Session 4.08 - Overarching Storylines, Final (I hope!)

Faelivrin said:
(OMG, trying to bring together the ideas and conclusions from a dozen separate threads into a single, coherent season outline is going to be... challenging. :confused: I wish Nick, Marie, me, and whoever else wanted to write it could get together in one room, with notecards and a bulletin board. I actually think I should try the old-school notecard-plotting at home.)
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Yes, this is pretty much what spawned the script discussions back in season one. Had I the time, I'd consider setting up a wiki (it would have the added benefit of being a central location for new people to see what is going on). Unfortunately, since I started working from home to take care of the baby, I weirdly have less time than I did before, and hosting the episode outline discussions and working on the outlines themselves will likely be the most I can reliably handle.
 
I'm thinking of setting up a Google Sheet with each event in a cell, and each storyline in a column, kind of like a bulletin board. Then everybody could edit it and have a say. Shifting the timing of one storyline relative to another would be a matter of copying, pasting, and inserting/deleting empty rows. Getting two storylines next to each other could be done either by hiding the columns in-between, or moving one column.

What do you think, would that be helpful?
 
Faelivrin said:
I'm thinking of setting up a Google Sheet with each event in a cell, and each storyline in a column, kind of like a bulletin board. Then everybody could edit it and have a say. Shifting the timing of one storyline relative to another would be a matter of copying, pasting, and inserting/deleting empty rows. Getting two storylines next to each other could be done either by hiding the columns in-between, or moving one column.

What do you think, would that be helpful?
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It certainly wouldn't hurt.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
Yes, this is pretty much what spawned the script discussions back in season one. Had I the time, I'd consider setting up a wiki (it would have the added benefit of being a central location for new people to see what is going on). Unfortunately, since I started working from home to take care of the baby, I weirdly have less time than I did before, and hosting the episode outline discussions and working on the outlines themselves will likely be the most I can reliably handle.
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What do you mean by a wiki?
 
Phillip Menzies suggested doing a Gantt chart at the end of one of the sessions this season, and that would likely be the most helpful format for keeping track of all of this. I've got an Excel chart I can update, but it would be clumsy to manipulate, probably. It would get annoying if people started shifting the reveal of the Kinslaying or Ulmo's dreams back and forth, but we'll almost definitely move stuff like that around to fit into the season where we want it.

Unfortunately, I don't have Microsoft Project, and am not aware of a simple way to make a Gantt chart without it.

So far, these are the characters whose storylines I *know* we want to track this season:

Galadriel (and Celeborn)
Turgon
Finrod
Thingol
Fingolfin (and Fingon)
Fëanoreans
Dwarves (Norn/Telchar/Petty-dwarves)
Eöl? (May appear in only a couple of episodes)
Villains

Someone like Aredhel will have a role and appear in several scenes, but won't have any of her own storyline to follow (she shows up in Turgon's scenes, mostly, with one independent visit with Fingon). So, I wouldn't feel the need to track her through the season independently. Likewise, Melian is part of the Thingol storyline, as they are mostly appearing together, with some independent scenes with Galadriel.

And we know we have 13 episodes to work with.
 
I didn't even know what a Gantt chart is. But I guess I already made one (in Paint!) to illustrate the post-Nirnaeth storylines.

But Marie, if you would put the current version of your spreadsheet somewhere I can download, please, I will try to start updating it with plans from each session and other threads.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
What do you mean by a wiki?
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Well, if you are familiar with wikipedia.org, people use wikis to organize information of all kinds. They work great as a "writer's bible" of sorts, because if you are confused about a topic in one article, there is probably a link to another that will explain it.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
Well, if you are familiar with wikipedia.org, people use wikis to organize information of all kinds. They work great as a "writer's bible" of sorts, because if you are confused about a topic in one article, there is probably a link to another that will explain it.
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I’ve used Wikipedia before but never edited it, I’m just wondering how we would use a wiki in the context of the SilmFilm project.
 
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I think gothmog comes about as a primitive thug a bit too often...

If glaurung wants out he could just press some orcs and trolls to let him out in an unseen moment, i mean he is not a prisoner right? Orcs or trolls, who would be the common guardians, or even some of the more stupid warrior-demons... what could they do against a glaurung? Little or Nothing i guess...
 
Haerangil said:
I think gothmog comes about as a primitive thug a bit too often...

If glaurung wants out he could just press some orcs and trolls to let him out in an unseen moment, i mean he is not a prisoner right? Orcs or trolls, who would be the common guardians, or even some of the more stupid warrior-demons... what could they do against a glaurung? Little or Nothing i guess...
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Well, that’s the dynamic that’s been set up between him and Sauron (which I am not in favor of), since I would prefer Sauron to have some fighting skills instead of relying on his powers. Sauron is the plotter and schemer, Gothmog is more of a blunt instrument type. Keeps making me think of Ebony Maw and Cull Obsidian, the two bad guys sent to take the Time Stone in Avengers: Infinity War. Ebony Maw is Thanos’ herald, who has telekinetic powers and likes to hear himself talk, while Cull Obsidian is a blunt instrument type who’s as big as the Hulk. Furthermore, Ebony Maw abandons Cull Obsidian mid-fight, something I can imagine Sauron doing.

Also, so no-go for Fankil?
 
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We will discuss the Villains plotline next session. We did not talk about it on Friday. It's true that they might balk at introducing a new character for one specific role like this, but we haven't even floated the idea yet to see if it gets shot down.
 
Well, it's more that the 'on screen' aspect of this is more a Season 5 question. For now, we're literally just orchestrating the conversations-in-Angband-and-who-is-absent-when aspect. So, whether or not we'll have Fankil (for now) is a question of whether Sauron says something like 'Fankil reports to me that....' in the Season coda. Or not.


