Session 4.07 - Overarching Storylines, Continued

[Ange1e4e5]

Is this mind reading power of Finrod's really that good? I find that the more we discuss it, the more problematic this appears to me. It can't be something that works without a fault all of the time, and something there's no way to avoid or nothing to use to counter it. It get that he's powerful, but it raises some questions. Why does he live so far away from the enemy? Closer to Angband he could be of better use, right? How does it work, exactly? Is it easy, or does it cost him? What does the information look like, the things he 'reads' in people's minds? Does it contain words, pictures, feelings, desires - what? I'm sorry if we've been through this and it hasn't stuck in my thick head... From the texts that I have read, I find it to be very unclear. It seems that one can interpret it to mean that Finrod can read the minds of Men specifically, which would mean that he does not necessarily have the power to read the minds of elves. If that's the case, things are much less problematic.

We haven’t really talked about how powerful Finrod is. I myself have assumed that his abilities are on par with Galadriel, who is able to read the Fellowship’s minds.

Why he chose to live so far from the Enemy? Because Ulmo said so, I think.

 

[Faelivrin]

Petty-Dwarves: I still see no good reason for the Feanorians to hunt Petty-Dwarves. It's completely out of character to do it for sport, and absurd that they wouldn't have been informed of Finrod's alliance with the Dwarves by the time Nargothrond is built. They do lack modern telecommunication, but that doesn't make all communication between kingdoms categorically impossible. We know Finrod visited the Feanorians multiple times, and that Maedhros visited his cousins multiple times (which we should show this season and next). Presumably Fingon did too.

Hildorien: the thread "What ever happened in Hildorien?" works out what Morgoth and Sauron do there and when each is gone from Angband. Is there more we need to discuss about it?

Dagor Aglareb: I think Morgoth should start this battle, as Tolkien wrote. Not Gothmog.

Dwarf trading: Besides Caranthir, there also needs to be a connection between Dwarves and Curufin, given that he was the expert on Khuzdul and his son befriended them. I think Aegnor and Finrod should interact with Dwarves mainly outside of Feanorian lands; there's no reason Dwarves would be unable to visit Dorthonion and we know they travelled in West Beleriand. I like Amysrevenge's suggestion that Dwarves are better than Noldor at fast crafting. Maybe also mass-production (by hand, of course).

Eldalote: She has a Sindarin same Edhellos so it's very unlikely she stayed in Valinor, and I haven't seen any text saying she stayed. Actually we should call her by her Sindarin name, like most of the Noldor.



Finrod's mind-reading: (sourced from rereading the Osanwe-kenta, in the Vinyar Tengwar journal) Mind-reading only works if the other person lets you. Most minds are "open" by default, but the moment someone closes their mind, the telepath is 100% locked out. There is no mind-reading by force. Elves and unfallen Ainur may suspect closed-minded people are hiding something, but of course can't prove it. Dwarves, in particular, seem likely to close their minds out of habit around non-Dwarves, and if they do Finrod will have to just get used to it.

Closing your mind to telepathy doesn't work well while you're talking. While you say something, a good telepath can read what surface thoughts lie behind your words. This lets Finrod be a universal translator, and maybe even detect spoken lies.

Finrod might be unable to read the minds of Elves as easily as Men, but I doubt it. From what I'm reading, willingly talking automatically opens any mind to reading, although it isn't clear to me whether being forced to talk through torture opens the mind, or if spoken words can be assessed for truth or lies during torture. It seems not, or at least not easily. Elves can also talk to each other telepathically, as happens at the end of the RotK. Voluntary telepathy is very hard for Incarnates, though, and very few Elves (let alone Men or Dwarves) are likely to be good at it. Finrod and Galadriel are very unusual (Finrod being more powerful than his sister).

None of this is a Detect Demons or Detect Evil power, though. Telepathy also isn't a passive ability that just happens. Somebody has to concentrate on it, and I'm sure it takes effort. Mind-reading is also two-way, so if Finrod reads Bobwe, B0bwe gets to read Finrod right back.

