Session 4.07 - Overarching Storylines, Continued

Announcement: This session has been postponed one week and will occur on February 1st at the usual time.



Presumably, Fingolfin and Fingon will talk to each other. A more minor character (such as a steward) may emerge if needed, but we don't necessarily need one yet. Turgon and Aredhel are still around in Nevrast for most of this Season.

Episodes 1-5(?): All of the Noldor have the chance to interact with each other, as geography has not separated their storylines, from the opening of the Season until the Mereth Aderthad. (They will briefly go their separate ways to establish their new realms in the episode prior to the Feast.)

It is true that the rest of the Season sees the Noldor scattered - we will need to plan 'visits' in order to see them together. Both the Dagor Aglareb and fending off Glaurung should involve some coordinated efforts among many of the Noldor together.

...And then next Season we get Men.

So while I definitely think all of these elven lords have entourages and aren't travelling (or doing much of anything) alone, it's also probably true that those remain background characters with the occasional line, rather than a minor character consistently used to give one of our elven lords someone to talk to. But...we shall see!
 
How should Daeron react to Galadriel? Are we likely to have time to show them interacting?
He’s probably part of the welcoming committee, so to speak. He’s wary of her as she’s an outsider, but not as much as later on when he betrays Beren and Luthien to Thingol.
 
Announcement: This session has been postponed one week and will occur on February 1st at the usual time.



Presumably, Fingolfin and Fingon will talk to each other. A more minor character (such as a steward) may emerge if needed, but we don't necessarily need one yet. Turgon and Aredhel are still around in Nevrast for most of this Season.

Episodes 1-5(?): All of the Noldor have the chance to interact with each other, as geography has not separated their storylines, from the opening of the Season until the Mereth Aderthad. (They will briefly go their separate ways to establish their new realms in the episode prior to the Feast.)

It is true that the rest of the Season sees the Noldor scattered - we will need to plan 'visits' in order to see them together. Both the Dagor Aglareb and fending off Glaurung should involve some coordinated efforts among many of the Noldor together.

...And then next Season we get Men.

So while I definitely think all of these elven lords have entourages and aren't travelling (or doing much of anything) alone, it's also probably true that those remain background characters with the occasional line, rather than a minor character consistently used to give one of our elven lords someone to talk to. But...we shall see!
When will we be talking about what characters we will need? March?
 
I would have preferred Sauron to get his hands dirty with a weapon, not look weak and cowardly by having other people do it.

He certainly does not come off weak when he holds Maedhros in place whilst preventing his entire bodyguard (numbering in the hundreds) from getting to him.
 
He certainly does not come off weak when he holds Maedhros in place whilst preventing his entire bodyguard (numbering in the hundreds) from getting to him.
Oh it’s like that? That makes it a little better that he’s involved.

It’s just that whenever a bad guy doesn’t do his own dirty work in fiction, it makes me think that he can’t because he doesn’t have the ability or he’s cowardly. Compare Darth Vader from Star Wars, who fights alongside his men, with Karl Stromberg from The Spy who Loved Me, who is an old man who has to rely on Jaws to fight James Bond. Even Morgoth has to be persuaded to confront Fingolfin because “he alone of the Valar knew fear.”
 
Listen. Sauron will not look like an old man. He will not look like Vader. He will look like he has divine powers.
 
Something that has been troubling me a bit is Luthien. We’ve been trying to find ways to integrate her into our story, to make her active and awesome. That’s good. But I also want us to be careful with that.

Part of what makes the B&L story wonderful is how bad the odds are. Beren is just this one guy, ok he’s probably awesome in all sorts of ways, but still, and Luthien is fantastic but even so, she’s not a powerful warrior. The reader of the story is amazed that they make it. The things they accomplish are, in relation to their powers, mind blowing. That’s how it should be. It’s part of Tolkien’s idea of how heroic stories should be told. Who saves the world? The smallest and most unlikely person.
So if we show Luthien as a powerful person too soon, we risk botching it. I’m not saying we’ve done it wrong yet. I just want us to be careful about that.
 
