Session 4.06 - Overarching Storylines, Continued

So a tentative proposed chronology for Eöl would be:

1) Leaves Great Debate and becomes a lone Avari elf. Takes an interest in astronomy while wandering Middle Earth under the stars.

2) Meets and befriends Dwarves of the Blue Mountains, learning metalworking from them. Recall that our Nandor don't have metalworking technology at all, so this is a very un-Avari interest for him to have - definitely sounds like something he'd get from the dwarves. Develops a rapport with Telchar of Nogrod? Who was the armorer of Doriath and later makes the Dragon-helm for the King of Belegost. [I ask, because while we planned for these two to interact in Season 3, that bit got scrapped, and therefore I'm not sure if it 'happened'] We will need a dwarf to comment on how 'wrong' his swords are, and the audience knows Telchar already.

3) Sees meteor fall in what will later become Lake Helevorn. Goes to investigate and finds meteoric iron. Learns to use this to make his black swords and/or galvorn.

4) While exploring Beleriand (in search of more raw materials?) comes across Nan Elmoth and recognizes its innate magic, leftover from Melian's proto-girdle. Becomes enamored with the place and wishes to make it his home.

5) Petitions Thingol for permission to live in Nan Elmoth, and grudgingly parts with the sword as payment.

At some point, the Sun rises. And he grumbles about his new Noldor neighbors when they arrive. *They* just took the land and didn't pay Thingol at all!
 
I spent longer than I wanted to looking at meteorite masses and crater diameters. A really heavy meteorite (from a blacksmithing perspective) is actually a really small meteorite (from an astronomical perspective), but it will probably break up and scatter and such as well. I think if we were going to do this for real we'd need to consult a scientist to get the right scale between how much metal we want and how big of a crater we want. For this point in the project, though, it probably doesn't matter. We're still in a flat Earth, for crying out loud, so it could just as easily float down hanging from a cloud. Hahahaha
 
1) Leaves Great Debate and becomes a lone Avari elf. Takes an interest in astronomy while wandering Middle Earth under the stars.

The kindest thing Tolkien ever did was kill off Eol before the world was changed and all his astronomy was rendered obsolete. LOL
 
So a tentative proposed chronology for Eöl would be:
2) Meets and befriends Dwarves of the Blue Mountains, learning metalworking from them. Recall that our Nandor don't have metalworking technology at all, so this is a very un-Avari interest for him to have - definitely sounds like something he'd get from the dwarves.

Not sure if it HAS to be this way.I mean our Avari have several millenia to develope their culture, just as our Eldar have and we know the Tatyar and Nelyal are all very akin in mind to their eldarin brethren. Our Nandor are Nelyar, but if Eol is Tatya on at least one side, so a noldo- relative, he could have such interests.Plus we know tbere are dwarves in eastern middle-earth, probably the northern Orocarni, not far from Cuivienen, and there are probably Dwarves in the unknown lands between these and Rhovanion too. We know the seven houses of the dwarves somehow were in contact with each other, so Eol could have befriended some eastern dwarves, lerned some smithcraft had have the info that there are more dwarves in the west.So when he leaves to follow his meteorite it would be natural for him to seek the contact to dwarves, who he likes, instead of Eldar who he dislikes, first.

But that is a minor thing i think.Overall i like that outline!

Fun fact:

There once actually had been the theory of the so called "Chiemgau meteorite", a legendary meteorite that was belived to have gine down near Hallstatt and have been the secret in Celtic smith-art. That theory today is widely dismissed as pseudo-science of course... but one could still use the basic idea.

A real impact however that was discovered by the same researchers who once thought there had been a chiemgau meteorite was the Neuschwanstein- meteorite:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuschwanstein_(meteorite)
 
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...I did not know there was a European Fireball Network!

It would have to be a pretty impressive meteor for the impact crater to become Lake Helevorn, but it's certainly possible for Eöl to find just a fragment of it for his purposes.
 
This is my initial answer to the questions MithLuin started with. I haven't caught up reading the whole thread yet.


Eol's black metal, galvorn, is the very same stuff he made from the fallen stars. I guess it isn't the same as real world meteoric iron.

The Petty-dwarves have to be evicted from their caves before Finrod builds Nargothrond. Who will evict them? Finrod himself, Thingol/Sindar, or Dwarves from the Blue Mountains [with or without] Thingol's direction/urging?
Thingol should tell Finrod about the caves, either without knowing about the Petty-Dwarves, or without telling him about them. The greater Dwarves should evict the Petty-Dwarves before showing the place to Finrod, and lie saying their own people used to live there but don't need it anymore.

