Session 4-18: Episodes 7 & 8

Haakon

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Staff member
I’d like to focus a bit on how Círdan delivers the message. He arrives, knowing he’s got extremely bad news. He has a need to unload his burden, and he knows his lord and old friend will want to know. At the same time, he has to consider the best way of telling Thingol. Is he going to be the prosecutor, the cautious diplomat, or the spokesman of the victims? He has to have a plan. And then, when he arrives, Galadriel is there, Angrod is there, Finrod is there. People he probably has come to like.
I think he should present his findings logically, step by step, carefully and as calmly as he can, so that there is no doubt that his conclusions are correct, and let the reactions and emotions come from those who listen. Perhaps he’s not capable of totally holding back tears.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Oh, it was probably meant to be Nargothrond, and didn't get moved to the right episode. Oops. Let me update that..... [the tower of Minas Tirith at Tol Sirion is already built in Episode 4]

Finrod should be in Doriath (for some unspecified reason - visiting Galadriel?) when Círdan arrives with the message that the Fëanoreans burnt the ships and the Noldor are guilty of crimes against the Teleri.

But if we give Finrod some official business with Thingol at this time, that could make the way the kinslaying reveal plays out more interesting. So, what could they be discussing? Finrod could be promising to keep safe the pass with his tower at Tol Sirion. This would be meant as a reassurance for the elves living, say, in the Forest of Brethil, which is outside the Girdle of Melian. Perhaps Beleg and Mablung are in favor of 'patrolling' well outside Doriath's borders to ensure the safety of the Sindar....
In the book, the sons of Finarfin are just visiting Doriath to visit Galadriel and this coincidentally happens to be the time Cirdan's messengers bring news of the kinslaying to Thingol. However, if we plan to have Cirdan himself deliver the news, it might be interesting for his visit to be anticipated and related to Finrod and Angrod's visit. Perhaps all three could be visiting Thingol as part of a war conference to coordinate Noldor/Sindar/Falathrim efforts against Morgoth.

Finrod and Angrod could arrive early and visit Galadriel before the conference. They could tell Thingol and the others at the conference (maybe Beleg, Mablung, Celeborn, Galadriel, and Melian) about the progress the Noldor have made with their fortifications in the North, focusing on how the Noldor are protecting the Elves in Doriath and southern Beleriand. Then, they could request that Thingol's people return the favor, and Beleg and Mablung could express their support of this. Maybe Finrod or Angrod could read from letters from Fingolfin and Maedhros requesting aid from the Sindar in the form of supplies and/or troops.

Sometime in the middle of this, Cirdan could arrive, go immediately to Thingol, and tell him that he needs to speak to him in private. Thingol and Cirdan could step into another room, where Cirdan would tell him about the kinslaying. Then, Thingol could storm back into the conference room and confront the Noldor.

After Thingol issues the ban on Quenya and calms down, the war conference could pick up where it left off, but Thingol would be much less willing than he previously appeared to support the Noldor. His response to the requests for aid could then be a way to show his relationship with the different houses. For example, maybe he could agree to send supplies and troops to Finarfin's sons, just supplies to Fingolfin, and nothing to the Feanorians.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
I’d like to focus a bit on how Círdan delivers the message. He arrives, knowing he’s got extremely bad news. He has a need to unload his burden, and he knows his lord and old friend will want to know. At the same time, he has to consider the best way of telling Thingol. Is he going to be the prosecutor, the cautious diplomat, or the spokesman of the victims? He has to have a plan. And then, when he arrives, Galadriel is there, Angrod is there, Finrod is there. People he probably has come to like.
I think he should present his findings logically, step by step, carefully and as calmly as he can, so that there is no doubt that his conclusions are correct, and let the reactions and emotions come from those who listen. Perhaps he’s not capable of totally holding back tears.
I really like the idea of Cirdan calmly reporting the facts. I think tears should appear in Thingol's eyes when Cirdan tells him about the death of Olwe. Maybe the camera could cut from Cirdan to Thingol to show this, and, when it cuts back to Cirdan, tears would be in his eyes too. However, I think Cirdan would still go on to deliver the full message without breaking down then bow his head or something when he's finished.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I agree that Círdan will err on the side of caution. He knows something, and suspects more, but does not want to rashly over-reach with his accusations. So, he would speak with Thingol one-on-one, and lay out what he knows. He'd start with the facts he's sure of.

1) The ships of the Teleri were burned at Losgar.
2) Fëanor, Finwë's son and leader of the Noldor, burned them.
3) No Teleri arrived in Middle-earth.
4) The Noldor have been hiding something all along.

Therefore...treachery on the part of the Noldor against the Teleri is an unavoidable conclusion. It is not just grief that is fueling the Noldor hesitance to talk about what happened in Valinor and on the way to Beleriand...it is guilt. Círdan doesn't know what they did, but he knows they are guilty and Thingol had to know immediately. The Noldor have the blood of their kin on their hands, somehow.


This could be a step back from the conclusions he came to himself in his conversation with Thuringwethil. That would show that Círdan is able to rein himself in and that he doesn't want to influence Thingol's decision with conjecture or false accusations. There's something very serious here, and he wants to make sure Thingol gets all the facts. IF Thingol and Círdan already knew that Olwë was dead, they could very easily conclude that Morgoth isn't the one to blame here. But Círdan is probably going to stop one step short of leveling accusations.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Well, since the Siege has not yet been established, there’s more opportunity for Angband raiding parties to get to the rest of Beleriand. Maybe we show one raiding party after the Dagor Aglareb that doesn’t go through?
True enough! So far the Noldor
have to settle their stuff before they can come up with making those plans, and as far as i see it it is mostly the feanorians who organise the siege on ard galen...
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Orcs and trolls cannot currently travel in sunlight. So, raiding parties are limited to a 10 hour radius from Angband, or Morgoth's other creatures (Tevildo's cats, Thuringwethil's bats).

Presumably, the Dagor Aglareb takes place under some serious cloud cover.

At any rate, the most dangerous creatures nearby to Doriath are the spiders in Nan Dungortheb.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
They COULD camp in theory... but such camps are very vulnerable... and of course the clouding sky is a sure signal for any attack... i think 5 mph for angband orc soldiers seem realistic, cavalry would be faster, trolls slower i guess...

The weak spot of the noldor so far are the ered wethrin, they are ca 50 miles away from angbands possible westernmost postern gates and like the ered gorgoroth to the south could provide shelter or possible underground routes for troops leaving Angband. The ered luin are held by the dwarves... but northern hithlum also is a weak spot because in theory orc troops could enter from the north if they could march through the ered engrin and dor daidelos... so the Fingolfinians would also have to secure the ered wethrin and the lowlands of northern mithrim against possible intruders... they at least need scout outpost to detect any possible early intrusion at time to gather the forces needed to repel such.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Orcs and trolls cannot currently travel in sunlight. So, raiding parties are limited to a 10 hour radius from Angband, or Morgoth's other creatures (Tevildo's cats, Thuringwethil's bats).

Presumably, the Dagor Aglareb takes place under some serious cloud cover.

At any rate, the most dangerous creatures nearby to Doriath are the spiders in Nan Dungortheb.
How do we want to show raiding party tactics?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Errr... we are on tonight, right? I’m trying to listen in via Twitch and I don’t see anything. They didn’t lie to us, right?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Wait, so the acceptance of the Ban will be after the Dagor Aglareb? Not sure about that.

No need for Monster Mash.
 
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