I thought I was up to date, but have just finished listening to 4.06. I have yet to listen to 4.07.In Session 4.07, it was determined that the meeting of the Dwarves and the Fëanoreans would include both Curufin and Caranthir. Caranthir sees the lucrative potential, but as you point out, Curufin is the one who appreciates their craftsmanship and is viewed by the Dwarves as a fellow craftsman.
Caranthir gets a toll road; Curufin gets Angrist.
The Dwarves also love Finrod and name him Felagund.
None of the Noldor will be completely evil. It's just that Celegorm and Curufin are amongst the more heinous of the lot, what with conspiring to have Finrod killed in Sauron's dungeons and Celegorm trying to rape Luthien. Plus, Curufin had to have loved someone at some point, or he would not have married and we would not have Celebrimbor.I thought I was up to date, but have just finished listening to 4.06. I have yet to listen to 4.07.
Curufin is the only of the Noldor mentioned as winning the friendship of the dwarves and learning their language. Just, because he does bad things, we don't have to make him completely evil. The Sons of Feanor are all very generous and friendly with Non-Elves and sometimes to their detriment.
Yes, but at the same time these two also have very notable qualities that I don't feel are being stressed I could be wrong. Celegorm wins the love of Orome and Huan. We have seen what sort of dog Huan is and it says a lot that Celegorm can win his love. Yes he falls very low, but he did have this high point. Feanor loved his father more than anyone else or anything else in Arda. Curufin is a mini-replica of his father, but the love between the two of them has not really been played out.None of the Noldor will be completely evil. It's just that Celegorm and Curufin are amongst the more heinous of the lot, what with conspiring to have Finrod killed in Sauron's dungeons and Celegorm trying to rape Luthien. Plus, Curufin had to have loved someone at some point, or he would not have married and we would not have Celebrimbor.
I am not sure Curufin hates mortals. As mentioned he is the only of the Noldor noted to have become friends with dwarves. Celegorm and Curufin hate Beren for obvious reasons, but I can't remember them speaking down to others.The Sindar hunting the Petty-Dwarves (which isn't happening in SilmFilm) was a pretty unique circumstance: the Petty-Dwarves ambushed and attacked Elves. The Elves were unaware Dwarves existed, and never got a good look at them, so they misidentified them as man-eating animals and shot them. As soon as they met other (friendlier) Dwarves and realized the 'man-eating animals' were people, they stopped hunting them.
The Sindar as a whole show more racism towards Mortals than most Noldor, though, for certain. (Celegorm and Curufin excepted). And the Sindar just. can't. get over their later hatred of the Dwarves, unlike the Noldor who befriend the Longbeards in the Second Age.
Mortals are named in the Oath as part of the list of who they are willing to fight for a silmaril.
Well, all Men were unborn at that point since the Sun had not yet risen.Soooo maybe this is just the gamer/rules lawyer in me yearning to break free, but...
"Man yet unborn upon Middle-earth,"
Nothing in there about Man after he's been born. Only unborn Man will be fought for a silmaril.
Hahahahahahaha that's so stupid but I couldn't resist.
Yes this was a rumour spread in Valinor, but when they go ME it really does not pan out like that.Feanor himself warned that mortals would usurp the place of the elves in Middle-earth when he talked the Noldor into their rebellion. Mortals are named in the Oath as part of the list of who they are willing to fight for a silmaril. So, there is a negative connotation before they even meet them.
Well Caranthir made a real effort with Haleth. I mean this is the most courteous and polite he is to anyone.The Noldor do befriend the Edain, it's true, but look at the way that plays out. Finrod meets and befriends Beor, whose descendants live in Dorthonian with Finrod's brothers. The House of Hador is united with Fingolfin and Fingon in Dor-lomin. And...Haleth turns down Caranthir's offer and moves to Brethil. The Feanoreans don't really befriend Mortals until the Easterlings show up, which makes them rather late to the party.
As mentioned when Caranthir meets them he tries, but the Men are keen to go further into the West. We never see Caranthir treat anyone with such respect.So, yes, despite them having the lands of East Beleriand that the Edain have to walk through to get to West Beleriand, the Feanoreans don't establish any close friendship or connection with them. This implies a certain amount of coolness and disinterest. I don't think this means they dislike them; merely that they would see them as short-lived and not particularly useful.
I think this is a different issue. I think the Noldor in general looked down on Men, until they interacted with them and they tended to be amazed. However, the Noldor seem to have felt the Maiar and the Valar did the same to them. The Noldor as a whole liked taking the role as the older brother, teaching and being looked up to by the Younger Races, especially Men. In doing so they become friends with many Men they look up to.I dunno about "hates" Mortals in general. But looking down on them as inferior, yes I think so. In fact I think that's a fairly common opinion among Feanorians. Andreth complained to Finrod that many Elves do so, and she would have interacted mostly with Noldor rather than Sindar. (Edit: Granted, her personal situation may have led her to overestimate how common prejudice was. But Finrod did admit it happened.) We see some Feanorians being more friendly towards Mortals, of course, but there's also a comment by Tolkien about the Sons of Feanor's general "unfriendliness" towared Men. And friendliness isn't incompatible with less-strong prejudice.
I think with ALL of the Noldor with possible exeption of Finrod, they saw Men as cannon fodder to use in their war against Morgoth. Galadriel in the 2nd Age has the same idea about dwarves. In addition they liked lauding it over Men as I previously mentioned.I agree, Caranthir makes a real effort with Haleth and is clearly impressed by her...*after* he realizes that Men can fight Orcs. Haleth's people didn't just arrive. They've been in Thargelion, next-door neighbors to the Fëanoreans for awhile (FA 312-FA 375). And all evidence suggests that...the Fëanoreans left them alone. They at least seemed to make little effort to get to know them in that time. Granted, one can easily argue that 60 years is nothing to an elf, and maybe they just hadn't gotten around to greeting their neighbors yet. BUT...that doesn't exactly paint a picture of even curiosity about Men.
There's a reason Haleth is so cool in her response to Caranthir. There's very much a 'too little, too late' vibe to how she sees his attempts at courtesy at this point. Hence the...no thanks, we'll head to Estolad. (Estolad, of course, is also in East Beleriand, and the Men who lived there were invited into other lands by elves...just not by Fëanoreans outside of Caranthir's offer to Haleth.)