Session 4.04 & 4.05 - Overarching Storylines

They could indeed block him. So if he makes a habit of asking escaped prisoners "Tell me yes or no: are you under the Spell of Bottomless Dread?" the answer is always either "No", or "I'm not telling" which looks very suspicious at best.

But the Elves likely don't have a concrete concept of there being a Spell, just that some escaped prisoners betray Elfland afterwards. We're using "Spell of Bottomless Dread" for something that's described a bit more vaguely in most texts, outside the Lost Tales -- because it's challenging to even talk about it without a name.
 
The danger is here to lean toward the Jackson version of Saruman's spell over Théoden, or a D&D-style quantified magic system. I think it's more complicated than that (agreeing with the post above mine).

"Spell of Bottomless Dread" is a label applied to the observed effect of several cases, but there's no indication that the magic, if you call it magic, works in a way that follows rules and leaves consistent observable evidence, or even that the different victims are all affected in precisely the same way. SoBD could be a label applied to a wide range of responses, all terrible, but all terrible in different ways.
 
Also. I didn't do any keyboard tricks, I just type T-h-e-o-d-e-n and it comes out as Théoden. Weird.

[ETA: Does it work with Feanor? Nope. What about Thrain? Nope. Gloin? Nope. Just Théoden so far. hahaha]
 
The danger is here to lean toward the Jackson version of Saruman's spell over Théoden, or a D&D-style quantified magic system. I think it's more complicated than that (agreeing with the post above mine).

"Spell of Bottomless Dread" is a label applied to the observed effect of several cases, but there's no indication that the magic, if you call it magic, works in a way that follows rules and leaves consistent observable evidence, or even that the different victims are all affected in precisely the same way. SoBD could be a label applied to a wide range of responses, all terrible, but all terrible in different ways.
Well, the thing with Saruman in the film was that he was directly possessing Theoden, prematurely aging him and clouding his judgement.
 
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The preliminary outlines were made before we developed the Season storylines. The Hosts did request that order iirc, so we will see.
 
If needed, we could have a scene where some Falathrim sailors discover the Grinding Ice, to show that they didn’t know it existed. They’d need a reason to sail so far north, but “exploring for fun” is a Telerin thing and the Edge of the World is over there.

Even Cirdan himself or some of his lieutenants could think of doing such a short expedition if they are growing to be ome suspicious that something is kept away from them..
 
If it isn’t too late I wish to try to resolve the issue of the Noldorin reconciliation chronology, before the Overview sessions end. I wish I had been able to get caught up in the forum faster (I’m still not caught up). Mostly I'm persuaded by MithLuin's points, but some things would still need figuring out.


I am not suggesting that Maedhros do anything political while he is bedridden/recuperating.
I recognize that you also prefer the version where Maedhros is proactive in his abdication,
OK, so the two of us agree on some points (I don’t know the opinions of others... anyone want to chime in?)

Reparations are more than giving back what you stole.
Very true. But Maedhros while still half-recuperated could order X head of cattle and X horses given as gifts, or whatever, which is at least something. True that it may not be enough.

1) The rift between the two hosts of the Noldor is meant to be healed in Year 5 of the chronology. The Fëanoreans, not the Host of Fingolfin, are at fault for the betrayal at Araman and the burning of the ships. The Host of Fingolfin has a legitimate grievance against the Fëanoreans. Thus, the healing of that feud cannot happen until the Fëanoreans make a gesture of repentance.
[...]
2) It is possible to delay until the end of the council two years later, when the Noldor are ready to carve out realms for themselves in Middle Earth. By doing so, a few things are lost. One, there is no initiative on Maedhros' part - it is clear that the majority Host of Fingolfin will support Fingolfin, and his own group is a minority, so all he can do is concede with grace or start a fight.
[...]
4) Lastly, the Fëanoreans leave immediately after the Council to go East. If they appear to leave moments after Maedhros acknowledges Fingolfin as High King, it's fairly obvious that the Fëanoreans did *not* acknowledge Fingolfin and are making no attempt to reconcile at all.
As for Angrod, Tolkien's stated motivation for him to keep silent is his belief that the past has been forgiven and the feud healed, and thus it is all best left unmentioned. He is not said to be afraid of what the consequences would be, should Thingol find out. I am not saying that there's anything wrong with making him prudent in keeping his mouth shut, I'm just mentioning that Tolkien did give him a motivation beyond fear, and as that motivation ties in very strongly with our theme for the season, it would be a shame to swallow it up and lose it here.
[...]
Personally, I want to see him being as intentionally generous as he can to the Fëanoreans, so that Caranthir's rebuke stings as terribly unfair and rankles for years to come.
You have some very good points here about the shape of the story and how it would look. I do imagine Maedhros is a bit easier to forgive than his brothers who participated in the arson, or at least think he’s paid for his crimes. But overall your points are very good ones. When you put it in that light the Quenta version does seem better-told than the Annals version.



