Session 4.12 - Episodes 1 and 2

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I’m not sure the elves measure time at this point. I mean, some of them could, and later, someone could say, ‘the Sun has now crossed the sky five hundred times’ and people will be impressed or uninterested or whatever. But at this moment, the passage of time isn’t that interesting. The Sun is up. The Noldor have arrived. The enemy has been dealt a serious blow. Maedhros is missing. Those facts are interesting, but, since no one is sick or dying of age, or food is running out, or furniture needs replacing, the amount of time that has passed or is about to pass is of no consequence. So we really have no reason to indicate how much time has passed at this point, I think.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Re passage of time: I agree the Elves won't immediately invent new names for periods of time, but they already have names for "day", "week", and "year" which they can adapt. Seasons will happen, with winter a very noticeable season so near to Angband.

To clarify, that storyline has been condensed, not entirely rewritten. And while it is true that the scenes we imagined with Angrod may not all be shown, they do still happen. All that has changed is that we do not have to show Thingol questioning Angrod, which is for the best, most likely. It's true that we were planning on showing Celeborn and Galadriel having multiple conversations spread out over several episodes, and now both of those significant conversations will happen in the Mereth Aderthad episode. They won't be in the same scene, though, so we don't lose them, just change the timing.

Part of the planning process involves changing things. But simply moving some scenes around does not mean that everything is rewritten.

Changes were made, but we were not asked to do more work to prepare for next time. Except for Nick, who was asked to change his chart a bit.
I am just so confused by the changes made. I don't know what parts of what we planned can be used at all, but this was the outline I had been trying to use (order of things within episodes is a little bit vague).

Episode 1
Situation: The two Noldorin camps are divided, with great tension and peril of war. All of Angband is dismayed and flat-footed by the Sun.
1. Círdan and other Falathrim come down to meet Fingolfin's folk.
2. Celeborn sees Galadriel in Mithrim, and recognizes that she is a force to be reckoned with, but they don't really meet.
3. There is a language barrier: Sindarin and Quenya are two separate languages.
4. Cirdan sends Annael to Doriath as a messenger. Thingol’s reaction isn’t shown.
5. Fingolfin's folk meet the Fëanorians. Fingolfin learns Fëanor is dead. Fingon learns Maedhros is missing.
6. Turgon sees Finrod and Cirdan having a near-fluent conversation. Finrod explains that he learned Sindarin with telepathy, and that his telepathy is much more powerful than other peoples' - more than he used to think when he lived in Valinor. Finrod acts as translator while the other Noldor catch up.
7. Círdan asks questions. Finrod doesn't mention the Kinslaying and is too traumatized to mention the Helkaraxe. They came to fight Morgoth. The Sindar assume everyone was ferried in the ships before Morgoth burned them, or transported by Valar.
8. Fingon is frustrated by the division of the Noldor. He agonizes about the situation -- he wants to heal the feud, and knows they must or Morgoth will destroy them, but forgiving the Feanorians isn't easy or instant.
9. Celeborn and Galadriel have a first conversation. There’s a mutual respect and interest.
10. Idril (or someone) is concerned about Galadriel's ambition
11. Morgoth makes a cloud of smoke to hide Angband from the Sun. Seeing his opportunity, Fingon makes up his mind to rescue Maedhros.
12. Thorondor brings Fingon and Maedhros back to Mithrim.

Episode 2
1. Turgon reminds Fingon that Maedhros abandoned him to the Grinding Ice.
2. The Noldor begin trying to reunite, but do not reconcile. At least one scene of Maedhros being healed or beginning to recuperate.
3. Amros tells Fingolfin's faction what happened at Losgar, and why Amrod is gone.
4. Maglor's Besan/wife gives lembas to Maedhros, and lembas and seed-corn to Fingolfin's Besan.
5. Galadriel volunteers to go to Doriath as ambassador.
6. Finarfinian family discussion about damage control re:Kinslaying, and moral conflict about hiding it from the Sindar.
7. Fingolfin declares certain topics off-limits because the Sindar must not learn of the Kinslaying.
8. Galadriel goes to Doriath as an ambassador, but has an emotional crisis after meeting Melian's eyes. She reveals nothing, and Melian doesn't read her mind, just her emotions.
9. Galadriel gives up her political ambitions and immediately returns to Doriath.
10. Maedhros is recovered just enough to appear in public, but not much more. He cedes his claim to the crown. Fingolfin is declared High King.

