Session 4-20: Episodes 9 (& 10)

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Looking at the Gantt chart, how do we begin the creation of Glaurung?
I don’t think we want to give any hint at all that Morgoth is creating a dragon. We could drop hints that he is working on something, like “We lost three Orcs to the project today,” but the audience would not see or hear Glaurung in any way before he gets out.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Here are my notes from this session:

Episode 9
  • Solution to the problem of sunlight for Morgoth’s armies: trolls will still turn to stone; cloud cover is effective but gives away the attack; Morgoth is back, so he would be creating the cloud cover; Orcs are able to withstand sunlight later in the book, so there is an opportunity to show Morgoth putting out his power in order to strengthen the Orcs (after the Dagor Aglareb); the clouds could appear at night; the Elves would notice the stars disappearing; Morgoth does not know exactly how strong the Noldor are, so the Dagor Aglareb is a test of their strength
  • Attacks on Minas Tirith, Maglor’s Gap, Dorthonion, and coast (Nevrast); Cirdan would bring ships to help Nevrarst; Elves get overconfident after this battle because of their military strength and how effectively they work together; this battle should be noticeably smaller in scale than the Dagor Bragollach will be; the Elves will be prevented from working together by a multifront attack in the Dagor Bragollach; Dagor Aglareb should be concentrated but strategic, so it would be devastating if it had worked
  • This battle needs to look different from Dagor Bragollach, keep with this season’s theme of reconciliation, and set up future battles
  • Primary attack through Gap of Sirion with goal to draw people from Hithlum and Dorthonion; Orcs sneak around to Nevrast; Morgoth did not expect the Sons of Feanor to get there, but they do and foreshadow the planned tactic in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad; B plot of this episode is vigilance of Maedhros and speed with which the Feanorian eucatastrophe arrives
  • Edhellos’ will is broken, but she may appear normal after the Spell of Bottomless Dread; she can be catatonic when she is found but appear to get better; she can prevent a message requesting help from reaching the Feanorians, so Maedhros comes due to his own vigilance
  • Clouds appear in the night; Orcs besiege Finrod in Minas Tirith with a big army; Minas Tirith is in immediate danger of falling to the army; Morgoth’s goal is to draw all the Noldor to Minas Tirith; Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon, Angrod, and Aegnor come to help Finrod and try to send a message to Maedhros but expect them to arrive too late; second Orc army (with some of Sauron’s forces) comes down the coast and sacks Vinyamar then attacks Fingolfin, Fingon, and Turgon from behind; Turgon gets a premonition about the sneak attack on Nevrast and returns Vinyamar to defeat it with Cirdan; maybe Osse could intervene to help defeat the coastal Orc army to send a message to Morgoth to not try to attack again on the coast; the battle of Minas Tirith looks bad, but Feanorians arrive after all and turn the tide
  • Rhogrin gets captured in battle; Annael vanishes, maybe due to Tevildo or Thuringwethil
  • Balrogs need to not be there or kill a named character
  • Edhellos needs to die; she could have a moment of lucidity and commit suicide, foreshadowing Nienor; Angrod kills and is killed by a Balrog in response to her death; Aegnor breaks his sword trying to get to Angrod
  • Finrod sends a message to Doriath requesting aid; Thingol dithers about whether to protect Doriath’s borders or help the Noldor; there are no more scenes from Doriath in this episode, so the audience assumes he did not send aid; Mablung arrives too late (in Episode 10)
Episode 10
  • Feanorians are mad about how useless Thingol was in the Dagor Aglareb, so they do not go with the ban; Fingolfin does accept the ban in an attempt to reconcile with the Sindar
  • Nothing more of Episode 10 was discussed tonight
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Are we planning to have Angrod get killed in this episode? Judging by the notes that looks to be the case.
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Yes - balrog rule strikes again. IF the balrogs appear in a battle, a named character must die. We'll be having both Edhellos and Angrod die in the Dagor Aglareb.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Tolkien didn't, but if they're not there, what are they doing? They can't be sitting home in Angband knitting during the battle! Morgoth can keep *some* of the balrogs with him in Angband during this, but it seems unlikely that he can't spare a couple of his best fighters for this battle.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Tolkien didn't, but if they're not there, what are they doing? They can't be sitting home in Angband knitting during the battle! Morgoth can keep *some* of the balrogs with him in Angband during this, but it seems unlikely that he can't spare a couple of his best fighters for this battle.
