Session 4.02 - Season 4 Episode Outlines

I think Morgoth's tortures are always extremely horrible, and we need not go into details in most cases. Also, none of the proposed captives have interacted with Gondolin at the time they're captured. Edit: Hurin is, but he comes later.

The Spell of Bottomless dread is a later invention that comes after Maedhros is captured and rescued, though.

I agree Luthien wouldn't be unaware of what's going on, but she could be uninterested in visiting/interacting with the Noldor outside Doriath. She will have an opinion about them, though, about Galadriel, and about whether or not the Sindar should reconcile with the Noldor, forgive them, both, or neither.
 
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I think Morgoth's tortures are always extremely horrible, and we need not go into details in most cases. Also, none of the proposed captives have interacted with Gondolin at the time they're captured. Edit: Hurin is, but he comes later.

The Spell of Bottomless dread is a later invention that comes after Maedhros is captured and rescued, though.

I agree Luthien wouldn't be unaware of what's going on, but she could be uninterested in visiting/interacting with the Noldor outside Doriath. She will have an opinion about them, though, about Galadriel, and about whether or not the Sindar should reconcile with the Noldor, forgive them, both, or neither.
It’s just my observation that the effects on captives get steadily worse, from Maedhros being stronger than ever, (theorized) Orodreth being broken, Hurin indirectly aiding Morgoth by causing the fall of Doriath, and Maeglin directly aiding Morgoth out of choice.

Also, there is a problem with having a named character suffer a debilitating and traumatizing experience that they did not receive in the source material; the result is that people seem to think that the creators/writers are aiming for shock value. For example with Game of Thrones, the books have Ramsay Bolton, a sadistic torturer and rapist, marry a girl (Jeyne Poole) posing as a main character. For the show, this is replaced with a main character, Sansa Stark, who is raped on her wedding night by Ramsay. The backlash was instantaneous and explosive, I’ll stop right there.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-r...nes-goes-off-book-and-enrages-its-female-fans
 
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Lúthien needs to be doing something beyond dancing in the woods. She can still totally dance in the woods, but we should spend some time with her and Daeron (maybe she lets him down easy at some point?). We should develop her political views (even if they are very hippie peace love and happiness...we should decide to express that). And...she should learn/work on her magic. She's going to pull all kinds of nifty tricks later. She could be doing some of that now (for some reason).

So, yes, if the main story for Thingol and Melian this season is going to be their approach to the knowledge of the Noldor's crimes...then we should definitely include Lúthien's viewpoint in that. And if the children of Finarfin keep coming to visit Doriath, then Lúthien should meet them and interact. What does she think of Galadriel? Finrod? Angrod? We should explore all of that.

We want to give her a chance to be awesome, even if she mostly stays home, rather than wait until Beren shows up and *then* decide that she's awesome.
 
I think Morgoth's tortures are always extremely horrible, and we need not go into details in most cases. Also, none of the proposed captives have interacted with Gondolin at the time they're captured. Edit: Hurin is, but he comes later.
I think we should avoid showing torture. Just hearing screams, and seeing other prisoners reacting might be as powerful/horrible. I have seen more than one horror-movie becoming lack-lustre by showing the "monster" to soon.
 
I don’t think Luthien should be out of the loop. At all. It doesn’t really endear the audience to have a central character who seems like they’re a cloudcuckoolander.

Maybe Morgoth’s tortures get worse over time with desperation and hate, and worse with anybody who’s interacted with Gondolin, since Morgoth fears and hates Turgon most out of all the Noldor, because he knows that his doom will be due to Turgon’s line.
Luthien is not in cloudcukooland, she is just an isolationist. Her concerns are Doriath and it's people. She has no real desire to explore outside her country. When her people are threatened like in the case with the spiders, then she acted, but primarily she is focused on her people. In face she won't be too dissimilar than the early Numenorean kings, who will take after her.
Lúthien needs to be doing something beyond dancing in the woods. She can still totally dance in the woods, but we should spend some time with her and Daeron (maybe she lets him down easy at some point?). We should develop her political views (even if they are very hippie peace love and happiness...we should decide to express that). And...she should learn/work on her magic. She's going to pull all kinds of nifty tricks later. She could be doing some of that now (for some reason).
I don't think Luthien is very hippie at all. I agree we should expand on her political views,

He brought her to Celegorm, and Lúthien, learning that he was a prince of the Noldor and a foe of Morgoth, was glad; and she declared herself, casting aside her cloak.

