One plan is for Celeborn to have two siblings, one as the father of Nimloth; he would be KIA in the Second Kinslaying. The other sibling, who would be female, would join up with the Wood Elves at an earlier point.This is why I think we need to make Thranduil a child born in the 1st Age. He needs to have seen Doriath, seen Luthien and seen Menegroth. It's vital for his character and Legolas' character in my opinion. Thranduil needs to have seen the majesty and beauty of Doriath. I think it works even better if he was a child when it was destroyed. This way as a small child he saw the dwarves destroy his home.
Not to mention Legolas has a very healthy respect and love for Luthien. From the story, we can gather Legolas did not meet Luthien, so he must have got his stories and legends about her from somewhere. The awe and high esteem he holds Aragorn in, accepting unquestionably as his leader again hints to the respect he holds for Luthien. I think Thranduil is the one, who should have raised Legolas on legends of Luthien, Beren and Dior.
I would like to add that making Celegorm's sister an ancester of Elwing, is going to have huge ramifications and something we should avoid. It completely changes the dynamics of Elrond and the Numenoreans in exile. Elrond is no longer the oldest member and protect of the family, it is now Celegorm's sister. The connection to her would just be strong. Whilst Elrond is not a direct ancestor, Celegorm's sister would be. I think Tolkien intentionally had no surviving ancestors for this reason. The Kings of Gondor, the kings or Arnor and even the Numenorean kings are going to hold their ancestress in high honour and take her counsel.
That's what I personally think works best.I am okay with theanduil being a child in the late first age and legolas being born after the last alliance..
I think the idea of Celeborn having a sister surviving is a good idea and a nice way to tell the story. So I am in full support of this version where, Elrond is the oldest of the line and the Numenoreans have no direct descendant to look up to.One plan is for Celeborn to have two siblings, one as the father of Nimloth; he would be KIA in the Second Kinslaying. The other sibling, who would be female, would join up with the Wood Elves.
One possibility is that the Elves of Doriath and Gondolin, since they’re more isolated from the War due to the Girdle of Melian and the secrecy/Encircling Mountains of Gondolin, might be more inclined to have children.I agree that 10 year old Thranduil in the court of Dior is pretty good for the narrative - but does that violate any of the longstanding Elven policies about having children in wartime?
And I think I don't see the same issue of having, say, the mother of Nimloth still alive into the Third Age as you do cellardur. Elves are by nature different about the whole ancestor/descendant thing, and if the surviving mother of Nimloth didn't wish to take on a matriarchal role, she wouldn't. All those family trees in Numenor would look just like the one we have in the PubSil, with just this branch off from Dior to Nimloth, with nothing back from her.
Not really, because we know Elves did have children in Doriath and Gondolin. Nimloth, Idril, Aranwe and the parents of Nellas. Then outside these cities we have Gil-galad and Finduilas. So it's not really an issue.I agree that 10 year old Thranduil in the court of Dior is pretty good for the narrative - but does that violate any of the longstanding Elven policies about having children in wartime?
And I think I don't see the same issue of having, say, the mother of Nimloth still alive into the Third Age as you do cellardur. Elves are by nature different about the whole ancestor/descendant thing, and if the surviving mother of Nimloth didn't wish to take on a matriarchal role, she wouldn't. All those family trees in Numenor would look just like the one we have in the PubSil, with just this branch off from Dior to Nimloth, with nothing back from her.
This is a fairly modern development, with people waiting longer and longer to have children later on in their lives. Throughout history it was not unusual to have children in your late teens. Personally I don't think there is a huge difference between a 55 year old and a 40 year old.The primary reason is one of time. I've talked about it at length elsewhere. For the duration of our lives, I'll be in a different stage of life than my daughter. When she's a child, I'm an adult. When she's an adult, I'm a senior. I'll always have a store of wisdom and advice for her, because even if I live to be 100, I'll still have lived 50% more life than she has.
For Elves, they spend 99% of their lives in the same stage of life as their great grand children - ie. they are all adults.