That posits the question “why didn’t they win if the Balrogs were there?” Not even an Istari was able to fight a Balrog without losing his life in the process, and Gothmog plowed through Fingon’s bodyguards like it was nothing.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Are we planning to have Angrod get killed in this episode? Judging by the notes that looks to be the case.
That is what the hosts decided, although I would like to make the case for keeping Angrod alive until the Dagor Bragollach.
  1. The Dagor Aglareb needs to be a resounding victory for the Noldor, and Angrod's death will seriously undercut this.
    1. Also, if Angrod dies after his wife betrays everybody, it will seem really insensitive of Fingolfin to boast that "save by treason among themselves Morgoth could never again burst from the leaguer of the Eldar" after the battle.
  2. The Dagor Bragollach needs to be a resounding defeat, which the loss of both Angrod and Aegnor together will help emphasize.
    1. The fall of Dorthonion to Glaurung and the Balrogs that come with the running flame will look less impressive if it only kills one lord of the Noldor, finishing up the last half of the job that Morgoth started back in the Dagor Aglareb.
    2. Maybe Angrod could be killed by Glaurung to show that Glaurung is now at full strength if Aegnor is going to be killed by a Balrog. This would be fitting since his son Orodreth will also be killed by Glaurung in the fall of Nargothrond.
    3. Fingolfin's motivation for his duel with Morgoth ("the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses") will seem less strong if only one of his nephews dies. The audience might ask, "Why didn't Finglofin challenge Morgoth when Angrod was slain? What makes Aegnor so special?"
  3. Angrod still has many roles he can play in the narrative:
    1. Defending the North - Angrod's primary goal is opposing Morgoth, which is why he sets up his realm in Dorthonion, on the front line of defense against Morgoth and within sight of Thangorodrim. He will be of like mind with Fingolfin in establishing the Siege of Angband and, during the Watchful Peace, one of the few voices reminding others that Morgoth is a constant threat and making sure the peace is watchful.
    2. Reacting to Men - One of Angrod's chief concerns this season has been Dorthonion's lack of forces, which the arrival of Beor's people to Dorthonion will resolve. Angrod's acceptance of Men into his lands as allies against Morgoth can be one point on a spectrum of the Eldar's reactions to the Edain.
    3. A foil to Aegnor - Angrod's focus on the Siege puts him in the perfect place to discourage Aegnor from marrying Andreth. Whether he and Aegnor converse about this directly or Angrod voices concerns about the Siege not lasting forever that Aegnor then repeats to Andreth, having Angrod be the primary source of this aspect of the reason Andreth and Aegnor cannot be together would allow Aegnor to place more emphasis on the difficulty of a mortal marrying an immortal.
    4. Reconciling (sort of) with the Feanorians - After the Feanorians arrive to turn the tide of the Dagor Aglareb, Angrod can grudgingly admit that, while he does not approve of their deeds, it is necessary to have the Feanorians as military allies.
    5. Reacting to the Ban - Angrod was there when Thingol issues the Ban, so he can help Finrod convey how serious Thingol is about banning Quenya. He could also be one of the Noldor who is more reluctant to accept it because of Thingol's lack of assistance in the Dagor Aglareb.
    6. Voicing distrust of slaves who escape from Angband - Distrust of escaped slaves would be especially powerful coming from Angrod after his own wife's treachery.
    7. A foil to Orodreth - I think Orodreth and Angrod will have different reactions to Edhellos' treachery and death. Angrod will focus on the war, but Orodreth will want probably to distance himself from it. This could be captured in a scene where Angrod convinces Orodreth to take up the rule of Minas Tirith after Finrod removes to Nargothrond.
  4. If we want to stick to our rule that a named character must die everytime a Balrog appears in battle, I think there are lots of potential reasons to not have Balrogs in the Dagor Aglareb or for Edhellos to be killed by one. The best reasons I have come up with for the Balrogs not being there are
    1. The Dagor Aglareb is a test by Morgoth of the Noldor's strength and watchfulness. He would not be putting forth his full force, and he would want to keep the Balrogs back because they are his best fighters and he does not want to lose them.
