouting force to be out and about to spur Fingolfin to action. We can discuss when we plot the episode.

Anyway, we can discuss things, but I agree that Morgoth's supply of orcs is not limitless, and we just wiped most of them out in two major battles which Angband lost. Not *all* of them - there were survivors of both fronts, including Boldog, who needs to make a reappearance in this episode. Obviously, though, the entire race of orcs has not been thoroughly wiped out. There are plenty of orc-children in the pits of Angband, ready for the next military venture in a few more years. Morgoth is hardly defenseless, and if he wanted to (and the sun didn't rise), he probably could have prepared to attack either of the Noldor camps, if that had been his priority. He still has all his balrogs, an army of trolls, the remnant of the orc armies, some werewolves (including Draugluin), Thuringwethil and her vampire bats, Tevildo and all of his cats...well, you get the picture. Certainly enough to pose a threat to the Host of Fingolfin. Except....sunrise.

 

[Faelivrin]

Oh hey, the forum is back? Maybe?

Since I'm outvoted.... 5-to-1, or something, I'm very relieved that you aren't decided on Fingolfin being stopped by a vast horde. Making them a guard already stationed at the gates instead would also be more plausible than reasonable force sent specifically to intercept Fingolfin.

I think that we need some level of 'enemy forces' to lead Fingolfin to Thangorodrim. Yes, I realize that it's three giant towering mountains visible from very far away...but Fingolfin doesn't know where Angband is, and we need a reasonable plot point to get him there. So, yes, some force. Not a huge army, no, but probably not just 20 orcs, either. Certainly, whatever force shows up on screen now will look much smaller than what Gothmog sent after Fëanor.

Here's the thing, though. On one level, the audience needs to feel a threat. That Fingolfin is going to do the exact same thing that Fëanor and Maedhros have just done - go too close to Angband with too little armed force and lose when the balrogs/Sauron/trolls jump out and take him on. So, even if it's a relatively small scouting party of just 100 orcs and trolls, the viewer is anticipating reinforcements or ambush or something to happen when they reach Angband. So, yes, there can be more enemies lying in wait there...but then the sun rises and scatters them and they go away

I think the skirmish described in paragraph 1 already provides everything you ask for in paragraph 2. I'm not at all arguing against the skirmish, I'm arguing in favor of Fingolfin (and with numerous warriors, not entirely alone) arriving at the gate unchallenged by a second host/force of [insert monsters]. But of course something happens there. First, the Sun rises! Then Fingolfin and his warriors ring loud trumpets, bang on the gates loud enough to be heard by Maedhros and in Morgoth's throne-room at the bottom of the deepest pit, and declare an unrelenting war of immortal vengeance. But Fingolfin isn't foolish enough to just stand there and get shot. Turning around is a significant character moment for that reason. Declaring war and ringing trumpets loudly and pompously is also a significant character moment. Whereas planting a flag quietly and unobtrusively, alone and with no trumpets, wouldn't even be noticed by anyone under or on Thangorodrim -- it's more like a declaration of formal grievance, to be discussed at the next staff meeting if possible. (sorry, but I've been contemplating a parody of this) There's nothing wrong with adding a flag, but there ought to be trumpets and fanfare like in the book.

Unless ... Corey has made a Final Decision about this scene and we have no choice about the single combat thing.... I really hope not.

 

[Haakon]

Are you guys sure that you don’t agree? It seems to me that the differences are rather small. Maybe it’s just me.
I for one wouldn’t like Fingolfin to march to Angband with just a handful of soldiers. Less than a hundred would be weird I think, but I do get that thousands marching there just after the crossing will seem illogical. Regardless of numbers though, I bet he could have a couple of trumpets.

A side note: I seem to be the only one who likes the anticlimax of the unanswered challenge. I think it is wonderful. The mystery it presents. The frustration. Oh well..