So I’m game for doing it the way you prefer. But I have several questions about how to depict this chronology:

Maedhros won’t recuperate quickly, and I wouldn’t want to give the impression that Elves heal instantly. Given how traumatized he must be, it’s likely he does need 1½ - 2 years before he’s functional. So my first (overall) question is what do we show the Noldor doing in the meantime? Despite Elvish lackadaisicalness, I don’t think we really should show them just waiting around. So ...

Do the Noldor send scouts around Beleriand? Put the watch upon Angband/Dor-Daedeloth?
Does Galadriel go to Menegroth? With what instructions?
Do the two camps speak to each other, or visit?

There are reasons to tell the sons of Fëanor what happened, and let them visit their brother, sooner rather than later. I think Maedhros will be close to starving to death when Fingon finds him, and adding major injury would put him on the brink of death at first. It will be uncertain whether he’ll survive. The reconciliation gesture would be weaker if Maedhros died before his brothers got to see him. Delay could make them angry too, even though he survives.

If the Fëanorians visit before the abdication, how will the camps interact? Will they argue, behave cautiously, or quickly try to reconcile? How much will Maglor’s will prevail over his younger brothers’? I think Maglor would try to make a conciliatory gesture, and Maedhros would eventually tell them Maglor is officially in charge for now and they should cooperate/compromise with Fingolfin. He can order material reparations, and apologize privately to his cousins and uncle.

(cross-posted) I’d like the Fëanorian Besan to give seeds and lembas to Fingolfin’s Besan, and she’d surely give some bread to Maedhros, since it would help him survive and recover.



The second issue to solve is also about timing. Before the Noldor finish their council(s) and leave Mithrim, four things have to happen, and each thing would take several months to a year, or more:
  • Maedhros recuperating
  • Scouts exploring all of Beleriand and Ard-galen (+ scene with Ecthelion vs. Gaurhoth?)
  • Galadriel travelling to and from Doriath (over 300 miles one-way, though mostly by river)
  • Angrod travelling to and from Doriath
If most of those things overlap in time, it’s a lot more plausible to finish them all up in 2 years. If they have to happen sequentially without overlapping, it’ll take longer. I don’t mean we necessarily have to take more episodes to show it, but that more time would pass, and we’d have to acknowledge all that time passing. It seems the councils would finish up in year 9 or 10, instead of year 7.

Can we overlap some of this? E.g. Send the scouts out immediately, communicate their findings between the factions, and keep them working until Angrod’s return?
 
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Yes, I picture some of these events as overlapping.

This is again an issue of...we need to know what we are trying to show (timing-wise), even if the exact chronology isn't fully communicated to the audience.

Some of those things certainly start prior to year 5. So, for instance, the Noldor will have begun to explore their immediate surroundings right away, and are no doubt venturing further and further into Beleriand as time goes on. Also, I don't think that Galadriel needs to wait for the reconciliation of the two camps to visit Doriath, though Angrod does. (If only because Galadriel isn't going to say much and her mission as ambassador functionally aborts before she accomplishes anything.)

So: Maedhros' recovery: part of Year 5
Scouts exploring Beleriand: Years 2-7 (ongoing)
Galadriel travelling to Doriath: Year 4
Angrod travelling to Doriath: Year 6
Noldor establish and claim realms: Year 7
Fingolfin acclaimed as High King: Year 5 (I recognize this particular item is contentious)

I probably wasn't going to assign such a lengthy time to Maedhros' recovery. I do agree that he is in very bad shape (starved/emaciated/bed-ridden) when he arrives, and on top of that, he just got his hand hacked off. I have always pictured Fingon and Thorondor delivering him directly to the Fëanorean camp for his healing and recovery, but obviously arguments could be made for bringing him back to Fingolfin's camp initially and then returning him to the Fëanoreans.

