Session 4.03 - Frame Narrative for Season 4

Discussion in 'Episode Questions' started by MithLuin, Nov 2, 2018.

  1. cellardur

    cellardur Active Member

    Of course, but she is going to look terrible. I don't think a grandmother rejecting her grandchildren is ever going to look good. It certainly won't gain her sympathy with the audience.
  2. Faelivrin

    Faelivrin Well-Known Member

    I argued strongly that she should not be shown rejecting or abandoning Elwing or her sons. Nimloth's parents need to die, or else leave when they think Nimloth and Dior are perfectly safe.

    But I think her obligation to be a major part of her descendants' lives decreases when there are hundreds or thousands of them, they're all a few dozen generations removed from her, and they've been happily living on a different continent for millennia. She may well believe that if Numenoreans wanted to live among Elves instead of their own kind, they wouldn't have left Middle-earth in the first place.

    Just practically speaking, how could she be a major part of the life of every single one of her descendants, when there are hundreds or thousands of them and they live on Numenor? It doesn't seem like a fair expectation of one Incarnate.
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  3. cellardur

    cellardur Active Member

    This is fine when the Numenoreans are doing well, but they would still want to visit her. It's only natural and there would have to be some reason why Galadriel and Celeborn would not mention this to say Aldarion.

    With her new change of perspective during the Feast of Memorial, it's hard to imagine her not speaking with Aragorn. The proud kings of Gondor and Numenor at their height are one thing, but when her descendants are in need and being raised by elves, then you would expect her to take a role. Even more so when Estel of the Dunedain is staying in the same palace.
  4. Faelivrin

    Faelivrin Well-Known Member

    She can speak to Aragorn and/or Aldarion. There's no reason we can't show her interacting with them. But I don't think that she's a horrible person if she doesn't somehow live with them all the time, cook for them, help raise their children, give them money, etc.

    As for Aragorn, he is not living in Mirkwood. He lives in Rivendell, as in the books. It is first of all not really fair to expect her to give up her home, and secondly would raise questions such as "Why is this person going out of her way to give up her home and immediate family, to live with me?" In SilmFilm Estel's identity is secret during his childhood, just as in the book. Deliberately breaching his secret identity, by making a big public deal about their exceedingly distant relation, would not do him any favors.

    Aragorn needs a family. He doesn't necessarily need to have every single person even distantly related to him around constantly. Gilraen's other relatives don't give up their nomadic lives as Rangers to live in Rivendell with Estel, either. Are they terrible bad people?

    People have lives and purposes and duties.
  5. Ange1e4e5

    Ange1e4e5 Well-Known Member

    Who’s Aldarion again?
  6. Faelivrin

    Faelivrin Well-Known Member

    A King of Numenor who visited Middle-earth, cut down a lot of forests, and started a genocide against the ancestors of the Dunlendings (which behavior likely wouldn't endear him to Green-elves! Celeborn's sister isn't obligated to like her descendants if their behavior is against her morals).

    Also I'm not convinced that every single one of her descendants would want to visit her. I don't get the impression that every king of Gondor went to Rivendell to meet Elrond. They were busy, and didn't know him, and some later Gondorians think Elves are weird and creepy.
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  7. cellardur

    cellardur Active Member

    I am not saying she needs to live with them, but she needs to interact with them.

    I meant Aragorn would be staying in the same palace when he visited Thranduil and Legoals. It's not about her spending every second with her descendants, but she would have to be a wise figure they would go to and seek advice from. The wiser and less proud descendants are going to see her as a second Elrond, but in many ways greater, because she is their ancestor. Elrond and his children's relationship changes. Now we have to assume the Children of Elrond would visit Mirkwood fairly often for an elf or have extended stays, which changes the dynamic of their relationship to Legolas.

    Gilraen's other relatives are directly under Aragorn's command. Aragorn has a strong relationship with them, but it's different since he is their Chief and potential king.

    I might be wrong, but Legolas more than anyone else in the Fellowship was quick to defer to Aragorn and not just due to respect.

    Elrond was very much 'uncle Elrond' to the Dunedain. Celeborn's sister would be 'grandma so and so.'
  8. Ange1e4e5

    Ange1e4e5 Well-Known Member

    More like great-aunt.

    Maybe she introduces Aragorn to Legolas and helps start their friendship. By the time of LoTR, Legolas is familiar enough with Aragorn that he jumps to defend him against Boromir.
  9. cellardur

    cellardur Active Member

    As I said I much prefer if she is not a direct ancestor.

    Legolas defends Aragorn in the film only. In the book it's Bilbo. There are lots of comments from Legolas to show how much he looks up to Aragorn.
  10. Faelivrin

    Faelivrin Well-Known Member

    @cellardur I don't think anyone has said Celeborn's sister can't interact with Aragorn or Elrond. However, I don't think it's at all plausible for them to spend large amounts of time with her when they're busy with warfare. That's often the nature of war.

    When did this happen? Do you mean when he brought Gollum to Mirkwood? He was very busy with a lot of Ranger business and helping Gandalf save the world. I doubt he had time to take a long, extended vacation with anybody. He seldom even visited his own mother.

