Session 4.04 & 4.05 - Overarching Storylines

I'd imagine a furious discussion among the Finarfinians (???), with one of the As demanding the rest stick to Fingolfin's official story (I assume there is one?), Finrod refusing to lie but willing to say nothing, Galadriel telling the others they can trust her judgement (ie. answering by not answering), Orodreth silently watching/brooding, and the other A arguing that Thingol will surely understand that just the Feanoreans are the villains here.

Thinking more on it, this discussion really is the pivot point for the entire story line, as you'd have people naturally explaining to the audience all the things we want them to be thinking about, from several different angles, in advance of any action or drama developing out of it. And if Galadriel has already told Celeborn about it it's an even more interesting argument, as she doesn't want them to know she spilled a bean or two herself.
 
Fingolfin is the one who called the Mereth Aderthad, which means he's gunning for peace between Noldor and Sindar, and Turgon is hosting the party. So, Fingolfin, Fingon, and Turgon are all pushing the 'official' line, but also not having *any* direct contact with Thingol (they haven't met him). So, from when they meet Círdan until the party, we'll have plenty of opportunities to hear what they think. (Which is mostly...nobody talk about it; what's in the past is over and done.)

But yes, it turns out that the House of Finrod is pivotal to this storyline - they're the ones who are actually talking to the Sindar about this stuff, and (gradually) letting some things slip. I think that meeting should happen sometime after the Mereth Aderthad, but before Thingol discovers the truth (for maximum impact).
 
How about the episode after the Mereth Aderthad (Episode 5 if we follow @Faelivrin‘s outline) opens with the debate and a later scene has Galadriel talking to Melian and admitting what happened?
 
There's basically nothing stopping Sauron from doing so, as long as he's clever enough to avoid suspicion. Finrod and Galadriel probably aren't in the habit of mind-reading everybody they meet just in case they're secretly demon spies. I mean, that's paranoia, right? >.> <.<

People who met Morgoth in Valinor and experienced his blandisments may have their suspicions raised if Sauron starts saying divisive things. But he's probably canny enough to keep his ears open and his mouth inoffensive. He'll benefit from being a bland-looking or charismatic/friendly, but not salient or highly noticeable, "Sinda".

This is a job for Sauron, Thruingwethil, and their more trusted servants, as opposed to the likes of Gothmog and Boldog. So even if Sauron isn't personally there, Morgoth may delegate the spying operations to him.


Other storyline threads that bear discussing at some point:
Sindar moving into Mithrim and Nevrast
Hildorien and the Fall of Men

Let me also say I'm relieved that the hosts are extending the preparation before diving into Episode 1. This season looks like it needs a lot of pre-planning.

Also sort of foreshadows Annatar! I like!

I think the overarching storyline for the villains is that they're feeling out their enemies and testing them. Morgoth is dismayed by the Sun and Moon, but rightly confident that no power of the Children of Illuvatar can actually bring him low. He's spying, capturing, and testing different kinds of attacks (Orcs and Dragons, frontal assault and sneaking ambush). He's biding his time, and essentially starting to brainstorm his plan for what will be the Dagor Bragollach.

I like that depiction of Morgoth a lot! Far better than having him an incapable txrant with constant military failures!
It occurred to me that we've forgotten one thing: most Ainur (except Morgoth and a few others) can just go unclad. Does Sauron need to disguise himself as a Sinda, or can he just turn invisible and intangible, and spy that

In a way i would love him having do both, maybe even at the same occasion! I mean he retains his ability to shapeshift for a long time and we could decide to give Thuringwethil some skill at that too!


QUOTE="Faelivrin, post: 23151, member: 663"]
This possibility raises the question of why there aren't invisible demons spying on the Noldorin leaders' plans and secrets all the time, though. Many or most demons might have already lost the ability to go completely unclad, like Morgoth did. But... didn't Sauron retain that power until the Downfall of Numenor?[/QUOTE]

Any spy should definitely watch out for Melian and Luthien!
maybe Sauron would eben at some point calculate in his spies maybe being caught and trying to scheme with that possibility in mind... like an expendable Agent you choose to sacrifice for example
 
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MithLuin said:
But what is less clear is how he finds out and what role 'rumors' play in all of this. Are there Sindar apologists for the weird silences and gaps in the Noldor story?