Minds are hard to read if they're distracted (by prayer to Eru, concentrating on something, or telepathy with somebody else)


edit: spelling

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Petty-Dwarves: I still see no good reason for the Feanorians to hunt Petty-Dwarves. It's completely out of character to do it for sport, and absurd that they wouldn't have been informed of Finrod's alliance with the Dwarves by the time Nargothrond is built. They do lack modern telecommunication, but that doesn't make all communication between kingdoms categorically impossible. We know Finrod visited the Feanorians multiple times, and that Maedhros visited his cousins multiple times (which we should show this season and next). Presumably Fingon did too.

Hildorien: the thread "What ever happened in Hildorien?" works out what Morgoth and Sauron do there and when each is gone from Angband. Is there more we need to discuss about it?

Dagor Aglareb: I think Morgoth should start this battle, as Tolkien wrote. Not Gothmog.

Dwarf trading: Besides Caranthir, there also needs to be a connection between Dwarves and Curufin, given that he was the expert on Khuzdul and his son befriended them. I think Aegnor and Finrod should interact with Dwarves mainly outside of Feanorian lands; there's no reason Dwarves would be unable to visit Dorthonion and we know they travelled in West Beleriand. I like Amysrevenge's suggestion that Dwarves are better than Noldor at fast crafting. Maybe also mass-production (by hand, of course).

Eldalote: She has a Sindarin same Edhellos so it's very unlikely she stayed in Valinor, and I haven't seen any text saying she stayed. Actually we should call her by her Sindarin name, like most of the Noldor.



Finrod's mind-reading: (sourced from rereading the Osanwe-kenta, in the Vinyar Tengwar journal) Mind-reading only works if the other person lets you. Most minds are "open" by default, but the moment someone closes their mind, the telepath is 100% locked out. There is no mind-reading by force. Elves and unfallen Ainur may suspect closed-minded people are hiding something, but of course can't prove it. Dwarves, in particular, see likely to close their minds out of habit around non-Dwarves, and if they do Finrod will have to just get used to it.

Closing your mind to telepathy doesn't work well while you're talking. While you say something, a good telepath can read what surface thoughts lie behind your words. This lets Finrod be a universal translator, and maybe even detect spoken lies.

Finrod might be unable to read the minds of Elves as easily as Men, but I doubt it. From what I'm reading, willingly talking automatically opens any mind to reading, although it isn't clear to me whether being forced to talk through torture opens the mind, or if spoken words can be assessed for truth or lies during torture. It seems not, or at least not easily. Elves can also talk to each other telepathically, as happens at the end of the RotK. Voluntary telepathy is extremely hard for Incarnates, though, and very few Elves (let alone Men or Dwarves) are likely to be good at it. Finrod and Galadriel are very unusual (Finrod being more powerful than his sister).

None of this is a Detect Demons or Detect Evil power, though. Telepathy also isn't a passive ability that just happens. Somebody has to concentrate on it, and I'm sure it takes effort. Mind-reading is also two-way, so if Finrod reads Bobwe, B0bwe gets to read Finrod right back.

Minds are hard to read if they're distracted (by prayer to Eru, concentrating on something, or telepathy with somebody else)

What should we have Gothmog do this season? He’s the only one who can’t go to Hildorien, since corruption and persuasion doesn’t seem to be his thing. Gothmog can’t just be sitting on his heels.

 

[Faelivrin]

Does he have to do something in particular? Tevildo isn't doing anything, but I know he's more minor...

Gothmog can't be the captain in the field during the Dagor Aglareb, can he? If we field Balrogs then somebody important and named is supposed to die...

He can try to recruit Glaurung to his "side" against Sauron, and fail because 1. He isn't subtle, and 2. Glaurung intends to be independent. But Glaurung's existence is a surprise in Episode 13, so Gothmog's attempted recruiting would be hard to show this season...