    As for Elrond visiting people in the Third Age, I suspect that a ringbearer cannot guard their valley against attacking armies while they aren't personally in it. Galadriel occasionally leaves Lothlorien for a Grey Council meeting, but she didn't go to Rivendell even to visit Celebrian when she was rescued from Orcs, and I think surely if Galadriel could have visited her daughter, she would have. Instead, she was in Lorien using her ring to help Eorl's Ride to Calenardhon. So no, I don't think Elrond has the option for visits that aren't absolutely, unavoidably necessary for the war effort.

    In the Second Age, Elrond was free to visit her and likely would have, at least before he became besieged in Rivendell c. 1697.
  11. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    By inventing new characters, we are free to invent how they interact with the existing storyline. The Second Age is *very* lightly sketched. We have the opportunity to introduce Celeborn's sister to whomever we want (within reason), so long as we keep her a denizen of King Oropher's Greenwood the Great. She can visit ents, or later meet Radagast, or, yes, meet some of her mortal relatives. If we have reasons to tell those stories.

    Can she meet Aragorn when he delivers Gollum to Mirkwood? Yes, certainly; we could show a conversation between the two of them if we wanted to. But it seems rather unlikely that they would have met before or that Aragorn would know who she is. She'd have to reveal herself, saying that he looks very like his distant ancestor x, referring to whatever story we involved her in before. He'd be surprised, but I wouldn't see any reason to make him shun her or anything like that.

    As for her attitude towards mortals....if she is Nimloth's mother, her daughter married a mortal (Dior) and then died, suffering the fate of being sundered from her husband and her children until the end of Arda. It is quite possible that she'd have some residual bitterness about that she'd have to work through! (Elrond and Elros and Elrond's children get a choice. Elwing had a choice. Dior...seemingly did not, and regardless, Nimloth is not Lúthien and does *not* have the choice to become mortal.) If we do want to have her visit Celeborn in Lothlorien during a later season and meet up with Arwen, we can have the two of them have a conversation about the consequences of loving mortals. Again...if we wanted to.

    The purpose of inventing a new character is not to then subtract this character out of all possible future stories, but to see how and where and when this character might fit. We likely won't use her much, but she should be there, and we will likely find things to do with her, people for her to meet. Her identity as a Green Elf is likely to be more significant than her bloodline, but we'll see.
    Faelivrin likes this.
  12. Ange1e4e5

    Ange1e4e5 Well-Known Member

    To quote Nick Young from Crazy Rich Asians, “There’s half [of your family] you like, and then there’s the other half.” The latter half of Numenorean Kings may fall into the latter category, particularly Ar-Pharazon. You don’t earn many favors by forcing your cousin to marry you and raping her, practicing human sacrifice and declaring war on the Gods.
  13. Faelivrin

    Faelivrin Well-Known Member

    Also note that Elrond is a famous and active leader and historical figure. Celeborn's sister is an obscure Elf and very unlikely to do anything historically noteworthy. It's very possible that she was only mentioned in fusty musty genealogies that hardly any Numenorean ever looked at, and that those records were lost in the Downfall. Quite possibly Aragorn has never heard of her.
  14. amysrevenge

    amysrevenge Well-Known Member

    I mean, it is literally a dead end in the family tree in the PubSil, which we are led to believe is the extent of what the Men of the West knew of old. We have Dior == Nimloth, and branches up from Dior and down from the pair, but up from Nimloth is a dead end. We know nothing about Nimloth other than her name and some potential background in the HoME that isn't canon, that we can choose to use or choose to change, and that we can choose to add to the knowledge of the Men of the West, or we can choose not to.
    MithLuin likes this.
  15. cellardur

    cellardur Active Member

    Focusing just on Elrond ignores the rest of the family ie his children. They should be visiting a lot. I do agree, Galadriel and Elrond did not seem to leave their areas, much, but Gandalf did.

    Yes we have at least one instance of where Aragorn went to Thranduil and considering he took them there it suggest he had been before.

    I think this is done on purpose by Tolkien. Elrond and Elros have no surviving Elvish ancestors in ME. The same applies with their line through Thingol and Nimloth. I don't think is done by accident, because it would change the outcome of a number of events.

    We can easily get around Thingol and Finwe's parents by assuming they stayed near Cuivienyarna and the great journey was too much for them to ever come back into the story, or they died before hand. When we are creating new living ancestors we are going to have alter things greatly.
    This is not the Numenorean way. We are told the Great Houses knew even the lines of Beor and Hador, which they were related. Numenor was very focused on their ancestry and the Line of Elrosl, especially would have been known to them. As I said the Numenoreans in Exile lost a lot of this knowledge, but the Chieftans of the Dunedain had such a close relationship with Elrond, he would be bound to tell them.
  16. cellardur

    cellardur Active Member

    This was not my point. My point was not that we couldn't create a story for her in the 2nd Age where she learns her lesson, but rather it does not flow well.