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Are you guys sure that you don’t agree? It seems to me that the differences are rather small. Maybe it’s just me.
I for one wouldn’t like Fingolfin to march to Angband with just a handful of soldiers. Less than a hundred would be weird I think, but I do get that thousands marching there just after the crossing will seem illogical. Regardless of numbers though, I bet he could have a couple of trumpets.

A side note: I seem to be the only one who likes the anticlimax of the unanswered challenge. I think it is wonderful. The mystery it presents. The frustration. Oh well..

Could be foreshadowing for the Nirnaeth Arnoediad where they get right up to the gates of Angband and don't win.

 

[MithLuin]

So, about the rising of the Sun montage...it would be easy to forget about a shot if we don't list them all.

• Manwe and Varda standing on Taniquetal as the Sun rises behind them.
• Morgoth standing on the cliff with Maedhros?
• Trolls turning to stone
• Orcs scattering and fleeing like cockroaches.
• Looking up reaction shots:
  • Thingol, Melian, and the court of Menegroth tableau
  • Cirdan and Celeborn
  • Camp of the Feanoreans at Mithrim
  • Host of Fingolfin
  • Maedhros hanging on the cliff
  • Dwarves
  • Green Elves
  • Ents
• Tom Bombadil with a waterlily
• Fields of blooming flowers
• Fingolfin's challenge

...and then the awakening of Men.

Anything else?

 

[cellardur]

When it comes to sticking to what Tolkien wrote I always wish to stay as close to the text as possible, probably too close than is best.

However, when it comes to the Silmarillion Tolkien was constantly changing his mind and left notes, which had yet ton be incorporated into the text. We need to decide whether to incorporate these changes and then see how they would change the story.

In his later notes, Tolkien seems to have changed his mind and had the host of Fingolfin attacked. The Battle of Lammoth, which even Christopher Tolkien notes as remarkable. This is the battle where the host of Fingolfin 'caught unawares as they marched southwards and the ranks of the Eldar were giving way, he (Argon) sprang forward and hewed a path through the foes.'

So actually having an army attack Fingolfin's host IS sticking close to what Tolkien wrote. We don't have Argon to make his brave charge, changing the cause of the battle, but we can use the rising of the Sun as a replacement.

 

[Haakon]

Do we need a shot of Sauron during the final montage?

 

[Faelivrin]

In his later notes, Tolkien seems to have changed his mind and had the host of Fingolfin attacked. The Battle of Lammoth, which even Christopher Tolkien notes as remarkable. This is the battle where the host of Fingolfin 'caught unawares as they marched southwards and the ranks of the Eldar were giving way, he (Argon) sprang forward and hewed a path through the foes.'

Lammoth and Thangorodrim are different locations hundreds of miles apart. They also have quite different positions in the story and uses by the author.

We are apparently all agreed about the skirmish in or near Lammoth, so long as the host has a chance to rest before having to fight. I am not agreed to put an additional random army opposing, let alone attacking, Fingolfin's host at Thangorodrim, because Tolkien never even suggested the possibility that this happened. There continues to be no need to change the story to insert this extra army, and it serves no purpose that is not already served well by the skirmish in Lammoth. This change would add nothing at all to the story.


Leaving behind most of his host and bringing only a group of soldiers all the way to Thangorodrim is not a violation of the spirit of the text, in my opinion. However, I think a few hundred soldiers should go, not just himself and a small bodyguard.


I do not think Morgoth should be standing on Thangorodrim when the Sun rises. Why is he still up there? He has other things to do. The Sun should not rise 5 seconds after he chains Maedhros up there.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Are you guys sure that you don’t agree? It seems to me that the differences are rather small. Maybe it’s just me.
I for one wouldn’t like Fingolfin to march to Angband with just a handful of soldiers. Less than a hundred would be weird I think, but I do get that thousands marching there just after the crossing will seem illogical. Regardless of numbers though, I bet he could have a couple of trumpets.

A side note: I seem to be the only one who likes the anticlimax of the unanswered challenge. I think it is wonderful. The mystery it presents. The frustration. Oh well..