There has been talk of Galadriel sharing information with Celeborn that he then chooses not to share with Thingol. Why?
I’m very opposed to Celeborn concealing anything from Thingol. He wouldn’t be more loyal to somebody he just met over the King he has adored for millennia. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the story Tolkien wrote in the books, and no reason to change it. Galadriel should only tell Celeborn her mother died without saying how or why. Remember that revealing the Kinslaying means condemning Fingolfin and Fingon and Irimë, not just the Fëanorians, and possibly destroying the entire fragile alliance between Fingolfin and Thingol. Galadriel would not want to betray her King and her cousin for somebody she only just met. When Angrod bursts out the truth, he does so after Thingol already knows the Kinslaying happened, out of rash anger while being provoked and unjustly accused, not as a betrayal of Fingolfin.

This is the summary of what I propose. I think the first thing to figure out is when and where Morgoth’s spies learn the whole truth from the Noldor. Should they learn at the Mereth Aderthad, shortly before it, or shortly after it? The Mereth Aderthad is a convenient time to show them finding out (and I do want Sauron there), but it’s a weird time and place for Noldor to be whispering privately about the Kinslaying.


Episodes 1-2:
Nobody mentions the Kinslaying to the Sindar. Angrod tells Thingol only an extremely whitewashed story. Morgoth killed the Trees, and the Noldor want to avenge the Trees, defeat Morgoth, and help the Sindar. He avoids mentioning everything else, even Finwë’s murder.

Episode 5:
Mereth Aderthad. Celeborn and Galadriel have a heart-to-heart. Galadriel reveals that she has lost her mother. She does not reveal the Kinslaying, because she does not want to get Fingolfin and Fingon in trouble. Celeborn is sympathetic, and does not know that a Kinslaying happened.

The Sindar (again) ask for news from Olwë, Finwë, and the Valar. The Noldor give evasive answers or none at all. They can't make this sound very convincing.

Episode 6:
Sindar start questioning the gaps in the official Noldorin story. Nobody is likely to be an apologist for perceived lying, but at this point most Sindar are grateful to their saviors, naive to the possibility of Kinslaying, and willing to give allies the benefit of the doubt. Still, the gaps are curious and weird, so speculation begins.

Melian presses Galadriel about these gaps. Unable to get away with saying nothing, she admits that Morgoth murdered Finwë and stole Fëanor’s Silmarils. Out of pride, shame, and to protect Fingolfin and Fingon, she does not mention the Kinslaying. She point blank refuses to tell Melian what she knows.

Celeborn tells Thingol about Eärwen’s death. They both think she died in the Darkening of Valinor and assume Morgoth killed her somehow.

Morgoth (via Sauron) uses spies to start learning the truth by eavesdropping on the Noldor talking among themselves. The dopplegangers start spreading rumors among the Sindar, which include the truth but exaggerate it, making it even worse.

Episode 7:
Círdan brings the rumors to Thingol’s attention. Thingol confronts Angrod, who angrily tells the whole tale of the rebellion, the Kinslaying, the burning of the ships, and the Helkaraxë. Thingol makes his ban.


MithLuin said:
Who among the Noldor is responsible for letting the cat out of the bag? Who is responsible for perpetuating the lie of omission (ie, has *opportunities* to reveal the kinslaying, but...doesn't). Obviously, we want Galadriel to say *something* to both Melian and Celeborn (and Lúthien?), but while she reveals parts of the Darkening of Valinor, she's not the source for Thingol to learn of the Kinslaying. Is this an opportunity to differentiate Angrod and Aegnor? One of them is more bitter and anti-Fëanorean than the other, so....? Is Finrod at all involved in the cover-up? And how important are Sauron's rumors in getting the Sindar to question the Noldor in the first place? In other words...time to put forward ideas on how this plays out, adding details to 'rumors' of who said what.
Angrod reveals the truth, after everyone including Galadriel has been concealing it. Celeborn and Lúthien should be just as ignorant as Thingol.