Finrod is my favorite character and I feel very strongly that he is not a person who would knowingly drive people out of their homes and steal their land. He wants to try to be friends with all peoples, except Morgoth's servants. He should not be aware the Petty-Dwarves lived there. He believes that he is buying the land from the greater Dwarves with his treasure, not realizing it isn't their land to sell in the first place.

Do the Dwarves feel protective of the Petty-dwarves when it comes to outsiders, but shun them themselves?
This, yes. Tolkien wrote that the greater Dwarves despise the Petty-Dwarves, and are happy to drive them from their homes (especially when Finrod pays them). But they don't approve of other people hunting or killing the Petty-Dwarves.


Eol, I strongly think, must arrive in Beleriand before the Noldor arrive, and before the Sun rises. I'll just start by quoting what I've said before, because I'm too tired/lazy to try rephrasing them for now. :p Edit: I'm aware everyone probably already saw these, but I couldn't remember what I'd said and where.

I think we do have three very good arguments why we should be allowed to tell the story from the book:

1. Eol would only claim he has more right to live in Beleriand than the Noldor do if he arrives before they do, not years afterwards. It's a significant part of his story and character that he was there first, years before the Noldor, and that he enjoyed peace in Beleriand and blamed the Noldor for starting the war with Morgoth -- not just that he has a generic, unspecific dislike of them for no reason. And that he got to know the Dwarves long before they met any Noldor. If he hates the Noldor for no reason at all, then he'll be like a characature of the original character. Eol in the book is a nasty person, but he actually has reasons for what he thinks and does -- they're generally bad reasons, but they make sense to him and he can tell them to other people -- he doesn't just hate people at random. If it was just reflexive xenophobia or being antisocial, he'd hate the Dwarves, too.

2. His choice to live in Nan Elmoth was also supposed to be about finding someplace safe in Beleriand, but outside the Girdle of Melian. That doesn't matter if the Feanorians have already killed all the Orcs, the Girdle is a decade old, and the Spiders are long gone, by the time Eol shows up -- he could live anywhere at all, without paying for it with magic swords, so why would he bother to pay for Nan Elmoth? Why would he choose that place, after the Noldor arrive? If he hates them, he wouldn't even emigrate into Beleriand, after it's settled by Noldor and he has to pass through Feanorian territory just to get to Nan Elmoth. How would he even know what Nan Elmoth is, or speak Sindarin, or know to ask Thingol's permission, if he had no prior contact with the Sindar?

3. How would we depict him hating the Sun and Moon and longing for the ancient time of starlight, if he doesn't show up until after the Sunrise? His unhappiness wouldn't really have meaning without contrasting it to a previous time when we show him to actually be content or happy, before the Sun rises.

None of the above would make sense if he arrived after the Noldor were already established in Middle-earth. Making him a late-comer to Beleriand instead of someone who lived there for many years fundamentally changes who the character is.

The Fëanorians move into East Beleriand, where Eöl is outraged at his new neighbors. While the Fëanorians establish and begin building their castles in the present, we get to know what Eöl has been up to through long ‘flashbacks’ (for lack of a better word) as he discusses the injustice of this situation with his servants, and with his Dwarven visitors. He and his servants came to Nan Elmoth to get away from tiresome and arrogant people, not to meet new ones! Described in as much detail as you want to include, here: https://forums.signumuniversity.org...son-4-episode-outlines.3019/page-7#post-22670

Amras initially wants to live alone far from his brothers. Maedhros persuades him to live near him on Himring, but Amras is judgemental towards his brothers and keeps going on about their doom. He hates all his brothers except Maedhros.

(I do not want the Fëanorians wantonly murdering Dwarves, but if everyone else really wants to make up that sory, this is the only reasonable time to do it: before the Noldor meet any Dwarves at all. Which means we have to explain what Petty-Dwarves are doing at Himring, or Rerir, or Aglon.)
I would only want the Feanorians to hunt Petty-Dwarves before they have met regular Dwarves. Feanorians are Kinslayers but it would be an out-of-character characature to depict them knowingly hunting people for sport.
 
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So replying to @MithLuin's "tentative proposed chronology" with my suggestions in purple. Overall I like this, I really like the meteor as a motivation to come to Beleriand.

1) Leaves Great Debate and becomes a lone Avar Elf. Takes an interest in astronomy while wandering Middle-earth under the stars. Attracts some like-minded Avarin or Nandorin friends who become his servants/companions.

2) Meets and befriends Dwarves of the Misty Mountains, learning metalworking from them.