    2. The Balrogs could at this point be like Morgoth's bodyguard. In the book, the Noldor pursue the forces they defeat in the Dagor Aglareb across Ard-galen to within sight of the gates of Angband. Morgoth would have all the Balrogs with him, ready in case the Noldor actually tried to attack Angband.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
That is what the hosts decided, although I would like to make the case for keeping Angrod alive until the Dagor Bragollach.
  1. The Dagor Aglareb needs to be a resounding victory for the Noldor, and Angrod's death will seriously undercut this.
    1. Also, if Angrod dies after his wife betrays everybody, it will seem really insensitive of Fingolfin to boast that "save by treason among themselves Morgoth could never again burst from the leaguer of the Eldar" after the battle.
  2. The Dagor Bragollach needs to be a resounding defeat, which the loss of both Angrod and Aegnor together will help emphasize.
    1. The fall of Dorthonion to Glaurung and the Balrogs that come with the running flame will look less impressive if it only kills one lord of the Noldor, finishing up the last half of the job that Morgoth started back in the Dagor Aglareb.
    2. Maybe Angrod could be killed by Glaurung to show that Glaurung is now at full strength if Aegnor is going to be killed by a Balrog. This would be fitting since his son Orodreth will also be killed by Glaurung in the fall of Nargothrond.
    3. Fingolfin's motivation for his duel with Morgoth ("the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses") will seem less strong if only one of his nephews dies. The audience might ask, "Why didn't Finglofin challenge Morgoth when Angrod was slain? What makes Aegnor so special?"
  3. Angrod still has many roles he can play in the narrative:
    1. Defending the North - Angrod's primary goal is opposing Morgoth, which is why he sets up his realm in Dorthonion, on the front line of defense against Morgoth and within sight of Thangorodrim. He will be of like mind with Fingolfin in establishing the Siege of Angband and, during the Watchful Peace, one of the few voices reminding others that Morgoth is a constant threat and making sure the peace is watchful.
    2. Reacting to Men - One of Angrod's chief concerns this season has been Dorthonion's lack of forces, which the arrival of Beor's people to Dorthonion will resolve. Angrod's acceptance of Men into his lands as allies against Morgoth can be one point on a spectrum of the Eldar's reactions to the Edain.
    3. A foil to Aegnor - Angrod's focus on the Siege puts him in the perfect place to discourage Aegnor from marrying Andreth. Whether he and Aegnor converse about this directly or Angrod voices concerns about the Siege not lasting forever that Aegnor then repeats to Andreth, having Angrod be the primary source of this aspect of the reason Andreth and Aegnor cannot be together would allow Aegnor to place more emphasis on the difficulty of a mortal marrying an immortal.
    4. Reconciling (sort of) with the Feanorians - After the Feanorians arrive to turn the tide of the Dagor Aglareb, Angrod can grudgingly admit that, while he does not approve of their deeds, it is necessary to have the Feanorians as military allies.
    5. Reacting to the Ban - Angrod was there when Thingol issues the Ban, so he can help Finrod convey how serious Thingol is about banning Quenya. He could also be one of the Noldor who is more reluctant to accept it because of Thingol's lack of assistance in the Dagor Aglareb.
    6. Voicing distrust of slaves who escape from Angband - Distrust of escaped slaves would be especially powerful coming from Angrod after his own wife's treachery.
    7. A foil to Orodreth - I think Orodreth and Angrod will have different reactions to Edhellos' treachery and death. Angrod will focus on the war, but Orodreth will want probably to distance himself from it. This could be captured in a scene where Angrod convinces Orodreth to take up the rule of Minas Tirith after Finrod removes to Nargothrond.
  4. If we want to stick to our rule that a named character must die everytime a Balrog appears in battle, I think there are lots of potential reasons to not have Balrogs in the Dagor Aglareb or for Edhellos to be killed by one. The best reasons I have come up with for the Balrogs not being there are
    1. The Dagor Aglareb is a test by Morgoth of the Noldor's strength and watchfulness. He would not be putting forth his full force, and he would want to keep the Balrogs back because they are his best fighters and he does not want to lose them.
    2. The Balrogs could at this point be like Morgoth's bodyguard. In the book, the Noldor pursue the forces they defeat in the Dagor Aglareb across Ard-galen to within sight of the gates of Angband. Morgoth would have all the Balrogs with him, ready in case the Noldor actually tried to attack Angband.
I agree with all of these points.