Tolkien gave the Ringbearers a couple of weeks to recover after their time in Mordor. We can certainly give Maedhros longer than that. But after, say, 2 months, I would expect him to be up and about. Not at full strength, and not immediately leaping into governing, but able to start doing things again. He would work through Maglor at first, I agree, and he has to learn to function one-handed, which can't be much fun. So, early recuperation is focused on physical recovery (needing assistance getting dressed, eating food and keeping it down, healing his stump, staying in bed the majority of each day and only the lightest effort towards putting out fires and reasserting Maglor's authority) He'd see his own brothers and Fingon (family) when they come to his sickroom, but not the general population and certainly nothing in his role as leader of the Fëanoreans. This is the phase I would think is something in the 8 weeks range (obviously, open to discussion). Then, as he regains his strength and isn't perpetually exhausted, he'd work on figuring out how to be leader again and trying to regain functionality. Now he has to learn how to do day-to-day tasks one-handed, (I don't mean relearn how to ride a horse and use a sword -- save those skills for later). It's at this point that he'd begin exerting more control (still through Maglor), and start taking steps to reconcile the two camps. He would go 'out and about' in his own camp, and be seen by the Fëanoreans in general, not just immediate family (but still no visits to Fingolfin's camp.) I'm not sure how long this 'planning' stage would take, but...again...some time passes. When he's presentable, there would be some formal gesture of reconciliation - offering horses, livestock, lembas, but also going so far as to apologize for the burning of the ships in addition to publicly thanking Fingon for his rescue. This would happen as part of a planned formal meeting of both Hosts; maybe not everyone is present, but it is a large public event. I picture him abdicating his claim to the High Kingship at this time, so we'd have to wait until everything is in place for this to happen. I would imagine this would happen 6-9 months after his rescue (again, negotiable). I feel if they wait too long, they lose some of the impetus of reacting to Fingon's rescue of Maedhros. Maedhros isn't going to want to wait too long. He doesn't have to be 100% back to health to do that. He could still be working on his stamina and his one-handed skills over the coming years. Healed enough to be presentable and not limping around or having to sit down because he gets winded instantly and drink only broth at meals. He should still be a bit gaunt, just...not at death's door any longer. 'Stable enough not to embarrass himself' isn't quite the same thing as 'healed'.



We do have a bit of an issue trying to squeeze everything into Episode 1. We could bump Maedhros' rescue back to episode 2, but I don't think this gains us much. I also think the Hosts were counting on a dramatic Season opener, and 'uncomfortably awkward camps and language learning' probably isn't what they had in mind. So, we can keep Maedhros' rescue at the end of Episode 1, and then show his recovery in Episode 3. I propose using Episode 2 to be Sindar-centric, so we would show both Galadriel's time in Doriath and Círdan's time with the Noldor (as well as any other Sindar-centric stories we want to tell) to emphasize the different perspectives while allowing us to show some pre-Year-5 events in Episode 2.

So...
I would propose breaking it down this way.
Episode 1: Years 2-5, Noldor perspective
Episode 2: Years 2-5, Sindar perspective
Episode 3: Years 5-6: Reconcile the Feud between the 2 camps, send Angrod to Doriath
Episode 4: Year 6-7: Angrod returns from Doriath, Noldor claim their realms, Caranthir and Angrod clash
Episode 5: Year 20: Mereth Aderthad

To do this, we would need to show Galadriel leaving for Doriath and returning from Doriath in Episode 1, but show her actual time in Doriath in Episode 2. Since she is so starkly changed, I think introducing a bit of mystery/anticipation there is not a bad thing. I'm also a bit fuzzy on how Angrod's trip will tie into the other storylines, so whether that's the end of Episode 3 or the beginning of Episode 4 (or both) isn't really an issue to me right now. The important part be that he leave after having witnessed the reconciliation of the camps, and that he preferably be sent by High King Fingolfin.

I am also fine with separating the abdication of Maedhros from the formal crowning of Fingolfin; they don't have to be the same event. It was just important to me that Maedhros be the one making that decision and preemptively abdicating, not waiting for the Noldor to say, 'Who's in charge? I guess it must be Fingolfin because no one wants to follow the Fëanoreans any more.' It's the kind of situation where if we build up Maedhros' efforts to reconcile, and we know he's going to formally apologize, and everyone is geared up for this public event....and then he abdicates...that's a bit of a shocker (or should be), and we should let the Noldor react to that. They don't have to have a coronation for Fingolfin on the spot, but it could be (for instance) an episode tag, or the opening of the next episode.
 
So if I read that right, you're saying we need a Rocky-style montage, complete with Eye of the Tiger, for Maedhros learning how to fight left-handed. Couldn't agree more.

(I'm joking of course)
 
He's a clever boy, I'm sure he can work it out. I don't think it matters which individual Elves are left handed (unless there is an important narrative reason to not have left-handed Elves that I don't know about in a later History of Middle Earth book?)
 