This is very telling on her views on the Noldor princes. She considers them foes of Morgoth and allies.

We know she is very stern when she want to be, but is merciful.

'There everlastingly thy naked self shall endure the torment of his scorn, pierced by his eyes, unless thou yield to me the mastery of thy tower.'

Then Lúthien rising forbade the slaying of Curufin; but Beren despoiled him of his gear and weapons, and took his knife, sheathless by his side; iron it would cleave as if it were green wood.

Luthien is a natural leader and ha no problem taking command, but she tends to be merciful when given the choice.

We also know she is a dutiful daughter and willingly obeys Thingol most of the time.

I would therefore imagine her political views to be more forgiving and lenient on the Noldor. She would probably be prepared to forgive them and see them as allies against Morgoth, but she would accept her father's council of keeping Doriath in isolation.

When I say she is naive, I mean she wouldn't be interested or bothered to know the internal politics of the Noldor. I doubt she knows what Caranthir or Celegorm or like.
So, yes, if the main story for Thingol and Melian this season is going to be their approach to the knowledge of the Noldor's crimes...then we should definitely include Lúthien's viewpoint in that. And if the children of Finarfin keep coming to visit Doriath, then Lúthien should meet them and interact. What does she think of Galadriel? Finrod? Angrod? We should explore all of that.

We want to give her a chance to be awesome, even if she mostly stays home, rather than wait until Beren shows up and *then* decide that she's awesome.
Luthien as we see is forgiving and her younger cousins probably look up to her in awe. We could even have Finrod learning songs of power from her, especially about disguises.

Galadriel's world views and desires are so different from Luthien's. They do have their empathy for others in common.

In general, I imagine the impression of Finarfin's children will be similar to Legolas' view of Aragorn: full of respect and admiration.

Luthien would be closer to Melian to them, than she would be a peer.
 
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It’s just my observation that the effects on captives get steadily worse, from Maedhros being stronger than ever, (theorized) Orodreth being broken, Hurin indirectly aiding Morgoth by causing the fall of Doriath, and Maeglin directly aiding Morgoth out of choice.
The problem with Orodreth is that he is not broken. He is a weak character, but he is accepted as king and people tend to listen to him for the most part. It's Gwindor, who is in dishonour and no longer respected. Orodreth is what he is. I think it is good to have different characters and nice to see an Elf, who is just weak.

A big difference between Maedhros and the others, is Maedhros was rescued, where as Maeglin and Hurin were kept until the very end.

Hurin and Maeglin also have very, very different attitudes. Under extreme torture and bribery, Maeglin gives in and promises to help Morgoth. Hurin under the worst torture and extreme bribery never even once asked for mercy. Hurin's will was unbreakable, but his mistake was his pride.
 
Luthien is not in cloudcukooland, she is just an isolationist. Her concerns are Doriath and it's people. She has no real desire to explore outside her country. When her people are threatened like in the case with the spiders, then she acted, but primarily she is focused on her people. In face she won't be too dissimilar than the early Numenorean kings, who will take after her.

I don't think that's the tone that the group is looking for for Luthien. Especially from the Execs (but also from us forum crew), there seems to be a call for her to be heroic, open minded, concerned with the big picture, etc. Her effective invisibility in the PubSil is more of a hindrance than a guide for this character.

(ETA: There seems to have been a big chunk edited in while I was typing, I'll have to take a look at it in more detail.)
 
I don't think that's the tone that the group is looking for for Luthien. Especially from the Execs (but also from us forum crew), there seems to be a call for her to be heroic, open minded, concerned with the big picture, etc. Her effective invisibility in the PubSil is more of a hindrance than a guide for this character.

(ETA: There seems to have been a big chunk edited in while I was typing, I'll have to take a look at it in more detail.)
So why is there the suggestion for Luthien to be out of the loop?
 