Was there a suggestion for Gothmog to help enable Glaurung's escape, and try to blame it on Sauron? Is that the sort of thing he'd do?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Does he have to do something in particular? Tevildo isn't doing anything, but I know he's more minor...

Gothmog can't be the captain in the field during the Dagor Aglareb, can he? If we field Balrogs then somebody important and named is supposed to die...

He can try to recruit Glaurung to his "side" against Sauron, and fail because 1. He isn't subtle, and 2. Glaurung intends to be independent. But Glaurung's existence is a surprise in Episode 13, so Gothmog's attempted recruiting would be hard to show this season...

Was there a suggestion for Gothmog to help enable Glaurung's escape, and try to blame it on Sauron? Is that the sort of thing he'd do?

No he can’t, really. With the exception of Maedhros’ capture after Feanor’s death, Balrogs don’t show up unless somebody is KIA.

I’ve suggested Gothmog letting Glaurung loose as a poorly thought-out move, more like a “let’s play with the shiniest new toy” kind of action. And also because he got bored.

 

[Faelivrin]

Could it be a joint venture? Gothmog thinks he's going to make friends with Glaurung and get him on his "side", or get Sauron framed, while Glaurung is actually trying to manipulate him for his own gain. Gothmog isn't good at subtlety, but Glaurung is young and less experienced (just how old is Glaurung at that point, anyway?)

 

[MithLuin]

No he can’t, really. With the exception of Maedhros’ capture after Feanor’s death, Balrogs don’t show up unless somebody is KIA.

Keep in mind that we did subtract the balrogs from that scene for that very reason. We had Sauron and trolls destroy Maedhros' army and capture him.

As for Finrod, we've done very little to showcase his ability to this point. Meeting the Sindar and learning their language is our opportunity to show how he can pluck ideas from people's minds.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Keep in mind that we did subtract the balrogs from that scene for that very reason. We had Sauron and trolls destroy Maedhros' army and capture him.

As for Finrod, we've done very little to showcase his ability to this point. Meeting the Sindar and learning their language is our opportunity to show how he can pluck ideas from people's minds.

True.

Offhand, what did we have Sauron do for that scene?

 

[Faelivrin]

He sang a song that paralyzed the Elves.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

He sang a song that paralyzed the Elves.

Oh. That’s disappointing.

 

[Faelivrin]

It has occurred to me regarding the captives storyline, that if all the named characters who get captured are rescued or let go or escape, it'll look like getting captured is... less of a big deal than it really is. I think the reality is that most captives remained stuck in Angband (unless they died there) and I think we should have at least one named character get captured and never return. They're gone, and even former captives can't say for certain if they're alive or dead. We'd probably have to invent somebody, but I think it'd be worth it.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

It has occurred to me regarding the captives storyline, that if all the named characters who get captured are rescued or let go or escape, it'll look like getting captured is... less of a big deal than it really is. I think the reality is that most captives remained stuck in Angband (unless they died there) and I think we should have at least one named character get captured and never return. They're gone, and even former captives can't say for certain if they're alive or dead. We'd probably have to invent somebody, but I think it'd be worth it.

Well, the main named character we know got captured and never returned was Gelmir, brother of Gwindor. He was captured in the Dagor Bragollach, and then at the beginning of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, his arms and legs are chopped off and he’s left to bleed to death.

We’ll have to invent someone, methinks.

 

[Faelivrin]

Yeah, I meant in addition to poor Gelmir, and earlier. This is the season when 3-5 Elves are going to get out of Angband, so we'll be setting a trend. Clearly it will be unutterably awful for all of them, but I'm concerned that the Iron Hell won't look like a black hole with "Abandon All Hope, Ye Who Enter Here" on the gates like it ought to.

It will help if a couple dozen are captured and only a few return, but it'll be more powerful if we make the audience know and like one of the victims who never returns.

(But at the same time, having too many captured at once would make Dagor Aglareb look like less of a beatdown for Morgoth. We could have some captured in separate skirmishes.)