Fingon, obviously.

MqEX4-Mjooc.jpg

Artwork by Kasiopeia (Katherine Karina Chmiel), depicting Fingon (in braids on the left) helping Maedhros learn to fight left-handed while Maglor and Curufin(?) stand by and watch. (I am not 100% sure of the identity of the seated brother. It could be Caranthir.)

Maedhros' return is a boon to Maglor, who did not want to be acting leader of the Fëanoreans, and a bit of a challenge to Curufin, who was well on his way to deciding that he is his father's heir. Don't get me wrong, Curufin is happy to see his brother again and glad Fingon rescued him. But...if Maedhros maybe doesn't fully recover and reclaim his place as eldest and father's heir and in charge...Curufin might be fine with that. I do not think he'd do anything to sabotage Maedhros' recovery, but I also think he is watching very carefully at this time, to see if Maedhros will recover or not.
 
Maedhros' return is a boon to Maglor, who did not want to be acting leader of the Fëanoreans, and a bit of a challenge to Curufin, who was well on his way to deciding that he is his father's heir. Don't get me wrong, Curufin is happy to see his brother again and glad Fingon rescued him. But...if Maedhros maybe doesn't fully recover and reclaim his place as eldest and father's heir and in charge...Curufin might be fine with that. I do not think he'd do anything to sabotage Maedhros' recovery, but I also think he is watching very carefully at this time, to see if Maedhros will recover or not.

This is probably my favorite part of this whole bit. Having Curufin concerned that Maedhros might not be the leader he once was, and having those fears seem confirmed when he abdicates to Fingolfin, is definitely going to be interesting. We should have a moment later in the season where that storyline gets at least a temporary resolution.
 
This is probably my favorite part of this whole bit. Having Curufin concerned that Maedhros might not be the leader he once was, and having those fears seem confirmed when he abdicates to Fingolfin, is definitely going to be interesting. We should have a moment later in the season where that storyline gets at least a temporary resolution.
Is it possible that at this point he starts making plans on his own to bring all the Eldarin kingdoms together like trying to have Celegorm marry Luthien?
 
I think that the 'marry Luthien' plot was a spur of the moment thing based on circumstances. If they hadn't stumbled upon her like that, he never would have tried something like that. Timing matters, too - that was after they'd found out that Thingol had named a silmaril as her bride price.

Curufin will make his real power grab after the Union of Maedhros fails and all of the surviving brothers are wounded. For now...he accepts Maedhros (who is likely terrifying if you cross him), but looks for weaknesses. The alliance Curufin builds in Season 4 is with the dwarves, and he cements his connection with Celegorm and (to a lesser extent) Caranthir.
 
I think that the 'marry Luthien' plot was a spur of the moment thing based on circumstances. If they hadn't stumbled upon her like that, he never would have tried something like that. Timing matters, too - that was after they'd found out that Thingol had named a silmaril as her bride price.

Curufin will make his real power grab after the Union of Maedhros fails and all of the surviving brothers are wounded. For now...he accepts Maedhros (who is likely terrifying if you cross him), but looks for weaknesses. The alliance Curufin builds in Season 4 is with the dwarves, and he cements his connection with Celegorm and (to a lesser extent) Caranthir.
What would Curufin try to do in his power grab? There's not much left to grab; he and Celegorm got kicked out of Nargothrond, Easterlings have invaded Dor-Lomin and Hithlum, nobody can find Gondolin, and Doriath won't touch the Feanoreans with a 39-and-a-half foot pole. Besides, it isn't his idea to attack Doriath when Dior becomes King, that's Celegorm who incites the rest.
 
Celegorm and Curufin are a pair for a reason. Celegorm's desire to attack Doriath is his own, but the timing, and the details of sending the letter, etc....Curufin was no doubt involved in that.

So, what does Curufin try to do? The Second Kinslaying, basically.
 
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Celegorm and Curufin are a pair for a reason. Celegorm's desire to attack Doriath is his own, but the timing, and the details of sending the letter, etc....Curufin was no doubt involved in that.

So, what does Curufin try to do? The Second Kinslaying, basically.
Oh... So Curufin is the one writing the letter, and Celegorm incites the assault on Doriath?
 
I don't know the details. Celegorm may very well write the letter. My suggestion is that Curufin, not Maedhros, is the one who thinks this is a good plan and is supporting it happening.

But as for what he does in Season 4...the alliance with the Dwarves is probably the most significant development in Curufin's world.
 
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