Session 3.18 - S3Ep13 Season Finale!

Here's a random side-thought that may have been discussed but I don't remember it.

We have to give a concrete number to the visual effects department. How big is Fingolfin's host? Hundreds? Thousands? Tens of thousands?
 
Well... To be honest, ending the season at the moment where Fingolfin realizes he's going to have to pull back from Angband makes a lot more sense as far as a season climax. It's a bittersweet ending, to be sure, but ... Silmarillion. Moving forward from there, we get entangled in the long walk back to Mithrim and the Feanorian reaction to the arrival of Fingolfin, all of which sounds much more like early episode and early season stuff to me. This way, we are ending the season on the very first morning, and putting the rising of the sun a lot further along in the tension curve.
 
Setting up anticipation for the next season is very important in a Season finale.

For that reason, I think it's important for the two camps to see each other (or at the very least, know and talk about each other) in this episode.

Certainly, it will feel unfinished - that's somewhat the point.
 
MithLuin said:
Setting up anticipation for the next season is very important in a Season finale.

For that reason, I think it's important for the two camps to see each other (or at the very least, know and talk about each other) in this episode.

Certainly, it will feel unfinished - that's somewhat the point.
Click to expand...
I guess we’re not doing Maedhros hanging by his wrist?
 
We will certainly be showing Maedhros hanging by his wrist at least once in this episode. We may show another glimpse of this at the end of the episode as well.
 
MithLuin said:
Setting up anticipation for the next season is very important in a Season finale.

For that reason, I think it's important for the two camps to see each other (or at the very least, know and talk about each other) in this episode.

Certainly, it will feel unfinished - that's somewhat the point.
Click to expand...

The thing is that we are immediately going to stop all over that anticipation in the first episode.

It's kind of like killing a main character at the end of a season, only to resurrect them in the first act of the next one. Or putting someone in danger in a season finale, only to have the season premiere open with their miraculous rescue.

Ending the episode at the retreat from Angband sets up a "What are they going to do now?" Anticipation of conflict amongst the Noldor is still there, just a bit less "in your face".
 
Fingon's rescue of Maedhros will certainly help to reconcile the two groups, but we likely won't recognize Fingolfin as king until Episode 2, and even so that won't kill the tension entirely. It's clear at that point that the two groups don't get along, and they will continue to not get along for some time.

I agree that sometimes the cliffhanger of a season finale can feel like a cheat if it's resolved too quickly in the next season, or if the threat-of-death turned out not to be actual-death, but you do need to toss some teasers in there for anticipation. The payoff for the glimpse of Men won't come for a long time, and the teaser of Thingol first hearing news of arrivals from Valinor isn't really enough to set up enough anticipation for the next season. We need more. Maedhros, who is in desperate need of a rescue but looks as though he's going to be left to die, is a good teaser, and one that we mean to remedy immediately in Season 4. So...what do we want to hook the audience's anticipation on when it comes to Fingolfin's camp? What should we be hoping for?

There are other options. Sure, the forging of the sword Ringil and the implied threat towards the Fëanoreans is good. We could have Fingolfin get the news that Fëanor is dead. But we also have the possibility for Galadriel and Celeborn to catch their first glimpses of one another now that they're in the same place. Or have Idril make her father smile again, and he promises to find her a safe place to live. Or...something.
 
I think that, since the rising of the Sun is a really Big Deal, literally changing the landscape and the circumstances in which all players must act in this story, it will make most sense to end in a situation that is full of uncertainty. Showing how they begin to act will definitely lessen that effect. I'd rather put some time on the Valar and the hiding of Valinor (and then move to Hildorien quickly).
 
Another alternative ending: The sons of Fëanor, wondering what to do without their father. Maglor holding Fëanor's crown, Curufin looking like he wants to take it. The Sun shining on them like a message fron the Valar saying "We haven't forgotten you". Which could be good or bad.
 
MithLuin said:
Fingon's rescue of Maedhros will certainly help to reconcile the two groups, but we likely won't recognize Fingolfin as king until Episode 2, and even so that won't kill the tension entirely. It's clear at that point that the two groups don't get along, and they will continue to not get along for some time.
Click to expand...

My issue is that the plot loses quite a bit of steam if we follow Fingolfin back to Mithrim. Ending as his host pulls back from Angband sets up all the same things. Maedhros remains unrescued, the Fëanoreans can be made aware of Fingolfin's arrival by scouts but don't have to discuss what to do yet. Word can have reached Thingol that the Noldor are in Middle Earth. All without doing scenes that are put to better use as Act I setup in later episodes.
 
I am not necessarily opposed to this. I just...

We start this episode (or end the last one) with Fingolfin being all...great! I finally made it here, and my people (mostly) didn't die, so now we're ready to go find Morgoth and that stupid half-brother of mine and let them know that we've got some axes to grind and we're not going away that easily!