Will Rhogrin and Annael be captured before or during the Dagor Aglareb?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I’ve been thinking of a concept spanning Seasons 4 and 5 of Sauron flitting in and out of the nearest Noldor kingdoms, capturing Elves, sometimes killing. There’s gotta be a reason why he’s called Gorthaur the Cruel, and he’s gotta be doing something for the next 400 years to make the Sindar and the Noldor fear him. He could be like a Boogeyman, like Michael Myers.

Example: hide in a closet and attack an Elf, like Michael Myers killing Bob in the original Halloween.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
I agree with all of these points.

Will Rhogrin and Annael be captured before or during the Dagor Aglareb?
The hosts said they wanted Rhogrin captured in the Dagor Aglareb and Annael to just vanish, taken by the vampires or cats, so I assume Annael’s disappearance could happen any time. In episode 4, he was picnicking on Ard-Galen with his family and Fingon told him that was a bad idea, so maybe he could captured while out in Ard-Galen before the battle.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
The hosts said they wanted Rhogrin captured in the Dagor Aglareb and Annael to just vanish, taken by the vampires or cats, so I assume Annael’s disappearance could happen any time. In episode 4, he was picnicking on Ard-Galen with his family and Fingon told him that was a bad idea, so maybe he could captured while out in Ard-Galen before the battle.
I could see that.

I’ve suggested having Angrod get killed very early in the Dagor Bragollach, maybe by a Balrog or the rivers of flame Morgoth used to precipitate his forces, including a full-powered Glaurung.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
That is what the hosts decided, although I would like to make the case for keeping Angrod alive until the Dagor Bragollach.
  1. The Dagor Aglareb needs to be a resounding victory for the Noldor, and Angrod's death will seriously undercut this.
    1. Also, if Angrod dies after his wife betrays everybody, it will seem really insensitive of Fingolfin to boast that "save by treason among themselves Morgoth could never again burst from the leaguer of the Eldar" after the battle.
  2. The Dagor Bragollach needs to be a resounding defeat, which the loss of both Angrod and Aegnor together will help emphasize.
    1. The fall of Dorthonion to Glaurung and the Balrogs that come with the running flame will look less impressive if it only kills one lord of the Noldor, finishing up the last half of the job that Morgoth started back in the Dagor Aglareb.
    2. Maybe Angrod could be killed by Glaurung to show that Glaurung is now at full strength if Aegnor is going to be killed by a Balrog. This would be fitting since his son Orodreth will also be killed by Glaurung in the fall of Nargothrond.
    3. Fingolfin's motivation for his duel with Morgoth ("the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses") will seem less strong if only one of his nephews dies. The audience might ask, "Why didn't Finglofin challenge Morgoth when Angrod was slain? What makes Aegnor so special?"
  3. Angrod still has many roles he can play in the narrative:
    1. Defending the North - Angrod's primary goal is opposing Morgoth, which is why he sets up his realm in Dorthonion, on the front line of defense against Morgoth and within sight of Thangorodrim. He will be of like mind with Fingolfin in establishing the Siege of Angband and, during the Watchful Peace, one of the few voices reminding others that Morgoth is a constant threat and making sure the peace is watchful.
    2. Reacting to Men - One of Angrod's chief concerns this season has been Dorthonion's lack of forces, which the arrival of Beor's people to Dorthonion will resolve. Angrod's acceptance of Men into his lands as allies against Morgoth can be one point on a spectrum of the Eldar's reactions to the Edain.
    3. A foil to Aegnor - Angrod's focus on the Siege puts him in the perfect place to discourage Aegnor from marrying Andreth. Whether he and Aegnor converse about this directly or Angrod voices concerns about the Siege not lasting forever that Aegnor then repeats to Andreth, having Angrod be the primary source of this aspect of the reason Andreth and Aegnor cannot be together would allow Aegnor to place more emphasis on the difficulty of a mortal marrying an immortal.
    4. Reconciling (sort of) with the Feanorians - After the Feanorians arrive to turn the tide of the Dagor Aglareb, Angrod can grudgingly admit that, while he does not approve of their deeds, it is necessary to have the Feanorians as military allies.
    5. Reacting to the Ban - Angrod was there when Thingol issues the Ban, so he can help Finrod convey how serious Thingol is about banning Quenya. He could also be one of the Noldor who is more reluctant to accept it because of Thingol's lack of assistance in the Dagor Aglareb.
    6. Voicing distrust of slaves who escape from Angband - Distrust of escaped slaves would be especially powerful coming from Angrod after his own wife's treachery.
    7. A foil to Orodreth - I think Orodreth and Angrod will have different reactions to Edhellos' treachery and death. Angrod will focus on the war, but Orodreth will want probably to distance himself from it. This could be captured in a scene where Angrod convinces Orodreth to take up the rule of Minas Tirith after Finrod removes to Nargothrond.
  4. If we want to stick to our rule that a named character must die everytime a Balrog appears in battle, I think there are lots of potential reasons to not have Balrogs in the Dagor Aglareb or for Edhellos to be killed by one. The best reasons I have come up with for the Balrogs not being there are
    1. The Dagor Aglareb is a test by Morgoth of the Noldor's strength and watchfulness. He would not be putting forth his full force, and he would want to keep the Balrogs back because they are his best fighters and he does not want to lose them.
    2. The Balrogs could at this point be like Morgoth's bodyguard. In the book, the Noldor pursue the forces they defeat in the Dagor Aglareb across Ard-galen to within sight of the gates of Angband. Morgoth would have all the Balrogs with him, ready in case the Noldor actually tried to attack Angband.