    We will meet Celeborn's sister as this woman, who is urging reconciliation. At the same time in the Season we will see her as the exact opposite sort of character. Usually the Frame relates to main story of the season. Young Aragorn is paralleled with rash Feanor. Arwen's question on where Elves should be is related to the question the Elves ask before their journey.

    However, in this season there is no relation and just a contradiction. Celeborn's sister will be completely different from what we see in Season 4. It will take until Season 15 or whenever we get there to find out why she changed. For the audience this is a big disconnect. This Season will not tell the events of why she has changed her opinion, but just show her a changed person, whilst focusing on the actions she never learnt from.
  17. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    Men do not appear until Season 5, and thus we will not see that side of her character until then. The parallel between the Frame and the main storyline is the Noldor-Sindar conflict (and more tangentially the intra-Noldor conflict and the Dwarf-Petty-dwarf conflict) with the conflict between the Elves/Dwarves/Men of Mirkwood/Erebor/Dale in the immediate aftermath of the Battle of Five Armies. Sure, they united during the battle against common foes of an army of orcs and a dragon, but in the day-to-day? That's trickier. The concept of an uneasy peace because there are grievances to be forgiven....that's what we're focusing on.

    As a Green Elf, Celeborn's sister is not part of the Noldor/Sindar conflict, but has the view of an outsider. She isn't personally harmed by the loss of the Teleri (unlike Thingol, whose brother died in the Kinslaying, or Círdan, whose closest friend and many people he considered his people were the victims). We will only show her briefly - at the Mereth Aderthad and at Celeborn's wedding - BOTH of these events are 'peace between Noldor and Sindar' celebrations, and thus she will be affirming the peace and the themes of forgiveness. There is no contradiction in Season 4.

    Then, Men come on the scene, and she's not as happy. We'll have to figure out why, and she'll have to work through her issues with Men at some point. Then, by the time we get to the foundation of Dale, she can be happier about the whole situation. Sure, the audience might be surprised that this person they met as an older and wiser advocate for 'can't we all just get along' was not always that way in her younger days, but that's not a problem...UNLESS we drop the ball and don't tell that story.
    Faelivrin and amysrevenge like this.
  18. cellardur

    cellardur Active Member

    She is going to have do a complete 180, because she will be shown to hate dwarves too and take part in a ware against them.

    I guess there is a lot to work with, because she is going to have issues with dwarves tree cutters and murders of Luthien's kin, men tree cutters and Feanorians murderers of Dior (who grew up with the Green Elves.)

    It's like Meneldil giving a lesson about why you shouldn't secede, when it worked out well for her.

    Basically Celeborn's sister is going to be saying 'I never liked those dwarves and they murdered Thingol, so my friends and I had to go and kill them.'
    I never liked those Feanorians and they went and murdered by good friend Dior, his wife and their little boys.

    Her entire story is one of vindication of her initial dislikes.

    Though I guess it does leave the possibility in the 2nd Age for us to have a story where she is forced to work with Celebrimbor and Durin's folk.
    I don't get this sentiment. The Sindar and Nandor are only different in their beliefs and style of lifestyle. They are the same group of people and often members of the same family. We are emphasising this by having Celeborn's sister be one of the Nandor. Why exactly would the Sindar be more annoyed with the 1st Kinslaying than the Nandor? It's their Teleri relatives being slaughtered just like it's the Sindar.
    My problem is that it's a very long wait. Her story will appear to sow her right in her decisions until the 2nd Age.
  19. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    The alternative is to have her be the voice of conciliation among the Green Elves, while another character who is more vindictive wins over the others and chooses their actions.
  20. Faelivrin

    Faelivrin Well-Known Member

    We have already discussed Arwen visiting Celeborn's sister, in Season 4, I'm pretty sure on this very thread. Please read this thread before accusing people of ignoring something. It's very frustrating to discuss this topic with you when it feels like you haven't read our plans.

    You don't understand my point. The Grey Wanderer has no home. He isn't the sole defense standing between a well-known Elven city and the armies of Mordor. If he leaves Bree to go to Gondor, thousands of Orcs aren't going to raze Bree. He also isn't related to Celeborn.

    The other things you bring up have no relevance to Season 4, which is about the time before Men arrive, and about one event 7 years after the Battle of Five Armies. There are no Numenoreans in Season 4. Estel is a teenager confined to Rivendell and won't even appear this season. We can figure out their relationships (if any) to Celeborn's sister when we get to a season that includes them.

    I too would like Celeborn's brother Galathil to be Nimloth's father. But I don't think we need to obsess about every single relative of Celeborn making a long visit to his sister during the Season 4 frame. Family vacations are not the focus of Season 4, and the frame doesn't have time for extra subplots.

    Nothing of the sort is happening this season, nor ever. The only Elven invasion of a Dwarven kingdom is the Battle of Five Armies, which happened in Season 2. We have not made any plans to include Celeborn's sister in that battle, or to show her killing Dwarves in cold blood at any other time. On the contrary, as a voice of reconciliation with the Dwarves in the frame, she obviously did not help invade Erebor.
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019 at 1:07 AM

Share This Page