Session 3.18 - S3Ep13 Season Finale!

[Faelivrin]

It may not be a violation of the text, but it is a reduction of risk, something this plotline in this episode can ill afford.

So you're saying you do _not_ want them to leave the women and children behind somewhere?

Either way would work IMO.

What was suggested was an ongoing process of attempted undermining Maedhros' spirit. This is a good vantage point where Morgoth can watch his army crush his enemies, while also taunting Maedhros. It also allows us an opportunity to SHOW Morgoth's terror when the sun rises. If he is already safely underground, we will not see this.

With the exception of Morgoth still having an army after the First and Second Battles, this could work.

That makes me think about the effect of the Sun on demons. Sauron and demonic spies are clearly unharmed by it, otherwise they couldn't pretend to be normal Maiar, Mortals, or whatever. But Morgoth surely would actually be burned/pained by the Sun/Arien, not just afraid of her or the Valarin attack she might herald... so the difference in effect is a bit odd. And then are we going to show that effect happening when Morgoth answers Fingolfin's challenge after the Fourth Battle? He's in constant pain from his Silmaril burns anyway, so it may not be noticeable. Especially if his face is covered by a helmet.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

So you're saying you do _not_ want them to leave the women and children behind somewhere?

Either way would work IMO.


With the exception of Morgoth still having an army after the First and Second Battles, this could work.

That makes me think about the effect of the Sun on demons. Sauron and demonic spies are clearly unharmed by it, otherwise they couldn't pretend to be normal Maiar, Mortals, or whatever. But Morgoth surely would actually be burned/pained by the Sun/Arien, not just afraid of her or the Valarin attack she might herald... so the difference in effect is a bit odd. And then are we going to show that effect happening when Morgoth answers Fingolfin's challenge after the Fourth Battle? He's in constant pain from his Silmaril burns anyway, so it may not be noticeable. Especially if his face is covered by a helmet.

How could he be burned by the Sun? He's far underground.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

What was suggested was an ongoing process of attempted undermining Maedhros' spirit. This is a good vantage point where Morgoth can watch his army crush his enemies, while also taunting Maedhros. It also allows us an opportunity to SHOW Morgoth's terror when the sun rises. If he is already safely underground, we will not see this.

 

[Haakon]

Two ‘last’ comments about Morgoth’s armies.

He did have two great hosts. They lost and were more or less destroyed. He could have more orcs. In fact he could have a lot, maybe not a great host but a lot, but they could be second rate, less well equipped and younger, or crippled. My mind goes to WWII and the German army during the final days of that part of the war. Most of the soldiers had been caught or killed, so teenagers and old people were enlisted.

As Morgoth’s great hosts have been destroyed, he has to be very careful with the troops he has left. He risks loosing them as well unless he comes up with a new, brilliant strategy.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Two ‘last’ comments about Morgoth’s armies.

He did have two great hosts. They lost and were more or less destroyed. He could have more orcs. In fact he could have a lot, maybe not a great host but a lot, but they could be second rate, less well equipped and younger, or crippled. My mind goes to WWII and the German army during the final days of that part of the war. Most of the soldiers had been caught or killed, so teenagers and old people were enlisted.

As Morgoth’s great hosts have been destroyed, he has to be very careful with the troops he has left. He risks loosing them as well unless he comes up with a new, brilliant strategy.

New, brilliant strategy... Is this were dragon experimenting begins?

 

[Haakon]

Well, among other things, but yes.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Well, among other things, but yes.

That was the main one I could think of.

 

[Haakon]

Neither can I at this point but I’m sure we will think of something as we go along.

 

[Faelivrin]

No, Morgoth in the book does _not_ begin making Dragons until after his Orcs attacked Hithlum and were defeated in 155. This is explicitly stated in the book.

It is also explicitly stated in the book that Morgoth's armies were destroyed in the First and Second Battles and he was left with "a handful of leaves". That means that he does _not_ have an army at this time. A "handful" of Orcs is not the same as an army or a host or a lot of Orcs.

I am _not_ willing to rewrite the story to change these facts.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

No, Morgoth in the book does _not_ begin making Dragons until after his Orcs attacked Hithlum and were defeated in 155. This is explicitly stated in the book.

It is also explicitly stated in the book that Morgoth's armies were destroyed in the First and Second Battles and he was left with "a handful of leaves". That means that he does _not_ have an army at this time. A "handful" of Orcs is not the same as an army or host of Orcs.

I am _not_ willing to rewrite the story to change these facts.

So what do you propose to fill in for a new strategy for Morgoth?

 

[Faelivrin]

His new strategy in the book is: capture Maedhros to gain himself more time to come up with something. He does not come up with something yet, and when the Sun rises and he's left flat-footed.

