Session 4.02 - Season 4 Episode Outlines

I doubt that luthien would need any tips at that, it seems to be in her nature! Luthien, yes a difficult character... so far maybe the one i thi k of as most hard to put up on film for a series..


She is mighty, she no doubt has a great mind, great intelligence and skill... but is she really wise?does she know a lot of things? She might want to know or have read and heard a lot about things, but so far she has not really experienced much outside of her home. No doubt if she ever asks questions those questions would be very deep and clever questions, maybe things people wonder why they have never asked them themselves before..
 
I think that the only one who really understands her is Melian. Then she meets Beren and their union works because Luthien ‘steps down to his level’ or enters the world (in a way) fully for the first time.
I can’t see Luthien wanting tips on song-magic but I can see her singing with Finrod and him being inspired by it.
 
Yes, that's exactly the balance I'm looking for. She's largely uninvolved in politics and war, not because all that complicated stuff is too much for her to handle, but because she's... orthogonal to it (I initially typed "above it" but that's not quite right). It's like that's not even her world. If she needed to or wanted to, she could have a realm of her own and shape it to her liking, probably surpassing her father in worldly wisdom and power. But she doesn't want to, and pretty much never needs to. She could breeze into a room and off-handedly solve a tricky conundrum, and then laugh and float away.
 
I largely agree with MithLuin and Amysrevenge about Luthien. She is wise, but uninterested in politics and power-plays, and unambitious in a way that Galadriel can't relate to. She's not inclined to be suspicious of people. But she's not naive or dumb, she just gives people a chance and watches their behavior to judge them, rather than pre-judging them. In this, she's actually very similar to Galadriel, as she is described in the Shibboleth of Feanor. Luthien is probably very good at seeing how people react to her role as foil, that is she's probably aware that she's a foil who brings out the selflessness or selfishness in others, and has learned to watch for the effects and what they reveal about people.

It's also possible that Thingol hasn't been possessive or overprotective of her until the Noldor arrive. There was a battle and everyone retreated into Menegroth for their safety, but the Noldor are the first people outside the Sindar, whom her father possibly forbids her from interacting with (it seems that he doesn't let her go to the Mereth Aderthad, at least she doesn't attend.)

I don't like the idea of her being silent in the background. In the abstract that could plausibly be her personality, but I don't like the message that could unintentionally send about women being passive. Tolkien doesn't have many non-passive women, so I think we really should be careful to use Luthien instead of pushing her into the background.
 
Both Óscar Romero and Karol Wojtyła (later Pope John Paul II) were viewed as 'non-political' before they were named bishops. This was in part because they were seen as academics without a lot of pastoral experience, and (up to that point) their academics were not the kind of theology that anyone viewed as politically threatening. They both became bishops in countries where the government exerted a lot of influence over the Church, and the Church was very influential to a lot of the people. (Wojtyła in 1950's Poland; Romero in late 1970's El Salvador)

It is safe to say that the Soviets deeply regretted approving Wojtyła as a potential bishop of Krakow at such a young age. The communist government of Poland tried to block his return there, and did not allow him to come on a certain anniversary that they thought would be inflammatory. Instead, Pope John Paul II came for Pentecost, and led the entire country in a nine-day retreat. This led directly to the formation of the union Solidarność. Obviously, he himself wasn't going around forming workers unions or telling people to fight the government. But he could inspire people to bring about change on their own, and this proved rather significant.

Óscar Romero also wound up preaching for change, and was eventually gunned down in his church on account of that.

I'm not saying that either of these bishops should be considered as a model for Lúthien, but I am suggesting that the idea of capturing the spirit of a people and using that to resist evil is a more powerful one than most people traditionally give it credit for. Armies are easy to see and respect the power of. But other methods can also can be hard-hitting and show people the truth that they are defending. Granted, this is typically even more important when a people are being oppressed and their culture is being eroded away or stolen from them to try to force their conformity to a foreign or totalitarian regime. It's not like Doriath has been invaded and is being ruled by a puppet of Morgoth.

So, my concept of Lúthien is that she remembers Beleriand before the return of Morgoth, before the advent of orcs, and before the Girdle. She would want to preserve (there's that elvish impulse) what was vital, essential, and good about the culture of Doriath from that time, and one way to do that is through the Arts. She would want the people to sing their songs and dance under the starlight and remember who they are, and if they are afraid or lose hope, she'd find a way to inspire or encourage them. They can save themselves, but she's going to be the heart of the realm.
 
MithLuin said:
They can save themselves, but she's going to be the heart of the realm.
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I like it. And she can be this as herself, not just as the king's daughter.

I keep having to force myself to look at it this way. Drawing generation lines, as far as who is the boss of who and who is respected by who as a leader, don't make a lot of sense for immortals. Think about it this way. Luthien is X years younger than Thingol. So, X years ago, Thingol was the age Luthien is now. And he was just as much the King then as he is now. So if X year old Thingol was a perfectly respected and revered King, X year old Luthien can also be her own thing, privileged by her relation to the King, but a force by herself, not beholden to him for her influence.
 