I guess it’s a chance to differentiate Angrod from Aegnor, in that Angrod speaks up first. He remembers being dumped on by Caranthir. Aegnor is a passionate person for certain, but perhaps less likely to hold a grudge, or more in control of his impulses. Possibly Aegnor is the sort of person who has a "worked up" mode and a "calm" mode.

About friendly Sindar, I don’t have a ton to say yet. Some people (Thingol) are inclined to sweeping racist judgments about entire cultures, while others are inclined to judge each Noldo as an individual person. Círdan and Lúthien may think that Finrod has made a terrible mistake by participating in rebellion against the Valar, but recognize that he didn’t participate in the Kinslaying.

Edited for spelling. And grammar too.
 
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Any spy should definitely watch out for Melian and Luthien!
maybe Sauron would eben at some point calculate in his spies maybe being caught and trying to scheme with that possibility in mind... like an expendable Agent you choose to sacrifice for example
Yeah... no spies are getting past the Girdle of Melian, and after the first several are repelled, Sauron probably would get a hint that sending them at the Girdle might make them more detectable, and quit doing that. Which is actually an excuse for Cirdan to learn the rumors before Thingol does.

If Sauron expects his spies to be caught at some point... then he'd want to disguise them as Sindar, to stir up distrust between the Elves! But the Noldor born in Valinor wouldn't likely be fooled by that. Calaquendi can see the Unseen, which includes a person's fea/spirit. An Umaia likely has a bright Maia-looking spirit, instead of a dim Moriquendi-looking spirit. But it seems that Maiar aren't easily distinguished from Calaquendi, to judge from Olorin's success with disguises in Valinor.

Balrogs and Ringwraiths exude a constant terror that would be noticeable even when they're invisible. But Sauron doesn't*.

Perhaps the unclad spies have to be actively chased away with... Calaquendi singing songs about Valinor, or something like that. And the Noldor eventually learn they have to do that before and in the middle of every important military strategy meeting, but you can't do that for every casual conversation about the Rebellion.


*Is this related to the idea that Sauron hasn't yet irrevocably fallen yet and is still capable of redeeming himself? Well, but Morgoth in Valinor and Sauron in Numenor were already past their moral event horizons, and charming as heck.
 
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I’m very opposed to Celeborn concealing anything from Thingol. He wouldn’t be more loyal to somebody he just met over the King he has adored for millennia. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the story Tolkien wrote in the books, and no reason to change it. Galadriel should only tell Celeborn her mother died without saying how or why. Remember that revealing the Kinslaying means condemning Fingolfin and Fingon and Irimë, not just the Fëanorians, and possibly destroying the entire fragile alliance between Fingolfin and Thingol. Galadriel would not want to betray her King and her cousin for somebody she only just met. When Angrod bursts out the truth, he does so after Thingol already knows the Kinslaying happened, out of rash anger while being provoked and unjustly accused, not as a betrayal of Fingolfin.

Firstly, if this is the way the wind blows, I would not consider it a change so much as an embellishment. We don't get a lot of information about Galadriel and Celeborn's early relationship in the Silmarillion, so we don't really know what Celeborn knew early on. As to whether or not someone would reveal information about, or conceal information from, someone they have known their whole life to someone they met recently ... This is fairly common in romantic relationships. There are things about my wife and our relationship that I kept concealed from my family, and things that I told her (some rather early on) that I'm sure my family would rather I had not. There are quite a number of things that my wife kept concealed from her family about me, and things she told me about them which are downright incriminating. And this is within a few months of knowing each other, not years.
 
There is also the factor of time. Myabe it takes Celeborn a few days or weeks to decide what to do.
And maybe Galadriel acts out of emotion rather than logic when talking with him.

It's a reasonable way to go. It's not the only way to do it but it's a way I like and I think it works well.
 
They don't have a romatic relationship at the time of the Mereth Aderthad, it's only the second or third time they've spoken to each other. Nick, if your parents had been involved in a mass-murder, would you have told your future-wife before you even started dating her? Telling Celeborn means betraying Fingolfin and potentially destroying their alliance with the Sindar. It is not at all trivial. It's not something to bring up casually over dinner with a mere acquaintance.

And the Mereth Aderthad isn't just a few weeks before Thingol finds out the truth. It's 47 years before.
 