I agree on every single point. I am also concerned on a logistical note about a continuous battle that lasts for weeks in the same location. The death toll would be catastrophic...
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I agree on every single point. I am also concerned on a logistical note about a continuous battle that lasts for weeks in the same location. The death toll would be catastrophic...
Perhaps some groups of Orcs are lured into traps, we have some house-to-house fighting? Unless the Dagor Aglareb takes place over a single day like Waterloo. It could take place over a single day to show that the Orcs can’t overcome the Noldor with strength of numbers and that they need bigger weapons, ie Dragons.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
I agree on every single point. I am also concerned on a logistical note about a continuous battle that lasts for weeks in the same location. The death toll would be catastrophic...
Minas Tirith is on an island, so Finrod could probably be besieged for a while if he threw down the bridge or guarded it really well.

The forces from Hithlum and Dorthonion might be able to drive the Orcs north and fight back and forth across Ard-Galen, so the fighting doesn’t all take place at Minas Tirith. Then the Feanorians would arrive and turn the battle into a rout back to Angband.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Minas Tirith is on an island, so Finrod could probably be besieged for a while if he threw down the bridge or guarded it really well.

The forces from Hithlum and Dorthonion might be able to drive the Orcs north and fight back and forth across Ard-Galen, so the fighting doesn’t all take place at Minas Tirith. Then the Feanorians would arrive and turn the battle into a rout back to Angband.

So, I like this picture a bit better, but it still kinda requires Fingolfin and the A-bros (TM) to wedge their armies between what needs to appear to be a numerically superior for and a river, essentially trapping themselves.

Or it requires this Orc army to be of little enough threat that it just immediately tries to retreat from a more defensible position to the field where they can be encircled.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
So...we have concerns about balrogs at the Dagor Aglareb. Fair enough.

The frustration seemed to be that there seemed no obvious job for the balrogs to be doing. 'Guarding Angband' is a reasonable position. And it would lend a clear contrast to the Dagor Bragollach if there are a) no dragons, b) no running flames, c) no balrogs, d) sunlight issues for orcs and e) no multiple fronts. And f) no named character death.

From my point of view, the *only* advantage of killing Angrod off now would be to take the 'secret' of Edhellos' treachery to the grave (so Orodreth never finds out that his mother died a kinslaying traitor). But surely Angrod could keep that secret for a few more centuries and *then* take it to the grave.

Also, I am fine with Angrod being taken captive rather than being killed in the Dagor Bragollach, so he can be in Angband interacting with Díriel for the rest of the First Age rather than dead. But that is why it is helpful for anyone who wants him to die in the Dagor Bragollach to suggest what you'd like him to do between now and then.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
So...we have concerns about balrogs at the Dagor Aglareb. Fair enough.

The frustration seemed to be that there seemed no obvious job for the balrogs to be doing. 'Guarding Angband' is a reasonable position. And it would lend a clear contrast to the Dagor Bragollach if there are a) no dragons, b) no running flames, c) no balrogs, d) sunlight issues for orcs and e) no multiple fronts. And f) no named character death.

From my point of view, the *only* advantage of killing Angrod off now would be to take the 'secret' of Edhellos' treachery to the grave (so Orodreth never finds out that his mother died a kinslaying traitor). But surely Angrod could keep that secret for a few more centuries and *then* take it to the grave.

Also, I am fine with Angrod being taken captive rather than being killed in the Dagor Bragollach, so he can be in Angband interacting with Díriel for the rest of the First Age rather than dead. But that is why it is helpful for anyone who wants him to die in the Dagor Bragollach to suggest what you'd like him to do between now and then.
So our options are to:
  1. Have Angrod KIA in the Dagor Aglareb, which kinda defeats the idea of it being a resounding victory for the Elves, or
  2. Have him be captured in the Dagor Aglareb?
 
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