Session 4.03 - Frame Narrative for Season 4

I am okay with theanduil being a child in the late first age and legolas being born after the last alliance..
 
This is why I think we need to make Thranduil a child born in the 1st Age. He needs to have seen Doriath, seen Luthien and seen Menegroth. It's vital for his character and Legolas' character in my opinion. Thranduil needs to have seen the majesty and beauty of Doriath. I think it works even better if he was a child when it was destroyed. This way as a small child he saw the dwarves destroy his home.

Not to mention Legolas has a very healthy respect and love for Luthien. From the story, we can gather Legolas did not meet Luthien, so he must have got his stories and legends about her from somewhere. The awe and high esteem he holds Aragorn in, accepting unquestionably as his leader again hints to the respect he holds for Luthien. I think Thranduil is the one, who should have raised Legolas on legends of Luthien, Beren and Dior.

I would like to add that making Celegorm's sister an ancester of Elwing, is going to have huge ramifications and something we should avoid. It completely changes the dynamics of Elrond and the Numenoreans in exile. Elrond is no longer the oldest member and protect of the family, it is now Celegorm's sister. The connection to her would just be strong. Whilst Elrond is not a direct ancestor, Celegorm's sister would be. I think Tolkien intentionally had no surviving ancestors for this reason. The Kings of Gondor, the kings or Arnor and even the Numenorean kings are going to hold their ancestress in high honour and take her counsel.
One plan is for Celeborn to have two siblings, one as the father of Nimloth; he would be KIA in the Second Kinslaying. The other sibling, who would be female, would join up with the Wood Elves at an earlier point.
 
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I am okay with theanduil being a child in the late first age and legolas being born after the last alliance..
That's what I personally think works best.
One plan is for Celeborn to have two siblings, one as the father of Nimloth; he would be KIA in the Second Kinslaying. The other sibling, who would be female, would join up with the Wood Elves.
I think the idea of Celeborn having a sister surviving is a good idea and a nice way to tell the story. So I am in full support of this version where, Elrond is the oldest of the line and the Numenoreans have no direct descendant to look up to.
 
I agree that 10 year old Thranduil in the court of Dior is pretty good for the narrative - but does that violate any of the longstanding Elven policies about having children in wartime?

And I think I don't see the same issue of having, say, the mother of Nimloth still alive into the Third Age as you do cellardur. Elves are by nature different about the whole ancestor/descendant thing, and if the surviving mother of Nimloth didn't wish to take on a matriarchal role, she wouldn't. All those family trees in Numenor would look just like the one we have in the PubSil, with just this branch off from Dior to Nimloth, with nothing back from her.
 
I agree that 10 year old Thranduil in the court of Dior is pretty good for the narrative - but does that violate any of the longstanding Elven policies about having children in wartime?

And I think I don't see the same issue of having, say, the mother of Nimloth still alive into the Third Age as you do cellardur. Elves are by nature different about the whole ancestor/descendant thing, and if the surviving mother of Nimloth didn't wish to take on a matriarchal role, she wouldn't. All those family trees in Numenor would look just like the one we have in the PubSil, with just this branch off from Dior to Nimloth, with nothing back from her.
One possibility is that the Elves of Doriath and Gondolin, since they’re more isolated from the War due to the Girdle of Melian and the secrecy/Encircling Mountains of Gondolin, might be more inclined to have children.
 
The more I think about it (I haven't thought about the practical on-screen effects of this until now), the more this seems like another of those big obvious differences between Mortals and Immortals. Us dumb mortals have to keep having kids no matter what's going on, but those guys don't. So for big chunks of the 1st Age, pretty much all of it after the Siege ends many of the Elven communities will be oddly childless, especially once we start having Men in the picture.

I suppose we see this exact thing in the Jackson movies, as there aren't any Elf children... anywhere?... while the Man places, especially Rohan and Laketown/Dale, are teeming with brats.
 