It's an entirely different mechanic. Other than being 0.1% older, what does Finarfin have over Finrod, for example, when it comes to default wisdom, life experience, authority, etc? (Related: did Finarfin "abandon" his children when he returned to Valinor?)
It's observed in the diaspora of Elves. In our version of the decision to head West from Cuivienen, families were divided. Some became Eldar, others remained Avari, even dividing parents from (adult) children. And along the way, the split of the Teleri into sub-groups need not have kept families together either. We are having Celeborn and his sister be part of different sub-groups who haven't seen each other for centuries. Neither of them abandoned each other, nor would their parents (if they survived, a contentious issue haha) have abandoned one or the other depending on which group they stayed with.
It's not "abandoning" to allow your adult children to live their lives, while you live your life. If this aunt/mother of Nimloth went east before the end of the 1st Age with Oropher, with a fully grown up adult niece/daughter left behind by her own choice, that's par for the course. The same situation has played out during every division of the Elves since they left Cuivienen.
But they're not her descendants, per se. The idea we're having is that she's already left to be with the Wood-Elves.This is a fairly modern development, with people waiting longer and longer to have children later on in their lives. Throughout history it was not unusual to have children in your late teens. Personally I don't think there is a huge difference between a 55 year old and a 40 year old.
I don't see how being at a similar stage effects the dynamic of parents and children. It's not just a matter of wisdom, but rather they educated you, looked after you and are responsible for your creation. These key things never change and elves feel this as they feel everything more deeply.
There's also a big difference between making a personal decision, with MUCH MUCH sorrow, than just choosing to ignore your descendants. When elves part from their children we are told at how heartbreaking it is. It's not an easy decision and it's a pain they bare for the rest of their lives.
Celeborn and his sister being separated for a a few centuries due to different choices is not the same as Celeborn's sister not taking an active part in her descendants lives, many of whom will need guidance and looking after.
We know the Numenoreans were obsessed with genealogy. They would find a way to know. Not to mention she should be taking an interest herself.I'm OK with Silvan-elves taking no interest whatsoever in most Mortals, to the degree that the Numenoreans don't know at first that she's even alive. That said, I want Celeborn's brother and parents to die in the Second Kinslaying, and his brother to be Nimloth's father.
Having Thranduil born before the first fall of Doriath is an idea I'd accept, although it raises a question of how old Legolas is and how long Thranduil waited before having children. The early Second Age was peaceful enough.
That said, there was a suggestion that Oropher should marry a Nando related to Lenwe, to give the Mirkwood Elves some reason to accept his leadership, and I really want to use that idea. Since none of Denethor's kin survived in Ossiriand, that doesn't seem compatible with Thranduil being born in Doriath.
Well if she is the mother of Nimloth then they will be her descendants. There is no getting around this. If Nimloth is her niece, then it changes a lot.But they're not her descendants, per se. The idea we're having is that she's already left to be with the Wood-Elves.
Nimloth would be her niece.We know the Numenoreans were obsessed with genealogy. They would find a way to know. Not to mention she should be taking an interest herself.
Legoals can be of age with the Sons of Elrond and Arwen. Elrond himself would wait until the 3rd age to have children. Thranduil could be a similar case to Elrond. Not having the time to court the woman he loved.
The Silvan Elves, as a whole except the Sindar's as their kinds. Amdir and Oropher are both excepted. I remember Tolkien writing something on the matter, but I will need to find it.
Well if she is the mother of Nimloth then they will be her descendants. There is no getting around this. If Nimloth is her niece, then it changes a lot.
I am fine with this.Nimloth would be her niece.
The initial idea was to have Celeborn's sister be the mother of Nimloth. The Numenoreans won't care about Celeborn's sister anymore than they would care about Celeborn, but an ancestress is a different matter.Just because the Numenoreans know Celeborn's sister is alive doesn't mean that a Silvan-elf wants to hang out with Mortals. Wood-elves are shown by Tolkien to be very insular and uninterested in other kindreds.
I still would rather Nimloth's parents stay in Doriath near her, and are killed. I think it's more significant that they would be leaving their daughter behind (in a dangerous place). Granted she's an adult.