They don't have a romatic relationship at the time of the Mereth Aderthad, it's only the second or third time they've spoken to each other. Nick, if your parents had been involved in a mass-murder, would you have told your future-wife before you even started dating her? Telling Celeborn means betraying Fingolfin and potentially destroying their alliance with the Sindar. It is not at all trivial. It's not something to bring up casually over dinner with a mere acquaintance.

And the Mereth Aderthad isn't just a few weeks before Thingol finds out the truth. It's 47 years before.
Well, best to have some secrets laid out at the beginning of a relationship.
 
They don't have a romatic relationship at the time of the Mereth Aderthad, it's only the second or third time they've spoken to each other. Nick, if your parents had been involved in a mass-murder, would you have told your future-wife before you even started dating her? Telling Celeborn means betraying Fingolfin and potentially destroying their alliance with the Sindar. It is not at all trivial. It's not something to bring up casually over dinner with a mere acquaintance.

And the Mereth Aderthad isn't just a few weeks before Thingol finds out the truth. It's 47 years before.

I'm pretty sure everyone here is suggesting that such a revelation take place within an actual relationship, not just a casual acquaintance.
 
It was proposed that Galadriel tell him everything at Mereth Aderthad.

This is fairly common in romantic relationships. There are things about my wife and our relationship that I kept concealed from my family, and things that I told her (some rather early on) that I'm sure my family would rather I had not. There are quite a number of things that my wife kept concealed from her family about me, and things she told me about them which are downright incriminating. And this is within a few months of knowing each other, not years.
I do believe you. But you're Human, so a few months isn't the blink of an eye to you.

I don't think that Elves consider somebody well-known until many, many years together. Finrod said in the Athrabeth that he had only "too briefly" known Boron after ~93 years of friendship. How can Galadriel possibly trust Celeborn not to spread this dire secret, when she only saw him once or twice before the Feast?

If Galadriel tells Celeborn after knowing him for years, after they've declared their undying love for one another, it wouldn't be bizarre. But that's only if we decide that they declare their love or get betrothed before Thingol's ban.
 
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It was proposed that Galadriel tell him everything at Mereth Aderthad.

I do believe you. But you're Human, so a few months isn't the blink of an eye to you.

I don't think that Elves consider somebody well-known until many, many years together. Finrod said in the Athrabeth that he had only "too briefly" known Boron after ~93 years of friendship. How can Galadriel possibly trust Celeborn not to spread this dire secret, when she only saw him once or twice before the Feast?

If Galadriel tells Celeborn after knowing him for years, after they've declared their undying love for one another, it wouldn't be bizarre. But that's only if we decide that they declare their love or get betrothed before Thingol's ban.
It's going to feel like a few weeks for a TV viewer.
 
I have earlier suggested an... accelerated courtship for G&C. Like, they basically know instantly. The logical fronts of their brains could kind of doubt and struggle for a very short while, but the emotional backs of their brains already know it's a done deal.

We already see something like this three times elsewhere, each of which in what appears on the surface to be a very one-way "oooh look at the pretty lady" kind of thing but upon second look is actually much more two-way and egalitarian sort of thing. We can use this one to sort of lean in to how it isn't about ogling the pretty lady, but is something deep and true and bi-directional.


ETA: By "like this" I mean cases where two people, upon first meeting, just sort of spontaneously/simultaneously decide "well, I guess we're a combined unit now" without even saying it out loud.

ETA again: Maybe more than three times? I was initially thinking only of Thingol/Melian, Beren/Luthien, and Aragorn/Arwen. Might something of this flavour (only darkened) be true of Eol/Aredhel? And maybe 50% of this happens with Maeglin/Idril, with 0% on Idril's part? And 50% the opposite way with Turin/Finduilas? What about Aegnor/Andreth, where this could happen, but the logic part of their brains defeats the emotion part just long enough for it to be thwarted.
 
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Yes I’ve argued before and maintain that Galadriel and Celeborn fall in love (in spite of logic) instantly, at first sight. Besides being in keeping with elven ways, it liberates us from having to find reasons for their love. All of the ‘what does G see in C??’ questions become redundant (although him keeping her secrets adds a lot).
 
Yeah they won’t know what to say, of course. It will be unexpected, for everyone.
 
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