Session 4.11 - Season 4 Episode Outlines (Revisited)

So...Mereth Aderthad will be an ensemble episode with many, many people there and interacting for the only time in the series. We should take full advantage of that and think through who we want to have talk to whom about what.
Let me just say that I'm not the person to write believable party dialogue.

I agree Maedhros is prioritizing damage control, but I don't think it's just for cold military practicality. I think he has learned that the feud was bad and wrong from its beginning, sincerely wants to bury it as much as possible, and has genuine warm feelings towards at least Fingon and Finrod. I don't imagine he's just going through the motions to get something from them. I can imagine him trying to make sure Caranthir won't attend (and Caranthir wouldn't want to anyway). He's very dismissive of the Sindar but not necessarily looking to unnecessarily antagonize them.

Maglor and Daeron should both play music and be implicitly or explicitly compared. I can imagine them having a music competition, friendly at least on the surface but each trying to prove he's the Best.

[Curufin or Caranthir] and Maglor's wives can have any attitude towards other Elves that we want. I want Maglor's wife to be his Besan and to make independent gestures of reconciliation with the other Houses, but that doesn't automatically make her less dismissive towards Sindar than the other Feanorians are. Although, I wouldn't want all Feanorians to be monolithically racist.

If we used Marie's suggestion of Caranthir's wife continuing the feud until she makes up with Angrod after they're both captured, then perhaps she could show up here as a troublemaker. And as a scholar maybe she's curious about the Sindar while looking down on them. Or maybe she's dismissive towards the other Noldor, but open towards the Sindar.

Turgon hates Fëanoreans and probably only invited them to his party grudgingly because his father told him to. Okay, so Turgon is not a 10 year old throwing a birthday party, but I do think there is some grudging acceptance that anyone from East Beleriand is showing up at all. Though as host, he's not going to go around trying to start fights. Holding the party in Nevrast is only 'centrally located' if you pretend East Beleriand doesn't exist.
I agree. His welcome to the Feanorians will be stiff at best, if not cold. And we can show him being part of whatever argument happens, though probably without starting it.

Fingon, Finrod, Aredhel, and probably Fingolfin, want to bury the feud but I don't think they're naive to the remaining undercurrents. Fingolfin strongly wants to treat respectfully with the Sindar, and greatly respects Thingol, so he'll want this to be as positive as possible. Do we want him to be mindful of the fact that this Feast is being held on land only recently claimed by the Noldor? We haven't had Sindar living there yet.

Finrod will probably notice what Luthien is doing, and be impressed.

I agree Aredhel will be disappointed that Celegorm and Curufin aren't coming.

I think there is a lot of happiness at the Feast, councils taken in good faith, oaths of friendship, all that good stuff mentioned in the book. We need not make Angrod angry, and I'd rather not emphasize that all the time. Turgon is the person who I see as unrelentingly and unchangingly unfriendly/hateful towards the Feanorians, while his relatives react more to individual events going forward. Turgon is the one who would say out loud he hopes the Feanorians won't come.

Angrod's feelings shouldn't be as strong. And Caranthir's outburst isn't necessarily the only Feanorian reaction he got at the last council meeting. I imagine Maedhros tried to apologize for Caranthir's behavior, and as MithLuin suggested he will probably apologize to Finarfin's family for the Kinslaying, sometime this season. Maybe he already did, or maybe it'll be an episode long after the Feast. In any case, Angrod can distinguish between Caranthir and his more reasonable brothers. He isn't enthusiastic towards them, but was willing to forgive the Kinslaying and ship-burning (which shows that he is hugely generous). I don't think he would really hate Maedhros and Maglor for the behavior of Caranthir.

Idril is an interesting question. She's wise and perceptive and probably very open to the Sindar. She has few or no positive memories of interacting with friendly Feanorians -- the feud was in full swing when she was born. She lost her mother and suffered great trauma on the Ice because of them. She was also still a child or adolescent when the feud was healed and her grandfather became High King.

Beleg and Mablung and Lúthien - they are there for a party, and to meet the newcomers. Lúthien will be the ultimate peacemaker, and she's there to help everyone choose to get along. She might not like all the Noldor she meets, but she's certainly willing to give them a chance and treats them kindly. What are Beleg and Mablung up to? And does Daeron come along?
IMO the Doriath contigent should be official ambassadors. Daeron should come, and meet Maglor. On the other hand we can leave Beleg out. The episode will be crowded with so many characters as it is, and he didn't attend in the book.

Celeborn's sister should attend. I wanted some Green-elf to mention that the Entwives have crossed the mountains back into the East.