Yes, people have seemed very willing to give Doriath a pass on the 'no marriage/kids in wartime' stipulation because they are protected by the Girdle of Melian and thus living in peace, even if outside their lands 'the night is dark and full of terrors.' So we are more focused on making that part of the Exiled Noldor culture...with Gondolin and Nargothrond being exceptions for the same reasons.

After the Girdle fails and Melian departs, I doubt Doriath would enjoy the same concept of 'peace time' that they had before, so we might want to be careful about having the Doriath ruled by Dior full of children.

The genealogy in question is Oropher --> Thranduil --> Legolas. Oropher will rule Mirkwood in the Second Age and die in the Last Alliance. He *definitely* needs to be an elf of Doriath, and we have to come up with a story of how he leaves/survives Doriath and chooses to go east. I'm not as certain that Thranduil needs to exist before the Second Age, but I recognize that he's a popular character and people might be impatient to establish him as soon as possible. And it would be neat to have living memories of Doriath in the Third Age, regardless of whether that is Thranduil or other members of his court (Celeborn's sister, certainly).

I don't see Green Elf culture being too caught up on establishing their hereditary links to outsiders or taking much interest in mortals. I'm not too concerned as to whether Celeborn's sister is Nimloth's mother or aunt. As someone who lived in Ossiriand and Mirkwood for the majority of the history of Middle-earth, she's not likely to be too involved.
 
I agree that 10 year old Thranduil in the court of Dior is pretty good for the narrative - but does that violate any of the longstanding Elven policies about having children in wartime?

And I think I don't see the same issue of having, say, the mother of Nimloth still alive into the Third Age as you do cellardur. Elves are by nature different about the whole ancestor/descendant thing, and if the surviving mother of Nimloth didn't wish to take on a matriarchal role, she wouldn't. All those family trees in Numenor would look just like the one we have in the PubSil, with just this branch off from Dior to Nimloth, with nothing back from her.
Not really, because we know Elves did have children in Doriath and Gondolin. Nimloth, Idril, Aranwe and the parents of Nellas. Then outside these cities we have Gil-galad and Finduilas. So it's not really an issue.

Where do you get the bolded from? The text and Tolkien's words on the subject implies quite the opposite. Elves are even more attached and closer to their children/descendants than humans.

We rarely see interaction between elves and their grandchildren, but when we do they are very close. Arwen practically lives with Galadriel half the time, whist Finwe was close to all his descendants.

Aragorn said it best when he said
Good and evil have not changed since yesteryear, nor are they one thing among Elves and another among Men.

Abandoning your descendants is a bad thing to do. In addition elves have fewer children and impart some of their own power in the creation of them. Their bond to children and descendants like with everything in this Arda is stronger than humans.

The Family Trees in Numenor didn't branch off, they were well aware of their ancestors, but a lot was lost in the downfall. A living relative is different especially when Aragorn is visiting. The Kings in exile would certainly no and act on it.
 
The primary reason is one of time. I've talked about it at length elsewhere. For the duration of our lives, I'll be in a different stage of life than my daughter. When she's a child, I'm an adult. When she's an adult, I'm a senior. I'll always have a store of wisdom and advice for her, because even if I live to be 100, I'll still have lived 50% more life than she has.

For Elves, they spend 99% of their lives in the same stage of life as their great grand children - ie. they are all adults.

It's an entirely different mechanic. Other than being 0.1% older, what does Finarfin have over Finrod, for example, when it comes to default wisdom, life experience, authority, etc? (Related: did Finarfin "abandon" his children when he returned to Valinor?)

It's observed in the diaspora of Elves. In our version of the decision to head West from Cuivienen, families were divided. Some became Eldar, others remained Avari, even dividing parents from (adult) children. And along the way, the split of the Teleri into sub-groups need not have kept families together either. We are having Celeborn and his sister be part of different sub-groups who haven't seen each other for centuries. Neither of them abandoned each other, nor would their parents (if they survived, a contentious issue haha) have abandoned one or the other depending on which group they stayed with.