Episode 2 or 3
?. The villains are alarmed by Thorondor’s involvement in Maedhros’ rescue. Morgoth suspects that Men have awakened.
11. Finrod sends Angrod to Doriath as an ambassador, but cautions him to speak as little of the Fëanoreans as possible.
12. Angrod tells Thingol a very whitewashed version of the Darkening of Valinor. He doesn't mention the Silmarils, rebellion, Kinslaying, or succession crisis. Finwë and/or Olwë's deaths may come out.
13. Thingol is less than satisfied with this tale. He allows the Noldor to settle the north, but declares Doriath off-limits.

Episode 3
1. Angrod returns from Doriath.
2. The Noldor hold council, where Angrod conveys Thingol's decree about where they can settle. Fëanorians insult Angrod and Thingol.
3. Fingolfin is crowned in a pompous ceremony.
4. The three houses decide where they will settle.
5. Galadriel lives with Finrod (and will go with him to Tol Sirion). She is depressed and disengaged from the doings of the other Noldor. Finrod is worried about his sister.
?. Morgoth sets Sauron in charge of Angband and leaves for Hildorien.

Episode 4
1. The Noldor settle realms in Beleriand, including Minas Tirith.
2. The Fëanorians move east. Amras initially lives in Himring, judging/annoying his brothers.
3. Eol is very unhappy with his new neighbors. "Flashbacks" to how he came to and purchased Nan Elmoth.
4. Many Falathrim move north to Nevrast and Mithrim (and Dorthonion?). Annael and many others go to Mithrim. Turgon is especially welcoming.
5. Time-skip. Fingolfin starts planning Mereth Aderthad.


There were other events in this thread (https://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?threads/session-4-04-4-05-overarching-storylines.3061/page-13) that I don't have the time / mental energy to work into the above outline right now.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Sorry for off topic, but where does Tolkien write that the words for week, day and year were invented immediately and spread throughout elvendom? I mean, I agree that some elves would start paying attention to the rhythm of the Sun and the Moon. Well, maybe all of them would. But my guess is that establishing a consensus on what to call the units of time should take a while. Anyway, if JRR has written about this, I’d be happy to read it. I’m in no way being anything but curious about this, btw.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Ah, to clarify the Sindar couldn't have had words like that before the Sunrise, but in Valinor there were (very long) hours, days, 6-day? weeks, and years. I don't know of any Valinorean unit in-between week and year, although it would be plausible if one existed. The solar year was at some unknown point given a new word: coranar (sun-round).

I can't recall where this was specified, unfortunately... scattered about in several texts, I think? There was some calendar text, and there's Of the Reckoning of Time in the Annals of Aman, I think.

So, I was thinking that at first the Noldor would adapt Valinorean words for the new solar situation. You're right most Elves wouldn't necessarily count days at first, but they would notice the seasons, and the phases of the Moon (whenever and however those start happening).


I'm not saying we necessarily need to write "X [unit] later" on the bottom of the screen. On the other hand... it can be used at some point. It isn't that bad a method if not overused. Showing seasons change might also be useable. But to a large extent I imagine that showing time pass will require showing a couple intermediate stages of a long-term process.
 
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Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Yes that’s reasonable. So the Noldor would pretty quickly establish that the rhythm of the Sun and the Moon would be seen as a new version of the old cycle of light of the Trees waxing and waning. But the word for ‘month’ would have to be added, I guess (?). They’d be happy to start measuring time since it would remind them of the Trees.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I never heard him say this, sorry. It is not at all easy for me to hear them clearly on the webcast, and I have to take bathroom breaks sometimes during the session. I also have to eat and get ready for work while listening and responding to the session, which is very difficult and requires dividing my attention. The podcast starts when I'm barely awake and I have to get up early just to participate. That does not mean that I was refusing to listen. Please do not accuse me.
This is not an accusation, but a question. You don't owe anyone an explanation of why you were not able to listen to entire conversations with full attention. What might be advisable is you take this point into account when you write your reactions to the things about which you were unable to hear the full conversation.

We were told he must be recovered already at the beginning of the second episode. If as you say the rescue can finish at the end of the episode (which it needs to), then after being rescued he is recovered in the very next scene, which is instantly in screen time. Pretending that time passed "off screen" (how?) will not do anything to remove the appearance that he recovered instantly. As far as I know we're not allowed to show even one scene of him in bed or with a healer or Besan.
There are a number of ways to illustrate how time has passed offscreen; it happens all the time. The statements made by the hosts in no way disallow recovery time.