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Yeah, I meant in addition to poor Gelmir, and earlier. This is the season when 3-5 Elves are going to get out of Angband, so we'll be setting a trend. Clearly it will be unutterably awful for all of them, but I'm concerned that the Iron Hell won't look like a black hole with "Abandon All Hope, Ye Who Enter Here" on the gates like it ought to.

As far as I know, none of the named characters get captured and stay captured apart from Gelmir, and there’s a long gap of named characters getting killed from where we are now until F.A. 400, when Eol kills Aredhel and is subsequently executed (I’d like to see Turgon execute Eol personally).

On the other hand, the catch-and-release program doesn’t ramp up in earnest until the Dagor Bragollach.

 

[MithLuin]

We will likely be inventing a character for the 'and he was never seen again' role. Keep in mind that someone like Rog is merely a background character at this point - he's had no lines and the audience doesn't know him (yet). He could distinguish himself in the escape, but be captured with other elves...and the 'main' elf captured with him is the one who remains trapped in Angband.

 

[Haakon]

Thanks Faelivrin for clearing that out (Finrod). That's more or less what I have been thinking, and I reacted to the idea that Finrod's power was such that the enemy would stay away from him. This seems not to be the case.

Dagor Aglareb: I think Morgoth should start this battle, as Tolkien wrote. Not Gothmog.

Yes. Gothmog is many things, but he's not one who takes his own initiatives - not of that magnitude. He is his master's servant. I agree, Morgoth should make this mistake himself. He could blame someine else for the outcome, though. He should.

Petty-Dwarves: I still see no good reason for the Feanorians to hunt Petty-Dwarves. It's completely out of character to do it for sport, and absurd that they wouldn't have been informed of Finrod's alliance with the Dwarves by the time Nargothrond is built. They do lack modern telecommunication, but that doesn't make all communication between kingdoms categorically impossible. We know Finrod visited the Feanorians multiple times, and that Maedhros visited his cousins multiple times (which we should show this season and next). Presumably Fingon did too.

Yeah I find this to be increasingly problematic. Let's just skip the hunting of the Petty-Dwarves. If we desperately want to touch on this, we could have one get accidentally killed during a hunt or whatever, and the Petty-Dwarves could accuse the Fëanoreans saying they did it on purpose.

Oh. That’s disappointing.

Why is this disappointing? He shows the magnitude of his power by quite easily controlling Maedhros and a number of Noldor. Leaving others to do the dirty work shows his kind of leadership.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Thanks Faelivrin for clearing that out (Finrod). That's more or less what I have been thinking, and I reacted to the idea that Finrod's power was such that the enemy would stay away from him. This seems not to be the case.


Yes. Gothmog is many things, but he's not one who takes his own initiatives - not of that magnitude. He is his master's servant. I agree, Morgoth should make this mistake himself. He could blame someine else for the outcome, though. He should.


Yeah I find this to be increasingly problematic. Let's just skip the hunting of the Petty-Dwarves. If we desperately want to touch on this, we could have one get accidentally killed during a hunt or whatever, and the Petty-Dwarves could accuse the Fëanoreans saying they did it on purpose.


Why is this disappointing? He shows the magnitude of his power by quite easily controlling Maedhros and a number of Noldor. Leaving others to do the dirty work shows his kind of leadership.

For the Petty-Dwarves: maybe they’re scouting for Orcs and a Petty-Dwarf gets trampled?

My thoughts on the Dagor Aglareb are that if we have Morgoth make the mistake, he should do it when he thinks the Elves are weakened, say after the Ban.

Why I thought it’s disappointing? Because I had expected Sauron to do at least some of the dirty work, like Darth Vader.

 

[Haakon]

Morgoth is a dictator so he makes decisions on military strategy. He can make bad decisions. I honestly don’t see the problem (at least not that it is a big problem). But yes, I agree that news of the Ban could be a good trigger.