But Haakon, ferocious argument over nuanced differences in vision are the new thing!

Ok, in regards to numbers and nomenclature.

Whatever number we agree upon for the amount of armed troops the Feanorians have by this point, the host of Fingolfin must have enough armed troops to pose a credible threat to them. So if the Feanorians have 2000 soldiers, Fingolfin would have to have at least that for there to be a reason for Maglor to feel it necessary to retreat from a fortified camp. In turn, if there is any potential risk involved in approaching Angband before the sun rises, there has to be a force large enough to be a credible threat to Fingolfin. Now, we could skirt this by having Fingolfin bring a scout force with him, but unless he gets cut off somehow, we are going to lose some of that risk, since Fingolfin can just retreat to the rest of his host.

Now Marie brings up a good point in saying that there should be a smaller skirmish near the beginning which helps direct Fingolfin towards Angband. That skirmish could end with the sun rising, but that will reduce significantly the impact that will have. Also, a small skirmish does not actually threaten Fingolfin's host. Bringing in a confrontation later in the episode gives us tension. The sun rising is exciting in and of itself, but it doesn't really resolve much ongoing tension. We want to tie it in to the tension curve of this episode.

The way I'm suggesting we do this is that Morgoth's remaining forces are ranged out in front of Angband _before_ the sun rises. Fingolfin's soldier's approach, and it looks like it's going to get ugly. The Noldor are exhausted, and even Fingolfin is unsure how this will play out. Especially with the families behind them. They might even consider a retreat. Then the sun rises, scattering or petrifying all of Morgoth's forces. After they recover from their own reactions to the sun's appearance, Fingolfin's host shouts, triumphantly blows trumpets, the whole bit. Now, I'd prefer having a bit more time to show them beating on the gate and the decision to pull back, but if we are having the sun rise in the final minutes of the main story, the hosts are correct in saying we don't have time for that. After the trumpets, we have have Fingolfin walking right up to the gate and planting his banner there.


I would consider the "march" to Angband a misleading term. It can either mean the distance between Angband and the coast, it can mean the distance across the Ard-Galen, or it could be the distance between in sight of the gate and at the gate.

 

[Faelivrin]

If they are attacked at Lammoth, then the audience has good reason to expect an attack at Angband as well. That tension will already exist without changing the story to give Morgoth an extra army.


I don't think the Lammoth skirmish should end with the Sun rising. I think Fingolfin takes his people and pursues the attackers north, at once while they're still visible, because otherwise he'll have to track them in the dark later if he wants to find Angband. At some point they leave the children and non-warriors behind to rest. The Elves follow the Orcs/Trolls/whatevers north. The Sun rises as they approach Angband, turning the Trolls to stone and driving the Orcs, wolves, or whatever to run to the gates screaming in pain. Then Fingolfin and his people look at the sun, cheer, blow trumpets, bang on the gates, etc. Fingolfin declares war and plants a banner. Maedhros shouts but nobody can hear him.

I don't think this can be the final scene. We need reaction shots in response to the Sun from other characters, the Hiding of Valinor, and the Awakening of Men. Since we need those at the end of Act 4 anyway, we can also show Fingolfin making a prudent decision to retreat from the gates.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I am not agreed to put an additional random army opposing, let alone attacking, Fingolfin's host at Thangorodrim, because Tolkien never even suggested the possibility that this happened. There continues to be no need to change the story to insert this extra army.

Well, no one is suggesting an army, random or otherwise, attack Fingolfin's host. Since we know that there were servants of Morgoth abroad when the sun rises, this isn't so much an insertion as it is a clarification.

Leaving behind most of his host and bringing only a group of soldiers all the way to Thangorodrim is not a violation of the spirit of the text, in my opinion. Though I think a few hundred soldiers, not just himself and a small bodyguard.

It may not be a violation of the text, but it is a reduction of risk, something this plotline in this episode can ill afford.