I tried to tidy this up a bit and started updating it, but it's hardly a complete synthesis of all of our discussions to this point. Still, it is something, I guess:

Season 4 Plot Arcs - Revised.jpg

A few things become clear when looking at this.

1 - Sauron is needed in Angband from FA 20-FA 60 (So, tentatively, Episodes 5-9). The rumor-mill storyline has his fingerprints all over it, and so we'll need to show him spying at the Feast, taking captives afterwards, etc. Any role he has in the East will have to be outside of that time frame (so likely after). Morgoth's presence is required for Episode 1, *possibly* for the Dagor Aglareb [if we want him to authorize it], and probably for the dragon R&D. But he can spend a good chunk of time mysteriously 'out' during this Season.

2 - The Ulmo's dream warning storyline is greatly condensed if we wait until after the Battle to have it happen. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but we should definitely consider moving it earlier. Currently, we have Finrod arriving in Menegroth to ask for Thingol's help in building his own protected cave fortress...right about the time Thingol learns about the Kinslaying. That is going to color that interaction strongly.

3 - There is no way the reveal of the Kinslaying can happen before the Dagor Aglareb. There is too much that needs to happen to lead up to it, and we had expressed a desire to have that Battle be the midpoint of the Season. So, either we push the battle back further and make the Kinslaying reveal the midpoint, or we deal with having the reveal happen after the Battle. Episodes 6 and 7 are currently rather sparsely populated, but Galadriel doesn't even arrive in Doriath until Episode 6, and she's supposed to tell some things to Melian and everything to Celeborn before the truth comes out to Thingol. We simply can't. If it's any consolation, the fallout of the Ban can show up in the contrast to the response to Glaurung vs the response to the Dagor Aglareb. I should note that, as the season is focused on reconciliation, the fallout from the Kinslaying reveal is even more important than the efforts to conceal it were.
 
MithLuin said:
Well, it's more that the 'on screen' aspect of this is more a Season 5 question. For now, we're literally just orchestrating the conversations-in-Angband-and-who-is-absent-when aspect. So, whether or not we'll have Fankil (for now) is a question of whether Sauron says something like 'Fankil reports to me that....' in the Season coda. Or not.


I tried to tidy this up a bit and started updating it, but it's hardly a complete synthesis of all of our discussions to this point. Still, it is something, I guess:

View attachment 1982

A few things become clear when looking at this.

1 - Sauron is needed in Angband from FA 20-FA 60 (So, tentatively, Episodes 5-9). The rumor-mill storyline has his fingerprints all over it, and so we'll need to show him spying at the Feast, taking captives afterwards, etc. Any role he has in the East will have to be outside of that time frame (so likely after). Morgoth's presence is required for Episode 1, *possibly* for the Dagor Aglareb [if we want him to authorize it], and probably for the dragon R&D. But he can spend a good chunk of time mysteriously 'out' during this Season.

2 - The Ulmo's dream warning storyline is greatly condensed if we wait until after the Battle to have it happen. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but we should definitely consider moving it earlier. Currently, we have Finrod arriving in Menegroth to ask for Thingol's help in building his own protected cave fortress...right about the time Thingol learns about the Kinslaying. That is going to color that interaction strongly.

3 - There is no way the reveal of the Kinslaying can happen before the Dagor Aglareb. There is too much that needs to happen to lead up to it, and we had expressed a desire to have that Battle be the midpoint of the Season. So, either we push the battle back further and make the Kinslaying reveal the midpoint, or we deal with having the reveal happen after the Battle. Episodes 6 and 7 are currently rather sparsely populated, but Galadriel doesn't even arrive in Doriath until Episode 6, and she's supposed to tell some things to Melian and everything to Celeborn before the truth comes out to Thingol. We simply can't. If it's any consolation, the fallout of the Ban can show up in the contrast to the response to Glaurung vs the response to the Dagor Aglareb. I should note that, as the season is focused on reconciliation, the fallout from the Kinslaying reveal is even more important than the efforts to conceal it were.
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I still think that the reveal of the Kinslaying be before the Dagor Aglareb, which we could make the midpoint. It’s very odd that Morgoth would attack the Noldor and Sindar if they’re a relatively united bloc instead of divided. Besides, it would make all the efforts of uniting the Noldor and the Sindar look like they were for nothing if they start fighting each other practically when the battle’s over instead of a great victory. I think that it should look like they won a great victory against Morgoth in spite of hostilities stemming from the reveal since they pull together to beat him and establish the Siege of Angband, it would look more meaningful instead of dissolving into quarrels over the Kinslaying.

Am I alone in wanting the reveal of the Kinslaying occur before the Dagor Aglareb?
 
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I think you could make it work either way. If the reveal is after, then it is dissolving an even stronger friendship, just as it's starting to look like it might just be a permanent thing.
 
Marie is there a way I can download that (as a spreadsheet), so I can edit it, please?

What I planned to do was remove the assumptions about what event goes in what episode (since we haven't at all determined the timings of any storylines relative to each other) and plot out the individual event sequences that we've discussed and decided upon in the podcast sessions.


Ange1, I'm not determined to put the reveal at any particular time, except whenever the timing works.
 
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amysrevenge said:
I think you could make it work either way. If the reveal is after, then it is dissolving an even stronger friendship, just as it's starting to look like it might just be a permanent thing.
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That’s exactly why I’m not in favor of it. How do you build comradeship and friendship back up after something like barring culture? Having the Ban after the Dagor Aglareb looks like a Yank the Dog’s Chain moment, in trope speak.
 
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