Session 4.12 - Episodes 1 and 2

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Next session will be on Friday April 5th

We will finish discussing Dragons and Nick's pacing chart, and then begin plotting out the episodes for Season 4!

Please continue to comment on the topic of Glaurung on the Session 4.11 thread, as that is where the conversation is already.

This thread is for any ideas as to what should happen in episodes 1 and 2 and how that should play out. We will submit those ideas on Wednesday, and see how things go from there.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Episode 1 will have First Contact between the Sindar and Noldor, are they from different parts, eg a delegation from Cirdan’s people by the coast and the Sindar in Doriath under Thingol? Is Celeborn in charge of Thingol’s delegation or something like that?
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
The Galadriel storyline and the Angrod storyline have to be rewritten from scratch because Corey rejected everything we had in the first half of each. We need to rearrange everything to move the battle and Kinslaying reveal and remove Morgoth from almost all the episodes. And we need to make sure all the rewritten storylines fit together... basically, all the work we did in the month leading up to yesterday morning, needs to be redone in one week.



That's not quite the same thing as having him rescued in the first scene, is it?
With respect, you aren't understanding what my concern is.

In Episode 1 we have Fingon rescuing Maedhros, the Sindar making contact with the Noldor, the Noldor learning to speak Sindarin, and Fingolfin's camp making contact with the Feanorians.

When we last ended Season 3, Cirdan and his folks were standing directly above the Noldorin camp, looking in its direction. It's inconceivable that they would see the camp of unfamiliar Elves who may be the Teleri with the boats or know what happened to them, who may be Olwe's people... and walk away and not come back for several years. Of course they will make contact immediately.

But we're told to open the story with Fingon already in the mountains, standing directly below Maedhros. We're told to skip past all of the interesting character moments actually showing him making his decision (which I don't want to skip) and skip Fingon actually learning that Maedhros is even captive. But even worse, we have to show Fingon setting out to rescue Maedhros before Cirdan takes even one step down from the hills to speak to the Noldor.

So we have 2 options:
  1. Season 4 opens about 5 minutes after Season 3. In 5 minutes, Fingon has learned that Feanor is dead and Maedhros is captive (without talking to the Feanorians!), taken a bunny-sled to Thangorodrim, and climbed the whole mountain. Maedhros will only be captive for about 1 day and barely changed. In the next 5 minutes, Cirdan and Celeborn walk down to the Noldorin camp.
  2. Season 4 opens months or years after Season 3. That's enough time for Fingon to talk to the Feanorians, and walk to Angband like a normal person. But Cirdan and Celeborn have been standing in the hills, staring mindlessly at what they think is Olwe's Telerin camp, for all these months or years.
Neither of these options makes sense. The only other thing we can do is "rebel" and ignore what Corey told us we have to write.


We're also now told to show that Galadriel disappears into Doriath and doesn't emerge for years, and that Angrod comes looking for when they become concerned that she's missing, and that neither of them bring back word from Thingol until many years later. We're told to show Maedhros recovering instantly, the day after he's rescued. We're told to show Galadriel trusting Celeborn with her deepest, darkest secret, the very first day she meets him.

None of this makes any sense to me. I don't even know how to start writing, after throwing out most of what we planned for Episodes 1-3.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
In a carryover from the 4.11 thread (I don’t know how to transfer posts between threads), we could have a scene in episode 1 with Morgoth saying he’s going to be out on business in the east, tells Sauron and Gothmog to not screw up, and leaves.

Episode 2: Gothmog and Boldog are in drill sergeant mode trying to get Orcs to not shrink from sunlight.

Another possible project for seasons 4 or 5: how does Morgoth create rivers of fire that are the precipitous to the Dagor Bragollach?
 
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Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
But we're told to open the story with Fingon already in the mountains, standing directly below Maedhros. We're told to skip past all of the interesting character moments actually showing him making his decision (which I don't want to skip) and skip Fingon actually learning that Maedhros is even captive. But even worse, we have to show Fingon setting out to rescue Maedhros before Cirdan takes even one step down from the hills to speak to the Noldor.
Were you listening to the conversation that took place when I asked him if Fingon would hear about Maedhros' capture off-screen? Because he seemed more than willing to be moved off of this point.


We also were not told to have Maedhros recover instantly. Prof. Olsen was pretty clear about this. As was his statements about being ok with Galadriel meeting Celeborn before the Mereth Aderthad, and thus not telling him her deepest darkest secret the first time she meets him.