I do not think Morgoth should be standing on Thangorodrim when the Sun rises. Why is he still up there? He has other things to do. The Sun should not rise 5 seconds after he chains Maedhros up there.

The sun certainly should not rise 5 seconds after he chains Maedhroson Thangorodrim, and I don't think anyone suggested it would. What was suggested was an ongoing process of attempted undermining Maedhros' spirit. This is a good vantage point where Morgoth can watch his army crush his enemies, while also taunting Maedhros. It also allows us an opportunity to SHOW Morgoth's terror when the sun rises. If he is already safely underground, we will not see this.

 

[cellardur]

Lammoth and Thangorodrim are different locations hundreds of miles apart. They also have quite different positions in the story and uses by the author.

We are apparently all agreed about the skirmish in or near Lammoth, so long as the host has a chance to rest before having to fight. I am not agreed to put an additional random army opposing, let alone attacking, Fingolfin's host at Thangorodrim, because Tolkien never even suggested the possibility that this happened. There continues to be no need to change the story to insert this extra army, and it serves no purpose that is not already served well by the skirmish in Lammoth. This change would add nothing at all to the story.


Leaving behind most of his host and bringing only a group of soldiers all the way to Thangorodrim is not a violation of the spirit of the text, in my opinion. However, I think a few hundred soldiers should go, not just himself and a small bodyguard.


I do not think Morgoth should be standing on Thangorodrim when the Sun rises. Why is he still up there? He has other things to do. The Sun should not rise 5 seconds after he chains Maedhros up there.

I have no strong feelings either way about Fingolfin's host having a battle. My strong feelings are against Fingolfin going to Angband personally and challenging Morgoth to a duel.

I don't think I ever suggested there would be a battle at Thangorodrim. What I did suggest was, Morgoth sends a host strong enough to defeat Fingolfin's host, then the sun rises and they retreat. The initial battle could take place at Lammoth, with Fingolfin's host chasing and slaughtering the retreating orcs as Tolkien outlined. It's from there they proceed to Angband.

'Then though he (Argon) himself was surrounded and slain, the Orks were dismayed, and the Noldor pursued them with slaughter.'

However, instead of Argon turning the tides of the battle, we will now have the rising of the sun.

So the scene could be

-Fingolfin's host being attacked by the Orc army.
-The battle going badly for the Noldor
-Sun rises, trolls turn to stone, orc army breaks
-Fingolfin's forces pursue and with what is clearly going to be a rout
-Montage of people's reaction to the sun rising
-Fingolfin's army at Angband

Ultimately, I am fine with Fingolfin's host being unopposed or attacked as it seemed Tolkien later intended.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

If they are attacked at Lammoth, then the audience has good reason to expect an attack at Angband as well. That tension will already exist without changing the story to give Morgoth an extra army.


I don't think the Lammoth skirmish should end with the Sun rising. I think Fingolfin takes his people and pursues the attackers north, at once while they're still visible, because otherwise he'll have to track them in the dark later if he wants to find Angband. At some point they leave the children and non-warriors behind to rest. The Elves follow the Orcs/Trolls/whatevers north. The Sun rises as they approach Angband, turning the Trolls to stone and driving the Orcs, wolves, or whatever to run to the gates screaming in pain. Then Fingolfin and his people look at the sun, cheer, blow trumpets, bang on the gates, etc. Fingolfin declares war and plants a banner. Maedhros shouts but nobody can hear him.

I don't think this can be the final scene. We need reaction shots in response to the Sun from other characters, the Hiding of Valinor, and the Awakening of Men. Since we need those at the end of Act 4 anyway, we can also show Fingolfin making a prudent decision to retreat from the gates.

Perhaps it’s ironic that Maedhros’ shout is drowned out by the trumpets

 

[Haakon]

Perhaps it’s ironic that Maedhros’ shout is drowned out by the trumpets

I don’t think his voice carries all the way down to the gates. When Fingon hears him, Fingon will be much closer.