Nick, please be aware that like you I am a very busy person and cannot devote my entire life to this project. I have a job, I have finances to take care of, I have meals to cook, I have clothes to mend, I have medical appointments for multiple medical problems, and I have several other time committments -- several of which I have neglected for a month in order to attempt to meet the deadlines of this project. I do not usually have time, in the tiny space of time between the podcast and going to work, to write a many-paragraph description of the extremely detailed things I am thinking. Sometimes I have to attempt to summarize, which is extremely difficult. At all times I try to avoid un-readable walls of text. Even when I do have time I always find it very hard to convey what I'm thinking. I do the best I can and I assure you that I am very frustrated as well that I can't convey my thoughts clearly enough to be understood. I certainly am not being hard to understand on purpose because I enjoy being constantly misunderstood. I assure you that being misunderstood is the very last thing I want! I am sorry if my summaries aren't detailed enough, but writing out my thoughts in full often takes me 1-2 hours per post. I very seldom have that much time.
I'm not going to compare who has more demands on their time with you. If you have other commitments, everyone understands that. But what you actually said wasn't a simplification of the situation. It wasn't a lack of detail. What you said was, "I am very very upset that we are forced to have Maedhros rescued in the very first scene of Episode 1." That is an emphatic statement of something that isn't true at all. Especially if, as you say, you were unable to listen to the entire conversation. Would it not be better to come back to something you were upset by after you had actually had the time to listen to the conversation, especially if, as you state later it was never clear to you what was said or intended? Why would you make such an emphatic statement if you were not, in fact, certain what was said at all?

As it is I probably can't participate much for the foreseeable future. In addition to my job, neglected finances, cooking, mending, and cleaning, I also have to do taxes, apply for several housing options, and go to the doctor.
This is all very understandable, and I hope that you can return when you have more time available to you. Everyone interacts with this project at the level they can/wish to do so. I certainly wouldn't put off real life commitments in order to participate here. It just isn't worth it. Especially if you feel like the direction of the project is so diametrically opposed to what you are hoping for.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
This is my tentative take on e1. I used some of Faelivrin’s notes, but shuffled things around a bit. I shortened it because, although it needs elaborating, a lot can wait until scriptwriting.

1. Fingolfin's folk meet the Fëanorians. Fingolfin learns Fëanor is dead. Fingon learns Maedhros is missing. Fingon is frustrated by the division of the Noldor.
2. Círdan and some Falathrim come down to meet Fingolfin's folk. Celeborn sees Galadriel but they don't really meet.
3. Círdan asks questions. Finrod doesn't mention the Kinslaying or the Helcaraxë. They came to fight Morgoth.
4. Morgoth makes a cloud of smoke to hide Angband from the Sun. Seeing his opportunity, Fingon makes up his mind to rescue Maedhros.
5. Fingolfin with his inner circle, discusses the problems they have with the Fëanoreans and how to deal with the elves of Middle-earth. But where is Fingon.
6. Fingon in Thangorodrim. The task seems impossible.
7. Angband: Morgoth is happy with the cloud. He recieves news about the awakening of the Men. He leaves for the East.
8. Cirdan sends Annael to Doriath as a messenger. Celeborn and Galadriel have a first conversation.
9. Fingon gives up. He sits down and starts to sing. Maedhros is close by above him and answers. He climbs up.
10. Fëanoreans consider their options. Things look pretty bad, since they are outnumbered by the rest of the Noldor, whom they have betrayed. They expect some kind of attack.
11. Fingon tries to free Maedhros. The cutting, the arrival of Thorondor. Someone from Angband is a witness to the escape.
12.Thorondor brings Fingon and Maedhros back to Mithrim.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
This is my tentative take on e1. I used some of Faelivrin’s notes, but shuffled things around a bit. I shortened it because, although it needs elaborating, a lot can wait until scriptwriting.

1. Fingolfin's folk meet the Fëanorians. Fingolfin learns Fëanor is dead. Fingon learns Maedhros is missing. Fingon is frustrated by the division of the Noldor.
2. Círdan and some Falathrim come down to meet Fingolfin's folk. Celeborn sees Galadriel but they don't really meet.
3. Círdan asks questions. Finrod doesn't mention the Kinslaying or the Helcaraxë. They came to fight Morgoth.
4. Morgoth makes a cloud of smoke to hide Angband from the Sun. Seeing his opportunity, Fingon makes up his mind to rescue Maedhros.
5. Fingolfin with his inner circle, discusses the problems they have with the Fëanoreans and how to deal with the elves of Middle-earth. But where is Fingon.
6. Fingon in Thangorodrim. The task seems impossible.
7. Angband: Morgoth is happy with the cloud. He recieves news about the awakening of the Men. He leaves for the East.
8. Cirdan sends Annael to Doriath as a messenger. Celeborn and Galadriel have a first conversation.
9. Fingon gives up. He sits down and starts to sing. Maedhros is close by above him and answers. He climbs up.
10. Fëanoreans consider their options. Things look pretty bad, since they are outnumbered by the rest of the Noldor, whom they have betrayed. They expect some kind of attack.
11. Fingon tries to free Maedhros. The cutting, the arrival of Thorondor. Someone from Angband is a witness to the escape.
12.Thorondor brings Fingon and Maedhros back to Mithrim.