So, there's all this forward momentum to go *find* Morgoth and Fëanor, and they've come a long way to deliver this message. So, we definitely will have Fingolfin get his point across to Morgoth. He's going to march up to the door of Angband, bang on it, and blow some trumpets. Sure, he's not ready to actually take the fortress, but he knows where it is and he has an army, (and the Valar and their light seem to be on his side) so the message there is pretty clearly one of threat (for later).

I think I would feel a bit...deflated...if we didn't continue on to deliver a similar message to the Host of Fëanor. I'm not picky about how we do that, though. I want there to be *some* clear indication of Fingolfin learning where the Fëanoreans are, and moving towards them with his entire Host. I want there to be some clear indication of the anger/tension in his camp (whether it's the reforging of Ringil, or moving into the oh-so-recently-vacated settlement of the Fëanoreans, or just sending messengers towards the Host of Fëanor without the viewers knowing what the message is.) I want to end with the feeling that we're on the brink of a conflict about to break out. I don't want to end with turning away from the gates of Angband in bewildered defeat without having a clear indication of what Fingolfin is moving towards.

But like I said, I'm not married to a particular geographical landing point for the two Hosts. Some level of 'now they both know that the other one is here' is probably all we need, and that could be accomplished without the two Hosts coming within sight of one another. But if we aren't going to have them eyeing each other warily across Lake Mithrim, then I want to make sure we have an idea of how we convey this sense of anger and threat from the Host of Fingolfin towards the Fëanoreans. That's all.

Alternately, if we really want to end the episode with the Host of Fingolfin right outside the gates of Angband, then we maybe need to deal with the Fingolfin-Fëanor tension earlier in the episode by having them march through Mithrim on their way to Angband. That would precipitate Maglor's move south, certainly, and might convey everything we need...but again, only if we plan that out. I don't want to save all of the intra-Noldor conflict for Season 4 Episode 1!
 
Notes from today:


Rising of the Sun
  • should be at the end
  • foreshadows the War of Wrath, immediate reaction is positive…initially a dramatically good thing
  • Morgoth’s gloating and moment of triumph is cut short and his satisfaction is turned to horror
  • IMG Sun rising from behind Manwe and Varda on Taniquetil. Varda shining and her light combines with the Sun’s light. Morgoth is standing on Thangorodrim, Manwe can see him. Morgoth is looking into the West at the moment the sun rises from behind Manwe and Varda. Should be first image in the montage.
  • IMG Sun rising as Cirdan & Celeborn see Feanorean camps
  • single lines from characters OK (instead of completely silent montage)
  • Boldog and his army scattering as the sun rises
  • Other reactions: vampires flying into caves, Ents, Tom Bombadil, etc…


Maedhros’ Captivity

Q: Should the death of Feanor remain unknown?
  • Morgoth should find out in this episode. Tie up Feanor’s story here, so that Morgoth’s finding out in S4 doesn’t detract from the (several) other things going on.
  • Morgoth would be taunting Maedhros (“Your dad can’t save you”) and learn the truth about Feanor’s death in Maedhros' reaction

  • The emissaries sent to the Feanoreans should show tokens to prove that they have Maedhros (e.g. lock of hair).
  • Sauron parallels the Mouth of Sauron by acting as the “Mouth of Melkor [the Great]” here
  • The rejection of Sauron’s offer is not so much abandonment as skepticism on the part of Maedhros’ brothers
  • Sauron should blame the captivity on Maehdros himself
  • Show Maedhros actually getting stapled to the cliff (emphasizes the cruelty of Morgoth and the suffering of Maedhros). Have ledge above.
  • Use as foreshadowing for Hurin. Have that ledge be the same ledge Morgoth uses.
  • IMG Toggle image of Maedhros’ iron band and image of Morgoth’s iron crown.

*Maedhros’ captivity inspires the forging of Angrist
  • Morgoth should give a taunting speech that looks and sounds familiar to his later scene with Hurin. Maedhros shouldn’t defy Morgoth in the same way Hurin does; Hurin’s defiance has to genuinely take Morgoth aback.
  • Morgoth reminds Maedhros of the way he manipulated the Noldor into rebelling in the first place
  • Should be more a monologue on Morgoth’s part while Maedhros is barely conscious


Fingolfin’s Arrival
  • Possibly have the Feanoreans not even aware that Fingolfin’s host is back
  • Political tension and moving of camps, though sets up for future drama, not the best culmination…a bit anti-climatic…
  • The meeting between the Fingolfin’s host and the Feanoreans should take place in the next season; mirror the biblical meeting between Jacob and Esau
  • Angrod the voice of the “Forget Angband, let’s go after Feanor!” mood among the followers
  • IMG Sun should rise as they’re coming into Angband
  • Fingolfin rides to gates, beats on gates of Angband and leaves just to let Morgoth know he and his host have arrived.
  • Fingolfin’s action here sets up the action for the second time he challenges Morgoth.
  • IMG same standard that is later trodden into the ground gets planted in that same field by Fingolfin
  • IMG Fingolfin walking off into the sunrise (vs. sunset)
  • Reforging of Ringil for next season