I mostly agree with Cellardur's description of Luthien. She is like her mother a voice of reconciliation, unlike her father, but she probably just isn't all that interested in the internal politics of the Noldor. Honestly, I think most Sindar in Doriath don't care much about which princes are which, at least among the Feanorians.
 
I probably should have been more specific with my hippie reference. Recall that in Season 2, Lúthien's main thrust was that life isn't all about fighting and weapons - the Arts and keeping up morale and protecting culture is important, too. Which, yes, is more dancing in the woods stuff, but with a specific purpose and meaning behind it.
 
In some way i would kind of like to interpret our luthien as a sort of idiot savant character... not that she is an idiot in any way, but she lives in her own world, is highly talented... maybe a kind of magical genius wonderchild if you wanna call it that way. I would nt be surprised if her magic skills surprised even her own fairy mother... because, well luthien is not a maia, she is more close to an elf in mind, but has maia-like powers.
 
I can understand the impetus for that direction, but ultimately I think I don't like it. Or rather, I prefer the heroic/capable/intuitive/effective mold for her, over the powerful/oblivious mold.
 
I think that people find it difficult to pair innocence with wisdom. 'An innocent' is generally taken to be synonymous with 'a naive child.' Someone who doesn't know any better, someone whose thinking is simplistic, and someone who is easily tricked or misled.

So, a historical figure like Bonnie Prince Charlie is seen as someone who just didn't understand enough about war and politics to realize that he wasn't prepared to retake Scotland. While he met with some minimum early success...his effort ended badly and he was forced to flee back to the continent.

It's not just that he was young (he was 25)...there's a certain naivete to him. He had some French support, but went forward with his plans even when the ships were lost. He had some Highland support, but not enough to retake the throne of England (which was clearly one of his goals). He had some people with him who understood battles, but he himself did not exactly have a mind for strategy. He was seen as someone who was very idealistic and believed strongly in the divine right of kings, so he just figured it would all work out for him somehow because that is what was right. And so, in the end, he made some disastrous decisions that got a bunch of people killed and ultimately failed in his goal.


We certainly don't want to attach any of that sense of naivete to Lúthien. She's thousands of years old and wise enough. She's no child. And yet...there should be a certain innocence about her. I am reminded of the line 'on Lorien there was no stain' - that land is 'perfect' in a sense, but more importantly...free of the Shadow. That's what Lúthien 'lacks' - she is not hardened by years of battle and betrayal and suffering. She has been able to live her days in peace, and she has no reason to be inherently mistrustful of those she meets. She is, in some ways...untested. That doesn't mean she is easily fooled, but rather that she's not naturally suspicious of everyone she meets. She, like Nienna, will give people a chance.


In her own story, Lúthien is a foil, revealing whether characters fall in the direction of selfless love or possessive lust. Beren and Huan are the former, of course, while Thingol, Daeron (at first), Celegorm, and Morgoth are all examples of the latter. She has been beautiful and the king's daughter her entire life. No doubt she has gotten used to recognizing these reactions. Extremely beautiful (or extremely talented) people get used to admirers...and figure out how to deal with them. Admirers are not the same thing as friends. They...are...hangerson, interested in what they can get out of someone, not having much care for that person as a person. Lots of objectification and attempts at using happen - people want to be associated with the famous person because of what they can get out of it. Songs such as Billy Joel's 'Big Shot' and Led Zeppelin's 'Living Loving Maid' seem to be poking fun at such people...with a lot of acrimony. They don't sound amused.

We don't want Lúthien to be bitter and cynical. She should be someone who has learned to successfully deflect the ill-intentioned gracefully. This is where the 'court manners' will likely come into play. I am not saying we make Lúthien an antebellum Southern lady out of Gone With the Wind. But she must have a method of easily setting aside anyone who would come panting after her. Perhaps it is as simple as being fleet-footed and easily running away/moving out of the way of anyone who could grab her. But...I think it should be at least a little more than that. She naturally enchants people...and I think that single young men would be particularly susceptible to being instantly enchanted upon meeting her. Can she turn that off? Can she simply let them down gently and have that be the end of it? At any rate, we are going to have her be meeting some people this season, and we can show her approach without making a big deal of it. We might show her deflect Daeron at some point, though they should still be good friends.