Something that has been troubling me a bit is Luthien. We’ve been trying to find ways to integrate her into our story, to make her active and awesome. That’s good. But I also want us to be careful with that.

Part of what makes the B&L story wonderful is how bad the odds are. Beren is just this one guy, ok he’s probably awesome in all sorts of ways, but still, and Luthien is fantastic but even so, she’s not a powerful warrior. The reader of the story is amazed that they make it. The things they accomplish are, in relation to their powers, mind blowing. That’s how it should be. It’s part of Tolkien’s idea of how heroic stories should be told. Who saves the world? The smallest and most unlikely person.
So if we show Luthien as a powerful person too soon, we risk botching it. I’m not saying we’ve done it wrong yet. I just want us to be careful about that.
We could have Luthien as more of a counselor figure, say looking into the Kinslaying and talking Thingol down from executing the Noldor, to deemphasize her abilities as a sorceress. Maybe she could be a healer. At the same time, play up the abilities of Sauron, one of her main opponents in Beren and Luthien.
 
I agree that there is a temptation to 'give it away' and make Lúthien awesome and amazing at all times, ruining any surprise when she confronts Sauron. So, agreed that we don't want to do that. I want her quest with Beren to be surprising and exciting, meaning that everything about it should be new....

...but new in a way that people believe of a character they've seen before. There should be hints and indications that she has this in her all along. So, she's revealing herself, and that's new....but it doesn't come from left field that she has more magical abilities than any elf ever. She's just been using them in subtle, non-combat ways, like dancing and singing light into the newly constructed Menegroth (etc).

So that's the challenge for this season....how do we show Lúthien being awesome but staying behind the scenes (mostly)?
 
I agree that there is a temptation to 'give it away' and make Lúthien awesome and amazing at all times, ruining any surprise when she confronts Sauron. So, agreed that we don't want to do that. I want her quest with Beren to be surprising and exciting, meaning that everything about it should be new....

...but new in a way that people believe of a character they've seen before. There should be hints and indications that she has this in her all along. So, she's revealing herself, and that's new....but it doesn't come from left field that she has more magical abilities than any elf ever. She's just been using them in subtle, non-combat ways, like dancing and singing light into the newly constructed Menegroth (etc).

So that's the challenge for this season....how do we show Lúthien being awesome but staying behind the scenes (mostly)?
She gets involved in a way that does not immediately involve magic, perhaps? I’ve suggested healing. Maybe Luthien wants to do more to resist Morgoth, but Thingol is already getting paranoid about an Elf or Man stealing her from him, and this explains why she is lacking in presence until Beren arrives in Doriath. We could have Aegnor try and court her, but screw up and Thingol gets set off.
 
It'd be cool if Luthien herself doesn't know she has all that power in her until the Quest for the Silmaril.

I like the healing suggestion. I seem to recall Melian becoming or being healer, Luthien can learn from her mother.
 
I like the Luthien healing idea too. After all, her mom served Este, so it's definitely in the family. It fits with her later story line, in which she nurses Beren back from the brink of death several times, but doesn't necessarily scream "here's a girl who can send Sauron fleeing from his own fortress." It could be interesting to show her having a degree of giftedness in healing or soothing psychological pain as well. I've always been struck by how incredibly traumatized the character of Beren must be by the time he meets her (having been wandering, completely alone except for the fell monsters hunting him, for years...but only after racing to rescue his last remaining kinfolk and arriving just in time to find them all slaughtered). The narrative suggests that she basically guides him back to a mental state where he can deal with people again, and while obviously their love has a lot to do with that, I imagine it would also take a great deal of patience, gentleness, and counseling ability.
 