3) Sees a meteor fall in what will later become Lake Helevorn. Goes to investigate and finds meteoric iron. Learns to use this to make galvorn and his black swords. Develops a rapport with Telchar and the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost, but has a falling out with Telchar over the wrongness of his creepy swords.

4) While exploring Beleriand (in search of more raw materials?) comes across Nan Elmoth and recognizes its innate magic, leftover from Melian's proto-Girdle.


5) The Moon and Sun rise. Eol hates the new light and wants a place to escape from it. Remembering the magic of Melian lingering in Nan Elmoth, he thinks he can use it to create a dome of shadow to block out the Sun. (Melian is a spirit if night and shadow, and the trees of Nan Elmoth are already taller than those elsewhere in Beleriand.)

6)
Petitions Thingol for permission to live in Nan Elmoth, and grudgingly parts with one sword as payment. (This must happen before the Noldor contact Thingol, because he changes his policy at that time to be more permissive towards the Noldor) Uses the remnants of Melian's magic to block out most of the sunlight from entering the forest. Also creates a creepy reverse-Girdle, so it's easy to enter but difficult to leave.

7) He grumbles about his new Noldorin (Feanorian) neighbors when they arrive. They just took the land and didn't pay Thingol at all!


Yes, I think that 1-6 would have to be referred to in flashback or discussion, or kept mysterious. I don't think we need to show Eol's story in very great detail, more detail than the events in Hildorien but not in every single detail. And we can unravel unfurl the story gradually to draw out the mystery of this strange person, telling different parts in different episodes.

MithLuin once pointed out that if we show the audience all about Eol's nasty personality and behavior, there won't be mystery about whether he's a rogue with a heart of gold or a creepy monster, and then Aredhel will look like an idiot for falling in with him. (MithLuin explained it much better than that.) The reverse-Girdle effect shouldn't be revealed until Aredhel gradually realizes she can't escape Nan Elmoth at all without a guide... and has to wait for Maeglin to guide her out when he's old/experienced enough.

Telchar's dislike of Eol, for example, needn't be shown happening on screen in a flashback. At some point before Telchar dies, the subject of Eol might come up in conversation, probably with Caranthir. And Telchar tells Caranthir she once was friends with Eol, they learned from each other. But something about his swords disturbed her. She might be the one to tell Caranthir why Eol is in Nan Elmoth and how he bought the land with a galvorn sword. Or she might not know his motivation for going there, only the way he bought the land.

(Ignore the parts in my earlier proposals about Eol dwelling in Doriath. The Helevorn meteor is a way better idea.)

Edit: Typo. I mean unfurl, not unravel
 
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Do we need an origin story for the meteor? Like, is there something inherent to it that makes it into evil metal which makes evil swords?

Pro: It could be cool, maybe it was part of some failed scheme from Morgoth to corrupt the stars?

Con: It could appear to take some agency away from Eol - if it's the metal that makes the swords evil, maybe it's working with the metal that makes Eol go from curmudgeon to full-on villain?
 
Ooh, it just occurred to me that by putting the galvorn meteor in Helevorn, we've given Eol an additional reason to hate the Feanorians. Before the Noldor came, he had free access to Helevorn. When the Sun rose and he went to Nan Elmoth, he expected he'd still be able to travel between Nan Elmoth and Helevorn whenever he wanted. But when the Feanorians show up, they claim that land for themselves. Caranthir takes over Lake Helevorn, and suddenly Eol is cut off from his magic metal and can't collect any more of it! He's even forced to travel through the Feanorian territory to visit his Dwarven friends in the Blue Mountains. (Do the Feanorians charge a toll?)

@amysrevenge I think the evil comes from Eol's heart and spirit, not from the metal. The meteor is a probably a neutral object.

Regarding Petty-Dwarves, if the Hosts really want the Feanorians to hunt them: I imagine some of them could be living under Rerir or Himring (in addition to the group in Nargothrond), and they were sort of friends with Eol, or at least tolerated him. Maybe they traded stuff mined from Rerir or Himring to Eol for some of his galvorn? When the Feanorians show up, these hostile Petty-Dwarves are the first Dwarves they've ever met. The Petty-Dwarves attack the Noldor at night, by ambush, because they're violent xenophobes. The Feanorians think they're Orcs and hunt them down.
 