I'm not certain I understand what you're saying MithLuin, but I think I like it.

amysrevenge said:
So if X year old Thingol was a perfectly respected and revered King, X year old Luthien can also be her own thing, privileged by her relation to the King, but a force by herself, not beholden to him for her influence.
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That's what Luthien thinks, until Thingol locks her up in a treehouse...

But yes, that's probably the way it's generally supposed to work.
 
Faelivrin said:
I largely agree with MithLuin and Amysrevenge about Luthien. She is wise, but uninterested in politics and power-plays, and unambitious in a way that Galadriel can't relate to. She's not inclined to be suspicious of people. But she's not naive or dumb, she just gives people a chance and watches their behavior to judge them, rather than pre-judging them. In this, she's actually very similar to Galadriel, as she is described in the Shibboleth of Feanor. Luthien is probably very good at seeing how people react to her role as foil, that is she's probably aware that she's a foil who brings out the selflessness or selfishness in others, and has learned to watch for the effects and what they reveal about people.

It's also possible that Thingol hasn't been possessive or overprotective of her until the Noldor arrive. There was a battle and everyone retreated into Menegroth for their safety, but the Noldor are the first people outside the Sindar, whom her father possibly forbids her from interacting with (it seems that he doesn't let her go to the Mereth Aderthad, at least she doesn't attend.)

I don't like the idea of her being silent in the background. In the abstract that could plausibly be her personality, but I don't like the message that could unintentionally send about women being passive. Tolkien doesn't have many non-passive women, so I think we really should be careful to use Luthien instead of pushing her into the background.
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Luthien and possibly Earendil, whose story is much easier to deal with, can't be used a lot. Luthien is far too potent and great. To include her in mundane, things would diminish just how great she is.

I think the question of should Luthien have done more, is one the audience have to be asking. When inspired Luthien is going to accomplish more than the entire Noldor army including the likes of Fingolfin, Finrod, Fingon, Maedhros etc could accomplish with thousands of Noldor. She is going to put Morgoth, the Balrogs and his entire army to sleep. She is NOT a normal elf. Luthien's name after Elbereth is used as a blessing.

Since Lúthien was the noblest, and the most fair and beautiful, of all the Children of Eru remembered in ancient story,

I think Galadriel SHOULD bring up that Luthien can unite the Eldar and be Queen of all the Elves. Luthien could then make it clear she doesn't wish to be queen over the elves, which Galadriel will not understand.

As for Thingol and Luthien, I don't think Thingol was ever commanding Luthien to do anything. Luthien is dutiful to her father and king, until the issue of Beren arises.

On a side note I don't think we have given Thingol the respect or awe he deserves. Thingol is one of the 3 original Kings of all the Eldar. He is the tallest of all the Children of Illuvatar, he alone married a maia and he is the father of Luthien. Not only are young maidens like Nellas in awe when they come to his throne, but even great, great men like Finrod and Beren. Even Finrod, defers to him. Thingol might make mistakes and come to a sad end, but he should always have the majesty and prestige similar to Ingew.
 
cellardur said:
I think Galadriel SHOULD bring up that Luthien can unite the Eldar and be Queen of all the Elves. Luthien could then make it clear she doesn't wish to be queen over the elves, which Galadriel will not understand.
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LoL. This would be a great (and funny) character moment for them both.
G: You could be High Queen of All Eldalie!
L: But why would I want to?
G: ?????

cellardur said:
On a side note I don't think we have given Thingol the respect or awe he deserves. Thingol is one of the 3 original Kings of all the Eldar. He is the tallest of all the Children of Illuvatar, he alone married a maia and he is the father of Luthien. Not only are young maidens like Nellas in awe when they come to his throne, but even great, great men like Finrod and Beren. Even Finrod, defers to him. Thingol might make mistakes and come to a sad end, but he should always have the majesty and prestige similar to Ingew.
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Fair enough point.
 
cellardur said:
Luthien and possibly Earendil, whose story is much easier to deal with, can't be used a lot. Luthien is far too potent and great. To include her in mundane, things would diminish just how great she is.

I think the question of should Luthien have done more, is one the audience have to be asking. When inspired Luthien is going to accomplish more than the entire Noldor army including the likes of Fingolfin, Finrod, Fingon, Maedhros etc could accomplish with thousands of Noldor. She is going to put Morgoth, the Balrogs and his entire army to sleep. She is NOT a normal elf. Luthien's name after Elbereth is used as a blessing.

Since Lúthien was the noblest, and the most fair and beautiful, of all the Children of Eru remembered in ancient story,

I think Galadriel SHOULD bring up that Luthien can unite the Eldar and be Queen of all the Elves. Luthien could then make it clear she doesn't wish to be queen over the elves, which Galadriel will not understand.
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What, like this part of an exchange in Black Panther?
T'Challa: Our weapons will not be used to wage war on the world. It is not our way to be judge, jury, and executioner for people who are not our own.

Erik Killmonger: Not your own? But didn't life start right here on this continent? So ain't all people your people?

T'Challa: I am not king of all people. I am King of Wakanda. And it is my responsibility to make sure our people are safe and that vibranium does not fall into the hands of a person like you.
 
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