It's not "abandoning" to allow your adult children to live their lives, while you live your life. If this aunt/mother of Nimloth went east before the end of the 1st Age with Oropher, with a fully grown up adult niece/daughter left behind by her own choice, that's par for the course. The same situation has played out during every division of the Elves since they left Cuivienen.
 
The primary reason is one of time. I've talked about it at length elsewhere. For the duration of our lives, I'll be in a different stage of life than my daughter. When she's a child, I'm an adult. When she's an adult, I'm a senior. I'll always have a store of wisdom and advice for her, because even if I live to be 100, I'll still have lived 50% more life than she has.

For Elves, they spend 99% of their lives in the same stage of life as their great grand children - ie. they are all adults.

It's an entirely different mechanic. Other than being 0.1% older, what does Finarfin have over Finrod, for example, when it comes to default wisdom, life experience, authority, etc? (Related: did Finarfin "abandon" his children when he returned to Valinor?)

It's observed in the diaspora of Elves. In our version of the decision to head West from Cuivienen, families were divided. Some became Eldar, others remained Avari, even dividing parents from (adult) children. And along the way, the split of the Teleri into sub-groups need not have kept families together either. We are having Celeborn and his sister be part of different sub-groups who haven't seen each other for centuries. Neither of them abandoned each other, nor would their parents (if they survived, a contentious issue haha) have abandoned one or the other depending on which group they stayed with.

It's not "abandoning" to allow your adult children to live their lives, while you live your life. If this aunt/mother of Nimloth went east before the end of the 1st Age with Oropher, with a fully grown up adult niece/daughter left behind by her own choice, that's par for the course. The same situation has played out during every division of the Elves since they left Cuivienen.
This is a fairly modern development, with people waiting longer and longer to have children later on in their lives. Throughout history it was not unusual to have children in your late teens. Personally I don't think there is a huge difference between a 55 year old and a 40 year old.

I don't see how being at a similar stage effects the dynamic of parents and children. It's not just a matter of wisdom, but rather they educated you, looked after you and are responsible for your creation. These key things never change and elves feel this as they feel everything more deeply.

There's also a big difference between making a personal decision, with MUCH MUCH sorrow, than just choosing to ignore your descendants. When elves part from their children we are told at how heartbreaking it is. It's not an easy decision and it's a pain they bare for the rest of their lives.

Celeborn and his sister being separated for a a few centuries due to different choices is not the same as Celeborn's sister not taking an active part in her descendants lives, many of whom will need guidance and looking after.
 
I'm OK with Silvan-elves taking no interest whatsoever in most Mortals, to the degree that the Numenoreans don't know at first that she's even alive. That said, I want Celeborn's brother and parents to die in the Second Kinslaying, and his brother to be Nimloth's father.

Having Thranduil born before the first fall of Doriath is an idea I'd accept, although it raises a question of how old Legolas is and how long Thranduil waited before having children. The early Second Age was peaceful enough.

That said, there was a suggestion that Oropher should marry a Nando related to Lenwe, to give the Mirkwood Elves some reason to accept his leadership, and I really want to use that idea. Since none of Denethor's kin survived in Ossiriand, that doesn't seem compatible with Thranduil being born in Doriath.
 
This is a fairly modern development, with people waiting longer and longer to have children later on in their lives. Throughout history it was not unusual to have children in your late teens. Personally I don't think there is a huge difference between a 55 year old and a 40 year old.

I don't see how being at a similar stage effects the dynamic of parents and children. It's not just a matter of wisdom, but rather they educated you, looked after you and are responsible for your creation. These key things never change and elves feel this as they feel everything more deeply.

There's also a big difference between making a personal decision, with MUCH MUCH sorrow, than just choosing to ignore your descendants. When elves part from their children we are told at how heartbreaking it is. It's not an easy decision and it's a pain they bare for the rest of their lives.

Celeborn and his sister being separated for a a few centuries due to different choices is not the same as Celeborn's sister not taking an active part in her descendants lives, many of whom will need guidance and looking after.
But they're not her descendants, per se. The idea we're having is that she's already left to be with the Wood-Elves.
 