We're not going to be able to work on a collaborative project if we react to we think people are saying without actually listen to the entire statement. Also, when we make overstated arguments, we invite people to demonstrate how overstated they are instead of the point we are trying to make.

You didn't say that your concern was about the flow of time over the entire episode, you said that Maedhros is rescued in the very first scene. This was pretty clearly untrue, and so I addressed that point. That isn't me not understanding your concern, that is you communicating the wrong concern, and in fact, one that was easily falsifiable.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Well i hope that Fingolfin entering Angband resueing Maedhros will get a long and cool action sequence...

I wanna see how he manages to actually enter angband, if he fights or sneaks his way in maybe disguising or shapeshifting himself into a fallen elf or orc like Finrod and his company did...
i want to see him going fully assassins creed!
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Well i hope that Fingolfin entering Angband resueing Maedhros will get a long and cool actionnsequence...

I wanna see how he manages to actully enter angband, if he fights or sneaks his way in maybe disguising or shapeshifting himself into a fallen elf or orc like Finrod and his company did...
i want to see him going assassins creed!
You mean Fingon, right?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Well i hope that Fingolfin entering Angband resueing Maedhros will get a long and cool action sequence...

I wanna see how he manages to actually enter angband, if he fights or sneaks his way in maybe disguising or shapeshifting himself into a fallen elf or orc like Finrod and his company did...
i want to see him going fully assassins creed!
You could be referring to extra-Silmarillion material, but I got the distinct impression that he couldn't find a way in.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
You could be referring to extra-Silmarillion material, but I got the distinct impression that he couldn't find a way in.
Which is why Beren and Luthien going into Angband and coming out alive to tell the tale without getting captured is even more awesome.

Thoughts on my suggestions?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I need a better idea of what the hosts want for the season before I do too much on E1 and E2. Right now my focus is on creating a visual representation of the season arcs so that the hosts can see what is happening.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Well, lets think about the issue... fingon is looking for Maedros, but does he actually know where he is. Je has to find him... get information... i see a thrilling story behind all this!
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I’m not sure how much time that has to have passed since the last episode of the previous season. I can grudgingly accept putting Fingon (no autocorrect, not Fingolfin!) in the mountains but he certainly can’t have found Maedhros already.
The stages as I see them:

1. Noldor: ‘where’s Fingon?’ Cut to Fingon (no autocorrect, no!) who is in the mountains.
2. Perhaps a scene with the Noldor meeting Sindar or something. Cut to Fingon (sigh) who now is about to give up. He sits down. He starts to sing. Pan to above cliff, where we now see Maedhros, who hears the song from far below. He answers. Cut to Fingon reacting. They sing together.
3. Something Noldor camp something. Cut to Fingon (omg) who has climbed to where Maedhros is hanging. He tries to release Maedhros but fails.
4. Maybe continued from 3. or after a camp scene. Best though would probably be a scene with Angband people discovering something is happening (they should see Thorondor later). The cutting and Thorondor etc.
5. Fingon (not ‘Ding on’!) and Maedhros back at camp.

None of these stages can be skipped out imho but few of them take a lot of time, on the other hand. Or as much time as we like.
(Sorry about the autocorrect comments)
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Haha, I share your frustration with autocorrect! And since working on this project, it 'helpfully' corrects Virginia to Valinor and my friend Mel's name to Melkor :p

I would think that Fingon's story in Episode 1 would look like:
  1. Find out about Feanor's death and Maedhros 's capture.
  2. Be frustrated by the impasse between the two camps of Noldor.
  3. Take advantage of Morgoth's cloud cover induced darkness to journey to Thangorodrim.
  4. Despair of finding any way in, play his harp, find Maedhros, pray for help, Thorondor (no, not Toronto!) shows up, cuts off Maedhros' hand, flies back to Mithrim.
I recognize that the last point is rather involved, but I imagine the end of the episode will focus entirely on him. The earlier points are the setup to get there.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Ok I like that outline sketch and would accept it without hesitation. My sketch was an attempt to meet the request to put Fingon (yes, autocorrect, Fingon...) in the Thangorodrim already at the start of the episode. Given freedom to choose, however, I’d go for something along the lines you’re suggesting.

The episode has to start under the influence of the Sun, so that Morgoth’s clouds have a significant effect. Fingon (...) should take off as soon as he notices that. This is by itself reason enough to rebel against the idea to put him in the mountains at the start.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Were you listening to the conversation that took place when I asked him if Fingon would hear about Maedhros' capture off-screen? Because he seemed more than willing to be moved off of this point.
I never heard him say this, sorry. It is not at all easy for me to hear them clearly on the webcast, and I have to take bathroom breaks sometimes during the session. I also have to eat and get ready for work while listening and responding to the session, which is very difficult and requires dividing my attention. The podcast starts when I'm barely awake and I have to get up early just to participate. That does not mean that I was refusing to listen. Please do not accuse me.