Q: Why doesn’t Morgoth come out this first time?
  • Fears the wrath of the Valar (doesn’t even know who’s at the gate at first)
  • The second time, Morgoth doesn’t just have Fingolfin captured and carried off because he’s still burning from the shame of shying away from the challenge this first time.
  • IMG Morgoth and Gothmog (mildly anxious) non-verbal exchange on what to do in response the challenge.

Q: Should Turgon be among the bloodthirsty?
  • Turgon’s first bad call shouldn’t be here. Should be at the end.
  • Should have a near-Messianic aura around him (Prophesied to “bring balance to the Force”)
  • Should be anti-Feanor but not pro-kinslaying


Other Key Things

Q: Where are we leaving the Doriath story? What are our final scenes with Thingol and Melian?
  • Ditch the messenger entirely and focus on reaction shots to the rising of the sun
  • Indicate Saeros there in the Doriath tableau

Q: Sun rises from West or East, here?

- Sun will rise from the West in this first appearance. Can be explained by human myth (sun as their guide, subsequently rising from the east to lead them into the West)



Hiding of Valinor
  • Can do in final montage of images
  • Osse calls islands from the sea

Men Awakening
  • Could be in a nice lush place without it being too “Garden of Eden”
  • Group of people asleep (naked) and waking up…or single person waking first (no music, mysterious start of something vs. openly dramatic moment)
  • Different races of men from beginning
 
Richol Richards said:
Q: Should Turgon be among the bloodthirsty?
  • Turgon’s first bad call shouldn’t be here. Should be at the end.
  • Should have a near-Messianic aura around him (Prophesied to “bring balance to the Force”)
  • Should be anti-Feanor but not pro-kinslaying
Click to expand...
This isn't going to make sense. Turgon is going to make a number of really bad calls.
1. Keeps everyone except his messages locked away, but shows favouritism and allows Aredhal to leave.
2. Forces Maeglin to stay in Gondolin, but will later let Huor and Hurin leave.
3. Orders the brutal execution of Eol, which makes even Idril distance herself from the Noldor.
4. After all Hurin/Huor have done for him he refuses to let Hurin back in the city.

These are just big mistakes he makes off the top of my head.

I also think it will take away from the true near-Messianic figure Earendil.

The Noldor are no saints and it's very telling that the lore master Elrond prefers to trace his lineage through Thingol. I feel we are whitewashing the House of Fingolfin.
 
cellardur said:
This isn't going to make sense. Turgon is going to make a number of really bad calls.
1. Keeps everyone except his messages locked away, but shows favouritism and allows Aredhal to leave.
2. Forces Maeglin to stay in Gondolin, but will later let Huor and Hurin leave.
3. Orders the brutal execution of Eol, which makes even Idril distance herself from the Noldor.
4. After all Hurin/Huor have done for him he refuses to let Hurin back in the city.

These are just big mistakes he makes off the top of my head.

I also think it will take away from the true near-Messianic figure Earendil.

The Noldor are no saints and it's very telling that the lore master Elrond prefers to trace his lineage through Thingol. I feel we are whitewashing the House of Fingolfin.
Click to expand...


I think you are taking this point further than it was meant. It is a reference to several textual elements: Melkor's reaction to Turgon in Valinor, Ulmo's intention to use Turgon as a rallying point to get the other Valar involved, and the descent of Earendil from Turgon.

No one is suggesting that Turgon is infallible, nor whitewashing his legacy.
 
The Hosts will review the Script Outlines of the first several Episodes, and comment on them, making suggestions of what they think works and what they'd like to change, now that they've gone through the entire season and see where things are headed. The next session will be next week, Friday April 20th.

The rough drafts of the Script Outlines can be found here:
https://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?threads/season-3-script-outlines.2672/

Anyone is welcome to comment on them or suggest edits to improve them before Friday's session.



To comment further on Turgon, it was merely brought up that he is not explicitly calling for the death of Fëanor at this time. He is very angry at Fëanor, of course, but that does not mean he wants to become a kinslayer, either. Angrod is...less scrupulous on this point.
 
Last edited:
Will we see men in that episode?
I mean...

In a way it would be cool if we won´t see men yet and the Rising sun is the last scene for this season, while a rising sun is the first scene of the next season too... in which we totally should see the awakening of men...

I mean the same Take of a rising sun as last scene for this and opener of the next season would be kinda cool.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top