I agree, the contrast of pre- and post-capture Orodreth should be startling to everyone.
A belated note to say I really like this direction. I think it would really pay dividends down the road when Orodreth lets Turin take over anti-Morgoth strategy for his kingdom. If he's looking at Turin advocating for aggressive action on the one hand, and Gwindor urging caution on the other, it would be like facing a choice between his pre- and post-captivity selves. It's not just that Turin has an incredibly dominant personality, it's that Orodreth sees in Turin those characteristics he wishes he hadn't lost...whereas, in Gwindor, he sees an exaggerated mirror image of his own suffering and everything he wishes he wasn't.

Personally, I've always wanted to bang my head against the wall when Orodreth lets Turin throw away Nargothrond's defenses in a rash pursuit of glory. I mean, seriously, buddy, why aren't you listening to Gwindor, who actually has experience of Angband's power?? Adding the layer of Orodreth's own trauma makes for a much more engaging scenario, it seems to me: he's not just dumb, he's messed up.

It also adds a layer of evil brilliance to Morgoth's strategy. Where can Turin and his curse make the biggest impact? In the court of a king who's predisposed to see his most foolish impulses as most admirable.

For that matter, it even adds a twist of the knife for poor Gwindor: he escapes Angband and comes home to report to the one king who ought to be able to empathize with his suffering...and gets tossed aside because he's not the kind of survivor that Orodreth wishes he could be. Ouch.
 
I like the Luthien healing idea too. After all, her mom served Este, so it's definitely in the family. It fits with her later story line, in which she nurses Beren back from the brink of death several times, but doesn't necessarily scream "here's a girl who can send Sauron fleeing from his own fortress." It could be interesting to show her having a degree of giftedness in healing or soothing psychological pain as well. I've always been struck by how incredibly traumatized the character of Beren must be by the time he meets her (having been wandering, completely alone except for the fell monsters hunting him, for years...but only after racing to rescue his last remaining kinfolk and arriving just in time to find them all slaughtered). The narrative suggests that she basically guides him back to a mental state where he can deal with people again, and while obviously their love has a lot to do with that, I imagine it would also take a great deal of patience, gentleness, and counseling ability.
And even then, Luthien can’t do everything. Beren couldn’t talk about what he went through in his journey from Dorthonion to Doriath for the rest of his life.
 
I can't like your post enough times, Eliza. Those are some profound character observations. :( Poor Orodreth... poor Gwindor. :( They need hugs.

That brings up yet another misery for Gwindor, that when he comes home to Nargothrond he's initially refused entry because escapees from Angband are shunned, suspected of being under the Spell of Bottomless Dread. We are (I hope) going to show at least one such Elf betraying Elfland, but it may still end up making Orodreth in particular look rather cold. It seems like another good reason to make his own mother Edhellos an example be-Spelled Elf, whose betrayal either gets Orodreth captured, or gets Angrod killed. Orodreth initially barring Gwindor might seem a bit less cold if one of those betrayals was very personal for the king.
 
I can't like your post enough times, Eliza. That is some profound character observations. :( Poor Orodreth... poor Gwindor. :(

That brings up yet another misery for Gwindor, that when he comes home to Nargothrond he's initially refused entry because escapees from Angband are shunned, suspected of being under the Spell of Bottomless Dread. We are (I hope) going to show at least one such Elf betraying Elfland, but it may still end up making Orodreth in particular look rather cold. It seems like another good reason to make his own mother Edhellos the example be-Spelled Elf, whose betrayal either gets Orodreth captured, or gets Angrod killed. Orodreth initially barring Gwindor might seem a bit less cold if one of those betrayals was very personal for Orodreth.
If we have Eldalote betray via the Spell of Bottomless Dread (who I thought it was said stayed in Valinor since her name does not appear in The History of Middle-Earth’s descendants of Finwe), maybe he mercy-kills her, since Maedhros is the only known elf to have committed suicide? There’s little hope of living after a betrayal like that gets someone killed.
 
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