I see potential for conflict between the House of Finarfin and the House of Feanor going down the line with the Ban, since at least one of the Feanoreans will think that someone in the House of Finarfin ratted them out to Thingol and this is why there's a Ban.
when should Rog escape and when should the possible treachery of the prisoners of Angband, with some as spies for the enemy, be known? Because this will impact Rog being accepted back into Fingolfin/Fingon's circle. If it happens too late, he won't be accepted because the Elves will be wary of any Elves that escape from Angband.
I agree with both of these. Rog needs to escape before the majority of the traitors are revealed, before all escaped captives become suspect.


For the 29th, I would emphasize that Cirdan and the Sindar need to make contact with the Noldor in Episode 1, because we can't justify why they would plausibly wait 5-10 years before making contact, when they can clearly see the Noldorin camps. We could have Episode 1 end with Galadriel's emotional crisis, but I admit that doesn't seem like the best. I think that a 2-hour season premier is a more workable idea than trying to have episodes overlapping in time; but I'm open to suggestions how to make an overlap that isn't confusing.

I have been putting all my suggested events in green on the Gantt chart, even when I have a strong opinion about the timing. Was green supposed to be reserved only for timing we don't care about? I also haven't put as much detail into it as I put in the storyline outlines I sent you, Marie. I don't think all the details need to be discussed with the Hosts yet, and it seems easier to get approval for our ideas (or at least, reduce the likelihood of rejection) when we have a chance to explain them more fully.

Edit: I think Fingolfin should accept the Ban in the same episode that Thingol makes it. We don't have much time to show Gondolin and Nargothrond being built, or 200 years passing after the Dagor Aglareb, if we spend 3 episodes after the battle on 3 years of time.


On the few occasions when the possibility of Celeborn having a father has come up, Corey Olsen has been quick to point out that he does not in our project, both back in Season 2 when Celeborn was a teenager at Cuiviénen, and as recently as last session. So, yes, convincing him to include Celeborn's father at all seems to be an uphill battle at this point. It is possible he has conflated the name of Elmo (which he is viscerally opposed to using) with the role of Celeborn's father Galadhon, though, so if you do want to bring it up as a possibility, I strongly recommend making that distinction clear - that you DON'T mean Elmo, but rather Galadhon.
But Celeborn has a sister. It was already decided that any siblings (such as Elwe and Olwe) must have a mother who gave birth to them, and a father. Obviously, Celeborn had biological parents. And whenever they've been mentioned, I thought the name Galadhon was suggested.

I've now accumulated a large pile of roles/events for which we need a Sinda, for which Mablung, Beleg, and Daeron will be unavailable. We need somebody besides Thingol to: 1. voice distrust of the Noldor (without making Daeron always the bad guy), 2. be anti-reconciliation with the Noldor, 3. still be alive by the time Doriath falls, 4. die in the battles of the fall of Doriath and the 2nd and 3rd Kinslayings, and 5. get Elwing to safety. We'd benefit from a scene of Celeborn discussing his engagement with his relatives, and getting a variety of reactions. We will need at least one, probably a few new Sinda(r) at some point, and the Hosts have never given any reason why making that Sinda related to Celeborn would ruin the project. The Hosts don't have a good reason to so strongly condemn it out of hand. Celeborn could have lost somebody to the Hunter without losing everyone even distantly related to him. But Corey seems closed-minded to this idea, and unwilling to hear it out. I haven't even been able to explain it to the Execs yet and it's already rejected.
 
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When should the Kinslaying be revealed to Thingol?
  • Canonically, after the Dagor Aglareb
  • Requested: Prior to Dagor Aglareb
  • Many steps to unfold, with Galadriel not moving to Doriath until after the Mereth Aderthad
I don't know what you have planned for presenting this, but it probably deserves some level of background. It could be easy for Corey to dismiss it out of hand. I'm trying to track down some of our conversations about it, and WOW are we ever all over the place. You do NOT have an easy job here haha. I'm going to spend my lunch break searching for some material to represent our reasoning.
 
I'm going to spend my lunch break searching for some material to represent our reasoning.

Wait.

Aren't we doing the opposite of that? I've been looking over the beautiful Gantt chart.

Celeborn learns of the Kinslaying just before the battle, then we have the battle while everyone is still friends, then Thingol learns of the Kinslaying right after the battle.
 
Right.

So, here's the history.

The book has the Kinslaying reveal after the Battle.

The Hosts suggested having it before, and then using the Battle to unite the division and show some of the 'working together' (including the building of Nargothrond) happening after the reveal. [Ange1e4e5 really likes this idea.]

Then the Hosts detailed Galadriel's history, which includes moving to Doriath after the Mereth Aderthad, and telling Celeborn about the full Kinslaying prior to Thingol finding out about it. To incorporate that storyline, we bumped the Kinslaying reveal back further....to after the battle.

I've shifted Ulmo's dreams forward (to Episode 6), but while that might give Thingol time to introduce Finrod and Norn before the Reveal, it does mean that Finrod is likely in Menegroth to get help with Nargothrond when the Kinslaying comes to light, which might have a more dramatic impact on that storyline than we anticipated!