We also were not told to have Maedhros recover instantly.
We were told he must be recovered already at the beginning of the second episode. If as you say the rescue can finish at the end of the episode (which it needs to), then after being rescued he is recovered in the very next scene, which is instantly in screen time. Pretending that time passed "off screen" (how?) will not do anything to remove the appearance that he recovered instantly. As far as I know we're not allowed to show even one scene of him in bed or with a healer or Besan.

As was his statements about being ok with Galadriel meeting Celeborn before the Mereth Aderthad, and thus not telling him her deepest darkest secret the first time she meets him.
I didn't hear this statement, either. Sorry.

You didn't say that your concern was about the flow of time over the entire episode, you said that Maedhros is rescued in the very first scene. This was pretty clearly untrue, and so I addressed that point. That isn't me not understanding your concern, that is you communicating the wrong concern, and in fact, one that was easily falsifiable.
Nick, please be aware that like you I am a very busy person and cannot devote my entire life to this project. I have a job, I have finances to take care of, I have meals to cook, I have clothes to mend, I have medical appointments for multiple medical problems, and I have several other time committments -- several of which I have neglected for a month in order to attempt to meet the deadlines of this project. I do not usually have time, in the tiny space of time between the podcast and going to work, to write a many-paragraph description of the extremely detailed things I am thinking. Sometimes I have to attempt to summarize, which is extremely difficult. At all times I try to avoid un-readable walls of text. Even when I do have time I always find it very hard to convey what I'm thinking. I do the best I can and I assure you that I am very frustrated as well that I can't convey my thoughts clearly enough to be understood. I certainly am not being hard to understand on purpose because I enjoy being constantly misunderstood. I assure you that being misunderstood is the very last thing I want! I am sorry if my summaries aren't detailed enough, but writing out my thoughts in full often takes me 1-2 hours per post. I very seldom have that much time.

Please do not accuse me of bad faith just because I am rushed and unable to convey my thoughts as clearly as I want. I am doing my best but you can't expect perfection. I don't appreciate being accused like this. It certainly does not help my already pressed time to have to spend 45 mins that I don't have just to defend myself. The situation here is already frustrating and difficult enough for me without having to defend myself every single time I miscommunicate, or mis-hear one thing that the Hosts say.

As it is I probably can't participate much for the foreseeable future. In addition to my job, neglected finances, cooking, mending, and cleaning, I also have to do taxes, apply for several housing options, and go to the doctor.

Edit: I'd like to add that I'm not angry, just frustrated and stressed out and overwhelmed.


In addition I will add that when Corey said we have to open the episode with Fingon already in the mountains, it was never clear to me if he also required the entire rescue sequence to be at the beginning, or to put the rest at the end.

Just because I don't have an easy time understanding Corey, does NOT mean that I'm deliberately lying about what he said.
 
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Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Haha, I share your frustration with autocorrect! And since working on this project, it 'helpfully' corrects Virginia to Valinor and my friend Mel's name to Melkor :p

I would think that Fingon's story in Episode 1 would look like:
  1. Find out about Feanor's death and Maedhros 's capture.
  2. Be frustrated by the impasse between the two camps of Noldor.
  3. Take advantage of Morgoth's cloud cover induced darkness to journey to Thangorodrim.
  4. Despair of finding any way in, play his harp, find Maedhros, pray for help, Thorondor (no, not Toronto!) shows up, cuts off Maedhros' hand, flies back to Mithrim.
I recognize that the last point is rather involved, but I imagine the end of the episode will focus entirely on him. The earlier points are the setup to get there.
This would be much better and my preference is that we show the Hosts an episode-outline that makese more sense and comes closer to our earlier outliens, and demonstrate why it works better than what they want us to write.

Fingon's character moments of finding out Maedhros was captured, thinking about the feud and reconciliation, and making up his mind should not be skipped, in addition to the timing problems it creates for showing the Sindar and Noldor meeting.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Well, we could throw in a line that it’s been “[x] amounts of weeks/months since Maedhros was rescued.”

We could have a flashback scene for Fingon where Fingolfin’s camp meets up with the Feanoreans and he goes “Where’s Maedhros?” And sets out to find him since they’re friends and Maedhros is the main Elf that the Feanoreans will listen to.
 
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