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Ooh, it just occurred to me that by putting the galvorn meteor in Helevorn, we've given Eol an additional reason to hate the Feanorians. Before the Noldor came, he had free access to Helevorn. When the Sun rose and he went to Nan Elmoth, he expected he'd still be able to travel between Nan Elmoth and Helevorn whenever he wanted. But when the Feanorians show up, they claim that land for themselves. Caranthir takes over Lake Helevorn, and suddenly Eol is cut off from his magic metal and can't collect any more of it! He's even forced to travel through the Feanorian territory to visit his Dwarven friends in the Blue Mountains. (Do the Feanorians charge a toll?)

@amysrevenge I think the evil comes from Eol's heart and spirit, not from the metal. The meteor is a probably a neutral object.

Regarding Petty-Dwarves, if the Hosts really want the Feanorians to hunt them: I imagine some of them could be living under Rerir or Himring (in addition to the group in Nargothrond), and they were sort of friends with Eol, or at least tolerated him. Maybe they traded stuff mined from Rerir or Himring to Eol for some of his galvorn? When the Feanorians show up, these hostile Petty-Dwarves are the first Dwarves they've ever met. The Petty-Dwarves attack the Noldor at night, by ambush, because they're violent xenophobes. The Feanorians think they're Orcs and hunt them down.
Why do the Hosts want the Feanorians to hunt the Petty-Dwarves?
 
There is a line in the books about the Sindar hunting the petty-dwarves in Beleriand before they know who they are (ie, they've never met dwarves before).

We did not include that sequence in Season 3 (we showed the Sindar encountering Orcs and Dwarves), so, if we wanted to use that idea with the Petty-dwarves, it would need to be Noldor, not Sindar, hunting them by mistake.

The Fëanoreans do *very* little in this season after they move to the East, so incorporating them into the dwarf story in some way makes sense. Caranthir is going to meet the dwarves. Having an issue with petty dwarves (separate from their eviction from Nargothrond) is something we could develop.
 
I’m not a fan of it but the Hosts seem very set on it, so I was trying to incorporate it in a way that makes sense to me.

I’d rather give the Feanorians other thing to do with Dwarves, like Amros trying to sabotage his brothers’ trade with them.

By the way I didn’t intend quoting myself to come across like just repeating myself combatively. I was feeling jumbled in my mind from this topic being spread over multiple threads and trying to gather my own thoughts a little. And to have a link to conversations where you all had stuff to say about Eol.
 
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Do we need an origin story for the meteor? Like, is there something inherent to it that makes it into evil metal which makes evil swords?

Pro: It could be cool, maybe it was part of some failed scheme from Morgoth to corrupt the stars?

Con: It could appear to take some agency away from Eol - if it's the metal that makes the swords evil, maybe it's working with the metal that makes Eol go from curmudgeon to full-on villain?
Not likely; none of the Elves of Nargothrond turned evil from working with it.
 
Meteors haven't really been seen yet...it could have some significance. Or...it could just be a falling star. I don't think we want to associate Morgoth's actions with falling stars.

If Eöl is all the way over in the Misty Mountains when it falls, he's not really going to have any reason to know where it lands. He's only got one vantage point, and you can't really triangulate from that.

That being said...it's not like we need to take the astronomy of this situation too seriously. Eöl studies the stars...he sees the falling star/meteor...he follows it until he finds the crater...and finds a fragment of fancy!black!metal.

(I forget how the guy found the falling star in Stardust - a Babylon candle?)
 
OK... he probably does need to see it from at least Eriador. We still don't have a reason for him to go that far west to begin with, but maybe we don't need to explain that. Maybe he was tagging along with a Longbeard trading caravan?

(I forget how the guy found the falling star in Stardust - a Babylon candle?)
There was a flying ship and some other dudes helping, plus the unicorn. Wasn't the candle how he got back after finding her?
 
Exactly -- he can be out and about in Middle Earth and just roam over that-a-way. Then, BAM, meteor!
 
I suppose without triangulating he just walks in the direction it fell until he gets to a big crater. Not that walking in a perfectly straight line through hundreds of miles of wilderness is easy...

But the crater would be relatively easy to spot from up in the Blue Mountains.

Then again, if he wasn't already in the northern Blue Mountains, the Dwarves would have gotten there first.
 
At that time, nob8dy exactly knows WHAT a meteorite is...

Would not almost EVERYBODY would want to get there and try to find out? Or they fear it and stay away.
 
At that time, nob8dy exactly knows WHAT a meteorite is...

Would not almost EVERYBODY would want to get there and try to find out? Or they fear it and stay away.
I get the feeling that Elves are more curious...

But I don’t think there are any other stories of stuff falling to Arda, is there?
 
It depends on the timing, right? If it happens close to something else that’s big (in time), like the fight for Doriath etc, people could go Ooohh what?! but have no opportunity to check it out.
 
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