I'm OK with Silvan-elves taking no interest whatsoever in most Mortals, to the degree that the Numenoreans don't know at first that she's even alive. That said, I want Celeborn's brother and parents to die in the Second Kinslaying, and his brother to be Nimloth's father.

Having Thranduil born before the first fall of Doriath is an idea I'd accept, although it raises a question of how old Legolas is and how long Thranduil waited before having children. The early Second Age was peaceful enough.

That said, there was a suggestion that Oropher should marry a Nando related to Lenwe, to give the Mirkwood Elves some reason to accept his leadership, and I really want to use that idea. Since none of Denethor's kin survived in Ossiriand, that doesn't seem compatible with Thranduil being born in Doriath.
We know the Numenoreans were obsessed with genealogy. They would find a way to know. Not to mention she should be taking an interest herself.

Legoals can be of age with the Sons of Elrond and Arwen. Elrond himself would wait until the 3rd age to have children. Thranduil could be a similar case to Elrond. Not having the time to court the woman he loved.

The Silvan Elves, as a whole except the Sindar's as their kinds. Amdir and Oropher are both excepted. I remember Tolkien writing something on the matter, but I will need to find it.
But they're not her descendants, per se. The idea we're having is that she's already left to be with the Wood-Elves.
Well if she is the mother of Nimloth then they will be her descendants. There is no getting around this. If Nimloth is her niece, then it changes a lot.
 
We know the Numenoreans were obsessed with genealogy. They would find a way to know. Not to mention she should be taking an interest herself.

Legoals can be of age with the Sons of Elrond and Arwen. Elrond himself would wait until the 3rd age to have children. Thranduil could be a similar case to Elrond. Not having the time to court the woman he loved.

The Silvan Elves, as a whole except the Sindar's as their kinds. Amdir and Oropher are both excepted. I remember Tolkien writing something on the matter, but I will need to find it.

Well if she is the mother of Nimloth then they will be her descendants. There is no getting around this. If Nimloth is her niece, then it changes a lot.
Nimloth would be her niece.
 
Just because the Numenoreans know Celeborn's sister is alive doesn't mean that a Silvan-elf wants to hang out with Mortals. Wood-elves are shown by Tolkien to be very insular and uninterested in other kindreds.

I still would rather Nimloth's parents stay in Doriath near her, and are killed. I think it's more significant that they would be leaving their daughter behind (in a dangerous place). Granted she's an adult.
 
Nimloth would be her niece.
I am fine with this.
Just because the Numenoreans know Celeborn's sister is alive doesn't mean that a Silvan-elf wants to hang out with Mortals. Wood-elves are shown by Tolkien to be very insular and uninterested in other kindreds.

I still would rather Nimloth's parents stay in Doriath near her, and are killed. I think it's more significant that they would be leaving their daughter behind (in a dangerous place). Granted she's an adult.
The initial idea was to have Celeborn's sister be the mother of Nimloth. The Numenoreans won't care about Celeborn's sister anymore than they would care about Celeborn, but an ancestress is a different matter.
 
My point is that whether or not the Numenoreans care, they cannot force Celeborn's sister to care if she doesn't. There are no mind-control rays in Arda.
 
To bring it back to the Frame story:

We are planning to have Celeborn's sister (as yet unnamed) be an elf of Mirkwood during the Festival of Remembrance (or whatever we're calling the 7 year memorial of the Battle of Five Armies). She is someone who is old enough to remember the Noldor/Sindar conflict over the Kinslaying personally, but while still maintaining a bit of an outsider's perspective (she was not a key player at the time). She would appear in a few Frame scenes to be an elvish voice of reconciliation in counterpoint to Thranduil's rather entrenched opinion of Dwarves. The main voice of reconciliation will (of course) be Bilbo (with maybe a little help from Gandalf?), so she's just there for the 'private' elf conversations to make it clear that not all of Thranduil's people share his views, and that it does not require ignorance of history to be as conciliatory as Bilbo is being. She would be a respected member of Thranduil's court.