So, one thing I'd caution against, utilizing the tools we have come to learn thus far, is having Angband drop out of the story in the middle. Sure, Fingon and Maedhros are there, and someone sees their escape, but that isn't really the same story.

By giving the audience scenes in the beginning and middle of the episode, we are inviting them to see some sort of resolution to something in the end of the episode, which will leave the feeling of something being missing.

It would even be OK to have only have one scene at the beginning and end of the episode or even a single scene in the middle which has a self-contained arc of it's own.

I'm not saying this because I expect anyone to be thinking through these points right now, I just wanted to give everyone a heads-up that we will have to deal with it eventually.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
So, one thing I'd caution against, utilizing the tools we have come to learn thus far, is having Angband drop out of the story in the middle. Sure, Fingon and Maedhros are there, and someone sees their escape, but that isn't really the same story.

By giving the audience scenes in the beginning and middle of the episode, we are inviting them to see some sort of resolution to something in the end of the episode, which will leave the feeling of something being missing.

It would even be OK to have only have one scene at the beginning and end of the episode or even a single scene in the middle which has a self-contained arc of it's own.

I'm not saying this because I expect anyone to be thinking through these points right now, I just wanted to give everyone a heads-up that we will have to deal with it eventually.
Yes I can see a couple of Angband scenes towards the end, showing how things work when M is gone.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
So, a second version:

1. Fingolfin's folk meet the Fëanoreans. Fingolfin learns that Fëanor is dead, and that Maedhros is missing. Fingon is frustrated by the division of the Noldor.
2. Círdan and some Falathrim come down to meet Fingolfin's folk. Celeborn sees Galadriel but they don't really meet.
3. Círdan asks questions. Fingolfin doesn't mention the Kinslaying or the Helcaraxë. The Noldor came to fight Morgoth.
4. Morgoth makes a cloud of smoke to hide Angband from the Sun. Seeing his opportunity, Fingon makes up his mind to rescue Maedhros.
5. Fingolfin is with his inner circle, discusses the problems they have with the Fëanoreans and how to deal with the elves of Middle-earth. But where is Fingon?
6. Fingon in Thangorodrim. The task seems impossible.
7. Angband: Morgoth is happy with the cloud. He recieves news about the awakening of the Men. He leaves for the East.
8. Cirdan sends Annael to Doriath as a messenger. Celeborn and Galadriel have a first conversation.
9. Fingon gives up. He sits down and starts to sing. Maedhros is close by above him and answers. He climbs up.
10. Angband: Gothmog takes control over the Angband administration. He orders Boldog to raise a new army. Sauron’s task is ‘outer operations’.
11. Fëanoreans consider their options. Things look pretty bad, since they are outnumbered by the rest of the Noldor, whom they have betrayed. They expect some kind of attack.
12. Fingon tries to free Maedhros. The cutting, the arrival of Thorondor.
13. Someone from Angband is a witness to the escape.
14.Thorondor brings Fingon and Maedhros back to Mithrim.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
So...remind me, how does Fingon know that Maedhros is in the mountains and not in caves far underground?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
So...remind me, how does Fingon know that Maedhros is in the mountains and not in caves far underground?
He sings and plays his harp and Maedhros responds from his shackle on Thangorodrim. Kinda hard to do that when you're stuck underground, as opposed to above ground where there's more echo amongst the Iron Mountains.
 
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Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
He sings and plays his harp and Maedhros responds from his shackle on Thangorodrim. Kinda hard to do that when you're stuck underground, as opposed to above ground where there's more echo amongst the Iron Mountains.
I think you are missing my point. Why does Fingon search above ground? A lot seems to indicate that the enemy is underground, and would probably also keep prisoners in caves.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Look, one elf sneaking around the huge Thangorodrim range isn’t worth considering a risk of any kind. Even if he by some weird chance would happen to stumble upon the one Morgoth nailed to the cliff, he would have to cut off that one’s arm to free him. And then what? His little redhead chum would die soon enough, and none of them would come back to their fine friends, all alone as they are.
 
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