 

[Faelivrin]

The Dagor Aglareb looks like a huge defeat in the short term, and many Elves (*cough* Fingolfin) take it as the death-knell to Morgoth's side.

But from a long-term perspective, what happened? Morgoth spent some easily-replaced cannon-fodder to:
* Learn details about his enemies' military capabilities, methods, organizations, and strengths
* Take some captives
* Lull his enemies into a false sense of superiority

He tries Orcs one more time with a different strategy, again learning new military intelligence, and then starts making bigger monsters. He loses the battle, but still wins the war.

So while Dagor Aglareb was a indeed mistake in underestimating his enemies and overestimating his own troops, it isn't as big a blunder as it looks. Morgoth's Orcs were defeated... but Angband itself and the captains remained unharmed.

 

[MithLuin]

The biggest problem Morgoth is facing when the season begins is that sunlight defeats his troops. His trolls literally turn to stone in sunlight, and his orcs are terrified of it and won't go out in it without strong persuasion (and are then weak when they do). So, figuring out how to make clouds to blot out the sun to allow his troops to even take the field is a victory (of sorts). It's true Angband doesn't win the Dagor Aglareb...but they are able to field an army and fight it.

But it's possible that Morgoth is not home at the time of the Dagor Aglareb, and if that's the case, then certainly Gothmog is calling the shots. He's a loyal yes-man to Morgoth and won't do much on his own initiative, but he's definitely who Morgoth would have left in charge. So, this returns to the question of Hildorien, and what roles we want Morgoth and Sauron (or other characters) to play there.

Gothmog's ongoing role in this project is his feud with Sauron. Gothmog has physical strength and the kind of loyalty that Morgoth finds unquestioned. He's a 'natural' leader. Sauron...is not physically strong (compared to balrogs; obviously it's a different matter compared to elves!). He has his tricks and his magic and his clever plots that unfold gradually. He's careful with words. They are drastically different from one another, though they both serve Morgoth and they're both a bit hung up on power (Morgoth's followers followed him in the first place because of his power). It's clear that Sauron will be involved in capturing elves, questioning them, and then (allowing) some to escape. He'll be spying. He'll be ferreting out the truth of the Kinslaying. He might be involved in the Hildorien storyline (or he might not).

So...what is Gothmog doing during all of this? He can't make dragons himself; that's Morgoth's project. He can't be involved in Hildorien; the fall of Men is nothing to do with him. He can't fight in the Dagor Aglareb - that's specifically an orc-only battle. He can't train trolls to endure sunlight. So...what is he doing? 'Ruling Angband in Morgoth's absence' would be an interesting enough side plot, but we've seen him do that before (Season 2). How is it different this time around?



Regarding the Petty-dwarves....'hunting' is the wrong word. We're not picturing a group of Noldor going out to hunt wild boar and 'accidentally' bagging some petty-dwarves instead. This is a case of a small group of Petty-dwarves being mistaken for creatures of Morgoth and killed in an act of aggression - it could be started by either side, but the violence is a fight, not an issue of attacking helpless creatures and hunting them down.

We don't need to have this scene, but I don't think we *can't* have it, either. My only stipulation would be that if we do indeed give this scene to the Fëanoreans, it occurs before they meet the dwarves of the Blue Mountains. Even if they have heard that dwarves exist, that doesn't mean that they'd automatically assume *these* are Thingol's allies, and not Morgoth's. Something about the scenario should suggest that these new beings are in league with Morgoth, and then...the Fëanoreans would have little compunction in slaughtering them. Right? That was their reaction on meeting Morgoth's orcs, Morgoth's werewolves, Morgoth's balrogs, and Morgoth's trolls (not that those last two went very well....)

Anyway, as far as I am concerned, the real issue here is that, if such an incident occurs, how does that impact the relationship between the Dwarves and the Fëanoreans? We know they're going to get along fairly well...but...what is the consequence for having slaughtered some of their (exiled) kin?