So, those three storylines (Galadriel/Celeborn, Finrod building Nargothrond, and the Dagor Aglareb) need to be reconciled with the Kinslaying reveal (currently slotted for episode 9). That's one item we need to discuss next Friday!
 
Right.

So, here's the history.

The book has the Kinslaying reveal after the Battle.

The Hosts suggested having it before, and then using the Battle to unite the division and show some of the 'working together' (including the building of Nargothrond) happening after the reveal. [Ange1e4e5 really likes this idea.]

Then the Hosts detailed Galadriel's history, which includes moving to Doriath after the Mereth Aderthad, and telling Celeborn about the full Kinslaying prior to Thingol finding out about it. To incorporate that storyline, we bumped the Kinslaying reveal back further....to after the battle.

I've shifted Ulmo's dreams forward (to Episode 6), but while that might give Thingol time to introduce Finrod and Norn before the Reveal, it does mean that Finrod is likely in Menegroth to get help with Nargothrond when the Kinslaying comes to light, which might have a more dramatic impact on that storyline than we anticipated!

So, those three storylines (Galadriel/Celeborn, Finrod building Nargothrond, and the Dagor Aglareb) need to be reconciled with the Kinslaying reveal (currently slotted for episode 9). That's one item we need to discuss next Friday!
Sounds about right.

On Finrod: I thought he was in Menegroth when the Kinslaying came to light, because Thingol confronts him first and Finrod says nothing in defense of himself or his kinsmen because he doesn't want to implicate the Feanoreans. Then Angrod angrily reveals the Kinslaying.
 
Oooooh, you meant requested by *them* - I thought you meant requested by *us*. Haha!

Yeah, I think the plan in the Gantt chart is a better plan.
 
Yes, both Finrod and Angrod are present in Menegroth for the Kinslaying reveal in the book. Nargothrond is already built, though, and Finrod is visiting from Nargothrond in that scene (as written).

We will have Finrod, Angrod, and Galadriel present in Menegroth, and while Nargothrond may be started, it is unlikely that it will be completely built at that point. We'll....have to work that out.

If Finrod still needs help from Thingol, and Thingol's angry because he just found out that (say) Fëanor killed his brother Olwë (he's not going to find out that detail, probably, but still...Kinslaying).....this could put Finrod in a really difficult situation!
 
Yes, both Finrod and Angrod are present in Menegroth for the Kinslaying reveal in the book. Nargothrond is already built, though, and Finrod is visiting from Nargothrond in that scene (as written).

We will have Finrod, Angrod, and Galadriel present in Menegroth, and while Nargothrond may be started, it is unlikely that it will be completely built at that point. We'll....have to work that out.

If Finrod still needs help from Thingol, and Thingol's angry because he just found out that (say) Fëanor killed his brother Olwë (he's not going to find out that detail, probably, but still...Kinslaying).....this could put Finrod in a really difficult situation!
Yeah, a Kinslaying reveal at that point and Nargothrond still under construction would be... troublesome. Thingol would be more reluctant to help, and indeed he provides as little help as possible from that point onward in the efforts against Morgoth.
 
As always, my priority in this endeavor, revolves around structure (he said, surprising no one).

First step here is to list all of the players who will have a full story arc in this season:

Fingolfin
Thingol
Maedhros
Galadriel
Celeborn
Turgon
Finrod
Luthien?
POV Dwarf?

Am I missing anyone?
 
I'm worried about Fingolfin. All of the ideas that I've read, really great ideas, dive right down to character for most of these players, but Fingolfin seems so... bird's eye to me still. I understand the list of actions he's going to take, but I haven't felt an increasing understanding of what he's like as a person, the same way I have for most of the others on that list.
 
I'm worried about Fingolfin. All of the ideas that I've read, really great ideas, dive right down to character for most of these players, but Fingolfin seems so... bird's eye to me still. I understand the list of actions he's going to take, but I haven't felt an increasing understanding of what he's like as a person, the same way I have for most of the others on that list.

I have the same concern for the dwarves. My goal here is to map out the arc of each character, to create a consistent mood in each plot thread. One of my concerns last season was the mood whiplash that occurs when you move from one plot thread at one point in its arc to another plot thread at a different point in its arc.
 
For Sauron, "independence' while Morgoth is away corrupting Men.

I've lost track of where we are on the Telchar/Eol relationship, and exactly when it happened/happens. Does "teacher" fit in there for her this season?
 
For Sauron, "independence' while Morgoth is away corrupting Men.

I've lost track of where we are on the Telchar/Eol relationship, and exactly when it happened/happens. Does "teacher" fit in there for her this season?

I think that it might be best do Eol flashbacks from Telchar's POV as a way to tie Eol in without him appearing to be out of place.
 
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