It will be a challenge to craft a character who is innocent and open....but not naive. And yes, I know she's fooled by Curufin, but Curufin fools a lot of people. He inherited his father's charisma and ability to sway people. The fact that Lúthien accepts the offered help of Celegorm and Curufin is not proof of her being a foolish child, any more than Finrod inviting them to stay in Nargothrond proves him a poor judge of character...it's just a sign that she's not naturally so untrusting as to be instantly suspicious of them.
 
Okay, so we want to have Luthien be smart, powerful, and also kind-hearted. How do we balance all that? It would be too much of a temptation to have her be powerful and ditzy/dumb and unskilled, just look at Bane in Batman and Robin.
 
My take would be to portray Luthien as someone who doesn’t care about power and politics, and who listens to her heart rather than conventional rules. So the court wouldn’t be interesting to her, and if there’s a ceremony or a ritual she would attend but behave in a liberating free way, or not attend at all. She’d be off dancing in some lovely grove she’s found or something. ‘Where’s Luthien?’ could be a recurring question. It’s not that she doesn’t get the system, but other things are more important to her. It’s like she’s an Elf but has the spirit of a Maia.
She could probably do some powerful things, but she’s not really into doing powerful things unless there’s a good reason, and her priorities are very different from almost everyone else’s. She’s a true child of Iluvatar. Perhaps we could show her doing amazing stuff with birds and flowers, while the rest of the Sindar are caught up with the arrival of the Noldor or the news of the Kinslaying, I don’t know.
I think she loves Galadriel (and Galadriel loves her) but they don’t really understand each other. Galadriel has ambition but that’s something alien to Luthien.
 
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I ve talked with my friend about luthien and she brought on some interesting points...

For example we do not have the impression that luthien would be a character who would give ,much on courts and adoration, we also think that luthien and galadriel do not have a lot in common. Luthien does not seem to care much about rulership and power.she is in a way above that.

Also we were thinking about characters in lotr who peoplevseem to love such as legolas, glorfindel or Elrond... one point was that glorfindel for example really does not talk or actually do that much, also legolas is silent in the beginning and does only stand out for very short moments, for example on carahdras. We thought it would be tempting to force luthien in discussions and confrontations with other characters, but such things could easily destroy a lot of the magic which is about her. It can do a character much bad in fact, while a silent, but somehow enchanting character is mor to be liked. Also that everybody loves luthien... in a way everybody loves glorfindel or elrond too, but people seem to keep distance to them, like as if they are somehow too awe inspriring to get too close to them. So i doubt luthien would have many people courting her... maybe Daeron and her mother are the only characters who come really a bit closer to her and are more understanding of her personality. And while thingol is an overcaring , strict father, melian seems to let her go on her own ways and give her all freedom, maybe because courts and kingdoms are also not her natural environment, she is a fairy of nature after all. So i am voting for a more silent and reluctant luthien. Perhaps Galadriel looks for her friendship and is a bit sad because luthien is friendly, loving and understanding, but too different to become a close friend and too removed to be a tutor like melian is. Just some brief thoughts...
 
I am in agreement about Lúthien being indifferent to politics and lacking Galadriel's ambitions to rule. I do think that she and Galadriel could become friends, though. After all, both Melian and Thingol have seen the Two Trees, and Lúthien hasn't, so she might be eager for stories of Valinor. Not heavy-duty unrest of the Noldor stories, but more 'tell me what it's like to walk in the gardens of Lorien.'

I vigorously oppose the idea of having Lúthien be an air-head (not that anyone is suggesting that, but I'm still opposed!). She might be operating on a different level, but she shouldn't come across as dumb. She's not going to be Buffy the Vampire Slayer, a somewhat ditzy blond who just so happens to have super powers and fighting skills. Lúthien is wise, in her own way. I am fine with your average elf of Doriath being in awe of her.

It could be interesting to explore Lúthien and Finrod sharing some song-magic tips with one another.
 
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