Thus, in Season 4, she will be a Green Elf of Ossiriand. She can appear at the Mereth Aderthad (Tolkien tells us the Green Elves were invited) and she can attend Celeborn's wedding. I have not heard any other suggestions to work her in to the main story at this time (I don't think?) The Hosts have also requested that she be the spokesman of the Green Elves who 'unfriends' the mortals who arrive in Ossiriand in Season 5.

This leaves a long swath of time to connect this elf from the First Age to her older self from the late Third Age, so of course we will have to keep track of her as the story progresses. She will likely be the only Green Elf of Ossiriand that the audience knows by name, so anything we want the Green Elves to do is really a role for her. And, since her Season 5 viewpoint will be in strong contrast to her Frame viewpoint, we will likely have to show her Learning an Important Lesson during the Second Age that brings about this wisdom she's now willing to impart to Thranduil.

Nimloth will likely not appear until much later in our story, so we can figure out her parentage then. One possibility is that this elf would be her mother. She would have exited Beleriand with Oropher and thus lost touch with her daughter then. Another possibility is that we would use Celeborn's brother for that space in the genealogy, making Nimloth an elf of Doriath, not a Green Elf of Ossiriand,... but it is worth noting that his existence has not yet become part of this project. We can continue to suggest roles for him and see if the Hosts adopt this character (hey, you want one of the Sindar to be made captive by Sauron? How about Celeborn's brother! messenger to Doriath? I hear Celeborn's brother is available....)

If we get to the point in the story where we need Nimloth, and Galathil is nowhere to be found, we will likely make this elf into Nimloth's mother. So, anyone who wants to avoid having her be Nimloth's mother (which is far from an impossible proposition, but certainly one that can be seen as distasteful to some, I understand), will need to find a role for Galathil in this project. That's not quite as simple as saying 'he's a member of Thingol's court!' Because, sure, of course he could be...but if we have no reason to tell the audience about him...he's not really there. You need a role to introduce him, and thus far we do not have one.

When the Hosts initially discussed Celeborn (and Elwë's) families back at the beginning of Season 2, there was a desire to kill them off with the Hunter at Cuivienen (thus eliminating Elmo from existence). That's a firm decision - no Elmo (and no other elf in the place of Elmo). As Celeborn has been around as long as we've had elves (in this project), his family hasn't really been much of a question. Who is Elwë and Olwë's parents (since they are brothers)? Dunno, don't care; must've died or been left behind in Cuivienen or become proto-orcs or something. We have now added a sister to Celeborn's family; there is the potential to add additional family members, but so far, we have only discussed the possibility. The Hosts have not yet adopted those plans.
 
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I've stated the reasons why Celeborn should have parents and a brother and what role they could have in this project, and more specifically in this season. So it isn't the case that Galathil and Galadhon don't have roles available, only that some in the project don't like those roles. I'll add that we can use discussions between Celeborn and his family to showcase a variety of attitudes towards the Noldor among the Sindar, in direct conversation, and to show changes in attitude over time as they get to know Galadriel.
 
I don't want to come off as disrespectful and I think Cory is right with his analysis of Tolkien's work 99% of the time, but I don't like the constant kicking cans down the road. The big decisions have to be made, because they effect things being discussed now.

It was decided Celeborn would have no family, but now it's decided he does. They could have been introduced and played a role previously. Galathil could have been a member of Thingol's court and his confidant about Galadriel, which has been suggested.

The problem with the frame is that the Green Elves aren't very keen on reconciliation. As you have pointed out she is quick to call people her Unfriends. I am not sure the Frame is going to work with her being the voice of reconciliation, when through out the series we see her taking the opposite stance with no progression or moment to change her mind.

It's going to look very odd for her to have a completely different mentality with no explanation. People would expect Season 4 to perhaps show the reasons for her change, but instead the future season will just have her doubling down on her behaviour.

We are going to spend a lot of time in Doriath and a lot is going to happen. Turin's relationship with the court, the great werewolf hunt, the huge wars. It would be ironic if Galathil would be strong supporter of Thingol's ban on Men.
 
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