Session 4.07 - Overarching Storylines, Continued

Faelivrin said:
Do you think we can potentially tell it this way, while having Eol attracted to Nan Elmoth (and darkening it) immediately after the Sun rises, or at least no later than Sunrise? If Luthien and Daeron find him at night, they might not realize how creepy he has made the forest (let's say his shadow enchantment lets starlight and the crescent moon in).
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Sounds pretty good with allowing starlight and moonlight. Elves like both, do they not?
 
I have to imagine the whole point of the 'squatter' situation is that he makes his home there well before the Sun rises, but might not be discovered until after the Girdle of Melian goes up and the Sun has risen. He could still be discovered before, but we don't *have* to...we have some flexibility.

The idea of having Eöl's meeting with Thingol happen in Thingol's court is that Thingol's power should be very implicit in that situation (causing the 'grudged' offer of payment), but also that Thingol and Melian would not see firsthand what Eöl has done with the place. So, they might dislike his presence, but they have no cause to be horrified.

If we want to have the most generous/positive interpretation of Eöl's actions, it could be that he is practicing the elvish art of conservation - he is making a land that is forever twilit in the new lands of the Sun. And so...his resistance to change is obvious, but how creepy he is might not be clear. Preserving what was is a goal the Sindar would be sympathetic with.

Also, it allows us to discuss some of the issues with the Girdle, proto-Girdle, and whatever new magics Eöl will set up once the land is 'his' - perhaps his other motivation for wanting to buy the place is that his magic didn't keep Lúthien and Daeron out (or in) as he expected it to, because they were too powerful and he wasn't recognized as the true owner by the woods. Or something.
 
Also, about Eol. How do we handle his entourage/followers? I always forget they exist. Do we excise them from the story (our Eol I think works better as solo maybe), or what? If they still exist - what part do they play in Eol's trip to Gondolin? And after?
 
I think they would be good to include, though we don't need to name them. They give him somebody to talk to and reminisce with, and someone to help him surveill his wife and son. In the text, they're the ones who tell Eol that Aredhel and Maeglin left when he comes back early from the Mountains (although it's something he could see for himself, they may give him details).

After Eol's death I imagine they're still in Nan Elmoth, although the enchantment must have dissolved at his death.
 
Faelivrin said:
I think they would be good to include, though we don't need to name them. They give him somebody to talk to and reminisce with, and someone to help him surveill his wife and son. In the text, they're the ones who tell Eol that Aredhel and Maeglin left when he comes back early from the Mountains (although it's something he could see for himself, they may give him details).

After Eol's death I imagine they're still in Nan Elmoth, although the enchantment must have dissolved at his death.
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Maybe they make whatever Eol used to drug Aredhel or something like that.
 
I guess the problem is that in my memory and interpretation, there are only like 5 truly evil Elves, ever. Feanor, 3 of his sons (the C ones), and Eol. Those 5 are all bad, and go to their deaths without repentance or second thoughts. There are other Elves that do evil things, but all of them struggled with it, had doubts, fought against what they perceived as their fates.

How grotesque are Eol's followers? Are they just following orders (with all the ethical baggage that entails), or are they eagerly and independently innovating new ways to be creepy and awful?

I suppose we'll be up against a similar problem for the Second, and *especially* for the Third Kinslaying - the Feanorean retainers: how enthusiastically do they throw themselves into killing babies and non-comabatants? How grotesque are Eol's followers?
 
amysrevenge said:
I guess the problem is that in my memory and interpretation, there are only like 5 truly evil Elves, ever. Feanor, 3 of his sons (the C ones), and Eol. Those 5 are all bad, and go to their deaths without repentance or second thoughts. There are other Elves that do evil things, but all of them struggled with it, had doubts, fought against what they perceived as their fates.

How grotesque are Eol's followers? Are they just following orders (with all the ethical baggage that entails), or are they eagerly and independently innovating new ways to be creepy and awful?

I suppose we'll be up against a similar problem for the Second, and *especially* for the Third Kinslaying - the Feanorean retainers: how enthusiastically do they throw themselves into killing babies and non-comabatants? How grotesque are Eol's followers?
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Physically, they’d look like any other Elf. So not so grotesque? I’d say that Eol’s are just following orders.
 
It's a good question, and Tolkien didn't really touch on it.

With the Feanorians, we know that some helped kill men, women, and children. But some stood aside or abandoned the Sons of Feanor (at both Nargothrond and the Third Kinslaying), and some died defending the Havens. But we don't know what the more violent ones were thinking and feeling. I'd like some to stand aside at the Second Kinslaying, though in smaller numbers.

Personally, I'm OK with there being more than just 5 Elves who do evil things without much remorse, although there shouldn't be tons of them. I think in "Quendi and Eldar" there's a comment that some Avari were pretty bad people, though none were as bad as Eol.

We have a few options with Eol's friends:
1. They help Eol do wicked things. They may or may not feel conflicted.
2. They're unaware he raped Aredhel (to whatever extent we make it a rape) but otherwise help him do bad things. May be conflicted.
3. They start to feel like he's going too far. When Aredhel and Maeglin leave, Eol's friends purposely don't intervene. They do tell him his family left, but he can see that for himself.
4. They start to desert him before Aredhel and Maeglin do. Maybe even before he meets them. Losing his buddies drives him more over the edge into control-freak mode who won't let ANYONE escape him. This would be interesting, but I don't know that it's worth it to take the time to show his buddies deserting him, unless they do so during episodes that already deal with Aredhel.
5. Get rid of them. Not my favored approach, personally.

In any case, I imagine he only has 3-4 followers.
 
Faelivrin said:
It's a good question, and Tolkien didn't really touch on it.

With the Feanorians, we know that some helped kill men, women, and children. But some stood aside or abandoned the Sons of Feanor (at both Nargothrond and the Third Kinslaying), and some died defending the Havens. But we don't know what the more violent ones were thinking and feeling. I'd like some to stand aside at the Second Kinslaying, though in smaller numbers.

Personally, I'm OK with there being more than just 5 Elves who do evil things without much remorse, although there shouldn't be tons of them. I think in "Quendi and Eldar" there's a comment that some Avari were pretty bad people, though none were as bad as Eol.

We have a few options with Eol's friends:
1. They help Eol do wicked things. They may or may not feel conflicted.
2. They're unaware he raped Aredhel (to whatever extent we make it a rape) but otherwise help him do bad things. May be conflicted.
3. They start to feel like he's going too far. When Aredhel and Maeglin leave, Eol's friends purposely don't intervene. They do tell him his family left, but he can see that for himself.
4. They start to desert him before Aredhel and Maeglin do. Maybe even before he meets them. Losing his buddies drives him more over the edge into control-freak mode who won't let ANYONE escape him. This would be interesting, but I don't know that it's worth it to take the time to show his buddies deserting him, unless they do so during episodes that already deal with Aredhel.
5. Get rid of them. Not my favored approach, personally.

In any case, I imagine he only has 3-4 followers.
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My guess is that they feel more and more conflicted regarding his behavior with Aredhel and just tell him where Aredhel and Maeglin went when they leave. Eol doesn't seem to do anything particularly heinous until Aredhel appears in his neck of the woods, maybe one starts feeling creeped out when he starts shifting the forest so she finds her way to him?...
 
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