He discounts the threat of the Noldor because they are divided against each other, and not making war against him. He "laughs" at their division, ignores them completely, and travels to Hildorien to corrupt Mortals. He does not return until after the Noldor have reunited and started making war against him. He then tries using "more Orcs" as a strategy and loses Dagor Aglareb badly. 95 years later, his strategy is _still_ to use "more Orcs." He does not change this "more Orcs" strategy at all until his defeat in year 155. Maybe that looks foolish in hindsight, but that's what he did. At that time:

But thereafter there was peace for many years, and no open assault from Angband, for Morgoth perceive now that the Orcs unaided were no match for the Noldor; and he sought in his heart for new counsel.
Again after a hundred years Glaurung, the first of the Uruloki, the fire-drakes of the North, issued from Angband's gates by night. He was yet young and scarce half-grown, for long and slow is the life of the dragons,

Meaning Glaurung was made after Morgoth sought for new counsel, after his Orcs were defeated in year 155. Even then, it takes 105 years to make Glaurung and get him "scarce half-grown". Morgoth's R&D turnaround time is measured in decades, not weeks. Even if he was already creating something new, he could not already have created it.

In our outlines, we have already given him Trolls, which were newly revealed in the capture of Maedhros. That is already something new. And in our outlines it takes much more than a week to create them. He cannot have an entire army of Trolls yet.

Orcs also take time to breed. He cannot renew his destroyed Orc armies so soon after the First and Second Battles. It will take years to raise the next generation of Orcs, and decades to have an actual army again. (And his army will still be too small to threaten Fingolfin's people with annihilation, even 60 years from now. Meaning he can't threaten them with annihilation by a vast host in Lammoth, or at the gates of Angband, in this episode.)

 

[MithLuin]

Trolls,obviously.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

It is also explicitly stated in the book that Morgoth's armies were destroyed in the First and Second Battles and he was left with "a handful of leaves". That means that he does _not_ have an army at this time. A "handful" of Orcs is not the same as an army or a host or a lot of Orcs.

I am _not_ willing to rewrite the story to change these facts.

The book explicitly states that the armies intended for the conquest of Beleriand were reduced to a handful of leaves. That does not necessitate that he has no reserve defensive armies. We've been over this several times by now.

 

[Faelivrin]

I just don't agree that there is any reason to have a reserve of Orcs to defend a mountain range against the Valar. That doesn't make sense. Morgoth must surely know that Orcs are useless against the Valar.

Morgoth has impassable mountains surrounding his fortress, more than enough to stop any land army. (During the Siege of Angband, those mountains will stop the Noldorin armies cold. None of them will ever breake through his gate, except once when it's wide open.) If the Valar had attacked him, his Orcs would be meaningless, so there would be no reason to keep any of them in reserve.

And:

(And his army will still be too small to threaten Fingolfin's people with annihilation, even 60 years from now. Meaning he can't threaten them with annihilation by a vast host in Lammoth, or at the gates of Angband, in this episode.)

His Orcs now definitely can't be _more_ than he will have at Dagor Aglareb, after 60 years of uninterrupted breeding.


Can we please go back to no more than a few hundred or thousand or so Orcs, instead of an army? Cellardur's idea is way too big a change from the book.

 

[Haakon]

Look I wasn’t suggesting anything about what Morgoth does at this point, on the contrary - and that was my point, he doesn’t know what to do now. I assume that he eventually will come around to creating Dragons, but that’s a later issue.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Look I wasn’t suggesting anything about what Morgoth does at this point, on the contrary - and that was my point, he doesn’t know what to do now. I assume that he eventually will come around to creating Dragons, but that’s a later issue.

Maybe he tries to create something and it doesn't go well?

 

[Haakon]

Hey let’s just say that the Sun has just come up and his laughable army can’t stand it and he has to think things through for a bit.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Hey let’s just say that the Sun has just come up and his laughable army can’t stand it and he has to think things through for a bit.

That works.

 

[Faelivrin]

Things Morgoth (or Sauron) tries to create could go wrong in so many hideous, awful, horrific ways.

Look I wasn’t suggesting anything about what Morgoth does at this point, on the contrary - and that was my point, he doesn’t know what to do now. I assume that he eventually will come around to creating Dragons, but that’s a later issue.

OK, thank you for clarifying.

 

[cellardur]

I just don't agree that there is any reason to have a reserve of Orcs to defend a mountain range against the Valar. That doesn't make sense. Morgoth must surely know that Orcs are useless against the Valar.



And:

His Orcs now definitely can't be _more_ than he will have at Dagor Aglareb, after 60 years of uninterrupted breeding.


Can we please go back to no more than a few hundred or thousand or so Orcs, instead of an army? Cellardur's idea is way too big a change from the book.

Well Tolkien was considering a different option as shown by the quotes from POME. Christopher Tolkien considered a big change, but it does appear to be his last thoughts. We don't have to go with this, but this IS sticking to something Tolkien wrote. He could have quite easily learnt from his spies that the Noldor were making there way across the Helacaraxe and left an army at Lammoth to finish them off.